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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #576
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Yes, Illyrians have steppe in their mix and no anatolian
    Thracians have steppe and anatolian
    Dardanians have anatolian
    Greeks have anatolian

    Are you saying L283 has steppe and anatolian or just steppe ?
    The ancient L283s all downstream from Z615 (Z38240 Dalmatian/Illyrian , CTS6190 Etruscan, Z631 Roman, and the Z615 Mokrin/Maros) had healthy amounts of steppe ancestry (around 30% autosomal steppe) with no autosomal ancestry from near east/Anatolia.

    The Z600 and basal L283 from Sardinia had no Anatolian/near eastern autosomal ancestry, but also had very little to no steppe ancestry. Bit of a head scratcher, but probably the result of being part of an isolated population in Sardinia for many centuries. These Sardinian L283s were from the Naragic Civilization, which descends from Bonnanaro and Polada Cultures from northern Italy = Bell Beakers.

    Ancient L283/Z600 in Sardinia and Z615/Z597 in Balkans point to north —-> south migration from a possible homeland in/near Central European Alps. I’m under the impression that L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup and crossed the southern steppe en route to Central Europe based on ancient basal L283 from Karbino Balkaria in southern Russia and current living kits from Armenia. We need more ancient samples from area between Balkans and Karbino Balkaria to confirm this path, though.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    If we go by archeological data, J2b2-L283 being the Proto-Illyrian Y-DNA doesn't quite fit. They were already present in Balkans before the Illyrian tribes moved down south from Danube Valley during MBA LBA period.

    There they swiftly became dominant over the local Neolithic farmers of 'Old Europe', and then over Minoan Crete, while also occupying many of the Greek isles and possibly even the Anatolian coast in the form of the Ahhiyawa. It is fairly common for a newly-arrived warrior culture to impose a fresh layer of ruling nobility on any existing society, and Indo-Europeans seemed especially good at this when the preceding culture was Neolithic. Their last hurrah seemingly came with the conquest of Troy, calculated here to have taken place around 1183 BC. By then climate-induced drought had not only resulted in tremendous political instability in the entire eastern Mediterranean region (making the attack on Troy possible in the first place), it had also brought about the fall of the Hittite empire (Troy's major ally), and triggered migrations by the West-Indo-European settlers along the Danube and the South-West Indo-European settlers of Romania and - by now - the northern Balkans. They began pushing southwards in a tremendous wave of advance, perhaps as early as about 1250 BC. The possibility exists that the rise of the Urnfield culture from around 1300 BC (locally represented by the Gava culture - see map below) could also have been instrumental in initiating this migration.
    These people were in the process of forming into historically-recognisable tribes by this time, or at least did so as a result of their migrations. The proto-Illyrians (not a single homogenous group in itself, but seemingly all sorts of odds-and-ends from the Danubian communities) and proto-Epirotes soon occupied the entire western Balkan coast north of Greece itself. The former perhaps did not find enough land or resources, as they soon spilled over the Adriatic and into south-western Italy in the form of the Iapyges (seemingly between the eleventh and tenth centuries BC). The proto-Thracians took the south-eastern corner of the Balkans, everything between the Balkans Mountains (which run through the centre of modern Bulgaria) and the area around Thessalonica. The proto-Dacians - closely related to the Thracians at least - took (or remained in) territory to the north of the Thracians, in Romania and Moldova. The proto-Phrygians took a similar route but carried on going until they had crossed into Anatolia - in fact they may have begun this movement as early as 1450 BC. The story for proto-Armenians is far less certain, but they were also part of this general grouping at some point. The proto-Macedonians took the bulk of the mountainous territory between the Thracians and the Epirotes, while the proto-Dorians, Aeolians, and Ionians continued on into Mycenaean Greece and the islands of the Aegean, seemingly in superior numbers and with aggression enough to see off even the Mycenaeans.

    https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianBalkans.htm

  3. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The ancient L283s all downstream from Z615 (Z38240 Dalmatian/Illyrian , CTS6190 Etruscan, Z631 Roman, and the Z615 Mokrin/Maros) had healthy amounts of steppe ancestry (around 30% autosomal steppe) with no autosomal ancestry from near east/Anatolia.

    The Z600 and basal L283 from Sardinia had no Anatolian/near eastern autosomal ancestry, but also had very little to no steppe ancestry. Bit of a head scratcher, but probably the result of being part of an isolated population in Sardinia for many centuries. These Sardinian L283s were from the Naragic Civilization, which descends from Bonnanaro and Polada Cultures from northern Italy = Bell Beakers.

    Ancient L283/Z600 in Sardinia and Z615/Z597 in Balkans point to north —-> south migration from a possible homeland in/near Central European Alps. I’m under the impression that L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup and crossed the southern steppe en route to Central Europe based on ancient basal L283 from Karbino Balkaria in southern Russia and current living kits from Armenia. We need more ancient samples from area between Balkans and Karbino Balkaria to confirm this path, though.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    I have been saying this about the Balkars ( Karbino Balkaria) who are from the north-caucasus , for a very long time
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4o
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  4. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I have been saying this about the Balkars ( Karbino Balkaria) who are from the north-caucasus , for a very long time
    Looking at living samples in the Karachay Balkaria DNA Project, they are heavy on G2a1, G2a2, J2a1, and R1a. There is one J2b, but not sure if he’s L283 or older branch.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    If we go by archeological data, J2b2-L283 being the Proto-Illyrian Y-DNA doesn't quite fit. They were already present in Balkans before the Illyrian tribes moved down south from Danube Valley during MBA LBA period.
    It could be that Urnfield became known as "illyrians" later on by the Greeks OR illyrians were in balkans before reported years but didn't have a big united tribe until later on as is the case with most cultures/tribes. Don't forget that there isn't much written history from illyrians themself so this name may have been given to them by the Greeks. All we know is that illyrians existed for a long time and they liked snakes/serpents

    If you look at Greek history you can see that over time illyrians pushed further and further south possibly because they liked the warmer weather and then the slavs came pushing thracians east and illyrians more south

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    It could be that Urnfield became known as "illyrians" later on by the Greeks OR illyrians were in balkans before reported years but didn't have a big united tribe until later on as is the case with most cultures/tribes. Don't forget that there isn't much written history from illyrians themself so this name may have been given to them by the Greeks. All we know is that illyrians existed for a long time and they liked snakes/serpents
    If you look at Greek history you can see that over time illyrians pushed further and further south possibly because they liked the warmer weather and then the slavs came pushing thracians east and illyrians more south

    The illyrians where removed in bulk by the romans after the illyrian revolt ...it lasted 4 years

    Native peoples of the two regions of Illyricum, Dalmatia and Pannonia, revolted against the Romans. The rebellion began among native peoples who had been recruited as auxiliary troops for the Roman army. They were led by Bato the Daesitiate, a chieftain of the Daesitiatae in the central part of present-day Bosnia, and were later joined by the Breuci, a tribe in Pannonia led by Bato the Breucian. Many other tribes in Illyria also joined the revolt.

    these "illyrian" tribes fought the romans




    The dalmatians and pannonians made up over 75% of the illyrian forces

    After the revolt , the bulk of these people and families where moved to other parts of the empire .............illyria remained barren to a degree until the slav migration in late 600AD ........but goths moved through there 100 plus years before, maybe some stayed

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The illyrians where removed in bulk by the romans after the illyrian revolt ...it lasted 4 years

    Native peoples of the two regions of Illyricum, Dalmatia and Pannonia, revolted against the Romans. The rebellion began among native peoples who had been recruited as auxiliary troops for the Roman army. They were led by Bato the Daesitiate, a chieftain of the Daesitiatae in the central part of present-day Bosnia, and were later joined by the Breuci, a tribe in Pannonia led by Bato the Breucian. Many other tribes in Illyria also joined the revolt.

    these "illyrian" tribes fought the romans




    The dalmatians and pannonians made up over 75% of the illyrian forces

    After the revolt , the bulk of these people and families where moved to other parts of the empire .............illyria remained barren to a degree until the slav migration in late 600AD ........but goths moved through there 100 plus years before, maybe some stayed
    Illyria remained barren.....how you know that.
    The opposite is true. Was full of life.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Illyria remained barren.....how you know that.
    The opposite is true. Was full of life.


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    from reading this


    The Great Illyrian Revolt: Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9 Hardcover – April 5, 2019

    by Jason R Abdale (Author)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The illyrians where removed in bulk by the romans after the illyrian revolt ...it lasted 4 years
    Native peoples of the two regions of Illyricum, Dalmatia and Pannonia, revolted against the Romans. The rebellion began among native peoples who had been recruited as auxiliary troops for the Roman army. They were led by Bato the Daesitiate, a chieftain of the Daesitiatae in the central part of present-day Bosnia, and were later joined by the Breuci, a tribe in Pannonia led by Bato the Breucian. Many other tribes in Illyria also joined the revolt.
    these "illyrian" tribes fought the romans

    The dalmatians and pannonians made up over 75% of the illyrian forces
    After the revolt , the bulk of these people and families where moved to other parts of the empire .............illyria remained barren to a degree until the slav migration in late 600AD ........but goths moved through there 100 plus years before, maybe some stayed
    This could be true and a lot of these were taken by romans to join their army, could be why slavs were able to move in to that land quite easily

    But my point was that illyrians had already moved further south and made regular contact with greeks as they have written, these southern illyrian tribes remained (ardiae, taulanti, labeates, dassareti etc) and accepted roman rule (after some conflict first) byzantine mentioned illyrians until 700AD, the others probably became scarce hid in mountains or were taken to rome

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    This could be true and a lot of these were taken by romans to join their army, could be why slavs were able to move in to that land quite easily
    But my point was that illyrians had already moved further south and made regular contact with greeks as they have written, these southern illyrian tribes remained (ardiae, taulanti, labeates, dassareti etc) and accepted roman rule (after some conflict first) byzantine mentioned illyrians until 700AD, the others probably became scarce hid in mountains or were taken to rome

    IIRC, the illyrians first contact was not with greeks when they moved south , but against Philip of Macedon ( alexander the great father ) and the following many wars they had ........macedonians eventually made peace with them( illyrians) and then went on to conquer all the greeks

    Taulanti are one of the 3 main dardanian tribes

    The illyrians where not one group who spoke the same language or even had similar names ...............sent to me via a spanish DNA study 2015

    The strongest barrier (a) indicates that the main differentiation in the distribution of Illyrian names occurs along the northwestern-southeastern direction, separating the areas of Noricum, Veneti, Histri and Liburni from all other groups. The second differentiation zone (b) encloses the area of Dardanians, while the third boundary (c) appears between Dalmatae, Pannonians and Autariates. The fourth barrier (d) encloses Liburni within the northwestern area.

    Noricum = East Austria ( Vienna area )
    Liburians = modern coastal croatia
    Histri = Istria
    Dalmatae = dalmatians
    Autariates = from Montenegro lands

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    from reading this


    The Great Illyrian Revolt: Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9 Hardcover – April 5, 2019

    by Jason R Abdale (Author)
    Many auxiliary Cohorts were raised by that province. Someone remained. If you se Croatia today you will find the same cities of that time. Barren la and is out of question.

    Cohors I Delmatarum
    Cohors I Delmatarum milliaria equitata
    Cohors II Delmatarum
    Cohors III Delmatarum equitata c.R. pf
    Cohors IV Delmatarum
    Cohors V Delmatarum
    Cohors V Delmatarum c.R.
    Cohors VI Delmatarum equitata
    Cohors VII Delmatarum equitata
    And later the Equites Dalmatae


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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    from reading this


    The Great Illyrian Revolt: Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9 Hardcover – April 5, 2019

    by Jason R Abdale (Author)
    Can you provide the page, it does not say anything about barren land.


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    So there is E-Z38240 Posušje culture find and J-Z615 Mokrin find.

    There are multiple cases of bowls with four handles occurring in Posušje culture sites. These are typical of Maros culture, and especially of
    Mokrin necropolis. According to archeologists (Govedarica) this represents Pannonian influence in the Early phase of Posušje culture. Considering the Mokrin find, this sample being more basal this could represent the arrival of J-Z597. Though TMRCA is little bit off, This couldn't have happened prior to 1900-2000 BC. And Mokrin separated from J-Z597 a bit before. Interestingly this is just after Ljubljana culture, often on the same site.. If taken this way then Ljubljana people would have to have been some basal R-U152 or the like.

    So there are some direct archeological links between MBA Dalmatian Posušje culture and Mokrin. In this instance it has arrived from Mokrin direction. Few earlier Maros culture (not Mokrin, these are from an earlier study) finds don't look too different autosomally from Dalmatian finds.

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    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/


    Proto Illyrian/Dalmatian L283 Z38240 sample now on YFull YTree.
    Last edited by Polska; 29-11-20 at 01:48.

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    A person from West Hungary is tested J-L283+ and S23613- through YSEQ. This is a J-Z622 SNP so he is ~J-L283*, and at 15/37 very distant with the Armenian on YFull. He has a WGS on order, so we should see him on YFull at some point.

    Btw, ORC007 is not J-L283* as he has one positive read for Z622. To me ORC007 cannot be placed confidently below Z622 due to low coverage, although I think odds are he is J-Z600>YP157 like the other ancient Sardinians which are from the same site and timeframe.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    So there is E-Z38240 Posušje culture find and J-Z615 Mokrin find.
    There are multiple cases of bowls with four handles occurring in Posušje culture sites. These are typical of Maros culture, and especially of
    Mokrin necropolis. According to archeologists (Govedarica) this represents Pannonian influence in the Early phase of Posušje culture. Considering the Mokrin find, this sample being more basal this could represent the arrival of J-Z597. Though TMRCA is little bit off, This couldn't have happened prior to 1900-2000 BC. And Mokrin separated from J-Z597 a bit before. Interestingly this is just after Ljubljana culture, often on the same site.. If taken this way then Ljubljana people would have to have been some basal R-U152 or the like.
    So there are some direct archeological links between MBA Dalmatian Posušje culture and Mokrin. In this instance it has arrived from Mokrin direction. Few earlier Maros culture (not Mokrin, these are from an earlier study) finds don't look too different autosomally from Dalmatian finds.
    That timeframe for J-Z597 expansion into western Balkans may actually be right on. Expansions to a different region usually happen a few hundred years after the TMRCA lived (ex. I-Y3120 TMRCA and the expansion to the Balkans).

    Interesting. I read about these parallels between Maros and Posusje elsewhere too. On a different forum, user Pribislav elaborated about these parallels including Polada in north Italy, Sardinia, and J-L283:

    "I'm not saying Pannonian tribes, and some other tribes from the northwestern part of the Balkans (Liburnians, Japodes) weren't Illyrian, or at least Illyrian-related, I just wanted to point out that the bulk of Illyrian tribes we know from historical sources stem from the "core" Illyrian area in the mountanious regions of the western Balkans, which was almost unaffected by the Urnfield expansions. In fact, those core regions had practically uninterrupted ethnocultural (and likely ethnogenetic) development from the earliest phases of the Middle Bronze Age all the way to the Roman conquest of Illyricum. So while I don't dispute that Pannonian tribes, Liburnians and Japodes were affected by Urnfield (it's a fact, proven by numerous archaeological findings), it is clear that the dominant ethnic element among Illyrians as a whole wasn't derived from Urnfield, and is in fact much more ancient.

    Illyrian ethnogenesis started long before Urnfield, with the earliest phase (pre-proto-Illyrian) beginning in the latest phase of EBA and/or earliest phase of MBA (roughly 1900-1700 BC). This period is characterized by the appearance of new distinctive elements in the archaeological record of the East Adriatic coast, coming from the north/northwest, which resulted in the formation of new archaeological culture, called Posuška or Dinarska culture. Some of these new elements had their closest parallels in the Northern Italy (Polada culture) and Pannonian basin (Nagyrev and related cultures), as has been pointed out by Blagoje Govedarica. For example:

    B. Govedarica; Early Bronze Age in the East Adriatic; p.165-166

    Handles of the "anse ad ascia" type are best documented in the Apennine Peninsula and in southeastern France. Their mass appearance has been linked to the proto-Apennine culture ("Protoapenninico B"), the dating of which is not fully resolved, but is most often placed in the period corresponding to the younger phase of the Early Bronze Age in the South German chronology, that is stage Br. A2. In this sense, especially indicative is the typological development of "ansa ad ascia" in the territory of Sardinia and northern Italy, established by M. Ceccanti. In his opinion, this type of handle evolved from "ansa a gomito" of the Bell Beaker-pre-Bonnanaro type, and he distinguishes the following three phases in its development:

    - The first phase (type 1) corresponds to the handles of the "gomito" shape, which are present in Sardinia, as well as in the sites of the Polada culture in Trentino area and in the wider area of northern Italy.

    - The formation of the "ascia" shape (type 2) occurs in the following developmental stage. According to Ceccanti, it is a time of the developed Polada culture, i.e. the end of Early Bronze Age and transition to the Middle Bronze Age.

    - The third type of "ax-like" handle ("canonico" type) with a large extension, already belongs to the Middle Bronze Age.

    Presented evolution of ax-like handles is in agreement with the previous dating by M. A. F. Delpino and other Italian authors, where it is presented as a typical product of development within the Western Mediterranean cultural circle. Specimens found in the area of Posuška/Dinarska culture correspond best to Ceccanti's type 2, and within it not to the Sardinian, but to the northern Italian variant, found at the sites of Palidoro, Scoglietto and others. Individual "pseudobrassarda" findings from the territory of Posuška/Dinarska culture also have their best analogies in the late Polada culture of northern Italy.

    During the first phase of the Posuška/Dinarska culture, we are seeing for the first time elements which indicate a stronger connection of the lower Adriatic area with the wider Balkan hinterland and Pannonia. In this sense, particularly indicative are flat-botom vessels, with short curved neck and four banded handles, which were found in the tumuli at sites Rupe near Skradin and Đelalije near Šibenik. Vessels of this type were very numerous within the Nagyrev culture. The closest analogies to vessels found in the area of Posuška/Dinarska culture were found in the Mokrin necropolis, where this type lasted for a very long period. Analogies found in the area of Hatvan culture should also be mentioned, where these forms are considered as a typical Nagyrev element.
    It's almost uncanny how some already published aDNA samples support archaeological findings mentioned above. We have:

    - J2b2a-L283 sample from Posuška/Dinarska culture, dated 1631-1521 BC (Veliki Vanik in modern Croatia)

    - several J2b2a-L283 samples from Sardinia dating to the Nuragic period (1400-1000 BC), which developed from the earlier Bonnanaro culture, which was in turn (at least partially) developed from the Polada culture of Northern Italy

    - J2b2a-L283 sample from the Mokrin necropolis, dated 2100-1800 BC, belonging to Maros/Perjamos culture, which was developed from the earlier Nagyrev culture

    I would argue that even proto-Thracian ethnogenesis started several centuries before Urnfield. Just as the dominant ethnic element of proto-Illyrians ultimately originated in the EBA Pannonia and/or Northern Italy, the dominant ethnic element of proto-Thracians and their distant cousins proto-Daco-Moesians ultimately most likely originated in the post-Catacomb cultural area in the western Pontic Steppes (Babino, Noua, Monteoru, Coslogeni, Gava, Sabatinovka cultures). Both proto-Thracians and proto-Daco-Moesians were strongly influenced by proto-Iranian tribes of the Srubna culture. That's why many authors argue Thracian language belonged to the satem group, or was at least partially satemized. And in the end, that's why the expression Thraco-Cimmerian was introduced in the first place."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    That timeframe for J-Z597 expansion into western Balkans may actually be right on. Expansions to a different region usually happen a few hundred years after the TMRCA lived (ex. I-Y3120 TMRCA and the expansion to the Balkans).
    Interesting. I read about these parallels between Maros and Posusje elsewhere too. On a different forum, user Pribislav elaborated about these parallels including Polada in north Italy, Sardinia, and J-L283:
    "I'm not saying Pannonian tribes, and some other tribes from the northwestern part of the Balkans (Liburnians, Japodes) weren't Illyrian, or at least Illyrian-related, I just wanted to point out that the bulk of Illyrian tribes we know from historical sources stem from the "core" Illyrian area in the mountanious regions of the western Balkans, which was almost unaffected by the Urnfield expansions. In fact, those core regions had practically uninterrupted ethnocultural (and likely ethnogenetic) development from the earliest phases of the Middle Bronze Age all the way to the Roman conquest of Illyricum. So while I don't dispute that Pannonian tribes, Liburnians and Japodes were affected by Urnfield (it's a fact, proven by numerous archaeological findings), it is clear that the dominant ethnic element among Illyrians as a whole wasn't derived from Urnfield, and is in fact much more ancient.
    Illyrian ethnogenesis started long before Urnfield, with the earliest phase (pre-proto-Illyrian) beginning in the latest phase of EBA and/or earliest phase of MBA (roughly 1900-1700 BC). This period is characterized by the appearance of new distinctive elements in the archaeological record of the East Adriatic coast, coming from the north/northwest, which resulted in the formation of new archaeological culture, called Posuška or Dinarska culture. Some of these new elements had their closest parallels in the Northern Italy (Polada culture) and Pannonian basin (Nagyrev and related cultures), as has been pointed out by Blagoje Govedarica. For example:
    B. Govedarica; Early Bronze Age in the East Adriatic; p.165-166
    Handles of the "anse ad ascia" type are best documented in the Apennine Peninsula and in southeastern France. Their mass appearance has been linked to the proto-Apennine culture ("Protoapenninico B"), the dating of which is not fully resolved, but is most often placed in the period corresponding to the younger phase of the Early Bronze Age in the South German chronology, that is stage Br. A2. In this sense, especially indicative is the typological development of "ansa ad ascia" in the territory of Sardinia and northern Italy, established by M. Ceccanti. In his opinion, this type of handle evolved from "ansa a gomito" of the Bell Beaker-pre-Bonnanaro type, and he distinguishes the following three phases in its development:
    - The first phase (type 1) corresponds to the handles of the "gomito" shape, which are present in Sardinia, as well as in the sites of the Polada culture in Trentino area and in the wider area of northern Italy.
    - The formation of the "ascia" shape (type 2) occurs in the following developmental stage. According to Ceccanti, it is a time of the developed Polada culture, i.e. the end of Early Bronze Age and transition to the Middle Bronze Age.
    - The third type of "ax-like" handle ("canonico" type) with a large extension, already belongs to the Middle Bronze Age.
    Presented evolution of ax-like handles is in agreement with the previous dating by M. A. F. Delpino and other Italian authors, where it is presented as a typical product of development within the Western Mediterranean cultural circle. Specimens found in the area of Posuška/Dinarska culture correspond best to Ceccanti's type 2, and within it not to the Sardinian, but to the northern Italian variant, found at the sites of Palidoro, Scoglietto and others. Individual "pseudobrassarda" findings from the territory of Posuška/Dinarska culture also have their best analogies in the late Polada culture of northern Italy.
    During the first phase of the Posuška/Dinarska culture, we are seeing for the first time elements which indicate a stronger connection of the lower Adriatic area with the wider Balkan hinterland and Pannonia. In this sense, particularly indicative are flat-botom vessels, with short curved neck and four banded handles, which were found in the tumuli at sites Rupe near Skradin and Đelalije near Šibenik. Vessels of this type were very numerous within the Nagyrev culture. The closest analogies to vessels found in the area of Posuška/Dinarska culture were found in the Mokrin necropolis, where this type lasted for a very long period. Analogies found in the area of Hatvan culture should also be mentioned, where these forms are considered as a typical Nagyrev element.
    It's almost uncanny how some already published aDNA samples support archaeological findings mentioned above. We have:
    - J2b2a-L283 sample from Posuška/Dinarska culture, dated 1631-1521 BC (Veliki Vanik in modern Croatia)
    - several J2b2a-L283 samples from Sardinia dating to the Nuragic period (1400-1000 BC), which developed from the earlier Bonnanaro culture, which was in turn (at least partially) developed from the Polada culture of Northern Italy
    - J2b2a-L283 sample from the Mokrin necropolis, dated 2100-1800 BC, belonging to Maros/Perjamos culture, which was developed from the earlier Nagyrev culture
    I would argue that even proto-Thracian ethnogenesis started several centuries before Urnfield. Just as the dominant ethnic element of proto-Illyrians ultimately originated in the EBA Pannonia and/or Northern Italy, the dominant ethnic element of proto-Thracians and their distant cousins proto-Daco-Moesians ultimately most likely originated in the post-Catacomb cultural area in the western Pontic Steppes (Babino, Noua, Monteoru, Coslogeni, Gava, Sabatinovka cultures). Both proto-Thracians and proto-Daco-Moesians were strongly influenced by proto-Iranian tribes of the Srubna culture. That's why many authors argue Thracian language belonged to the satem group, or was at least partially satemized. And in the end, that's why the expression Thraco-Cimmerian was introduced in the first place."
    The Japodes are the
    The Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes; Greek: Ἰάποδες) were an ancient people who dwelt north of and inland from the Liburnians, off the Adriatic coast and eastwards of the Istrian peninsula.

    The Iapygians or Apulians (Greek: Ἰάπυγες, Ĭāpyges; Latin: Iapyges, Iapygii) are the same people as the Japodes........they are the

    The region was known to the Greeks of the 5th century BC as Iapygía ('Ιαπυγία), and its inhabitants as the Iápyges ('Ιάπυγες).[1] It was probably the term used by the indigenous peoples to designate themselves.[1] The name 'Iapyges' has also been compared to that of the 'Iapydes', an Illyrian tribe of northern Dalmatia.[2]
    Some ancient sources treat Iapygians and Messapians as synonymous, and several writers of the Roman period referred to them as 'Apuli' in the north,

    so Japodes have been in northern balkans with the Liburnians from 1500BC ..................they ( some ) moved to apulia in 1000BC

    I have been saying this for many years

    So the J-L283 , moved from alpine north to balkan south + italy over time

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