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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #601
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    Just got my YFULL results from my WGS test, I ended up splitting a known lineage by sharing SNP J-Y182183, the Belgian sample's mine under the YFULL line tree currently.

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    *live tree, sorry

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    This may be of interest to you, from a recent study. J2b2-L283 arrived before 2000 years ago in Italy, in mainland Italy probably at the end of the Bronze Age, and in Sardinia it might be arrived even before.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-021-00897-8




  4. #604
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for sharing this. We have the L283 CTS6190 Etruscan which looks to be an Etruscan branch of L283 and then the samples from Sardinia that pop up around the Nuragic Era which is likely linked with northern Italy. So maybe 3000-4000 years in Italy would be my guesstimate. It’s interesting to see their map of L283 with a hypothetical point of origin (origin of initial spread) centered in the vicinity of southern Poland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Thanks for sharing this. We have the L283 CTS6190 Etruscan which looks to be an Etruscan branch of L283 and then the samples from Sardinia that pop up around the Nuragic Era which is likely linked with northern Italy. So maybe 3000-4000 years in Italy would be my guesstimate. It’s interesting to see their map of L283 with a hypothetical point of origin (origin of initial spread) centered in the vicinity of southern Poland.
    Yes, I immediately noticed that the hypothetical point of origin (origin of the initial spread) centred in the vicinity of southern Poland and you came to mind.

  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Yes, I immediately noticed that the hypothetical point of origin (origin of the initial spread) centred in the vicinity of southern Poland and you came to mind.
    The big question still remains: how did L283 get to Central Europe? The provocative theory that it was a minor lineage somehow associated with the Yamnaya was first proposed, as best as I can tell, by Eupedia’s very own: Maciamo Hay. Some more ancient samples, much older than Mokrin, would be helpful. I wonder if the authors of this paper offer up any theories?

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    This paper must be a joke then, E-V13 spreading from Baltic and J2b2 from Southern Poland? Come on.

    J2b2 route must have beeen either North Caucasus => East Europe => North-Central Balkans => Western Balkans, North Italy, Sardinia.

    While E-V13 is a bit more tricky, but more North than Southern Poland must not be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The big question still remains: how did L283 get to Central Europe? The provocative theory that it was a minor lineage somehow associated with the Yamnaya was first proposed, as best as I can tell, by Eupedia’s very own: Maciamo Hay. Some more ancient samples, much older than Mokrin, would be helpful. I wonder if the authors of this paper offer up any theories?
    Indeed, more ancient samples, much older than Mokrin, would be helpful. There was a rumor that an older sample of Mokrin had been found between Moldova and Romania, but I never heard anything more about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    This paper must be a joke then, E-V13 spreading from Baltic and J2b2 from Southern Poland? Come on.

    J2b2 route must have beeen either North Caucasus => East Europe => North-Central Balkans => Western Balkans, North Italy, Sardinia.

    While E-V13 is a bit more tricky, but more North than Southern Poland must not be.

    As with all genetic studies, and particularly those based only on modern samples, conclusions should be taken with great caution.

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    As with all genetic studies, and particularly those based only on modern samples, conclusions should be taken with great caution.
    Blatant errors are ok for us, who just make guesses.

    But scientists with peer reviewed papers can make marginal errors, that's still OK, but putting an origin in and around Baltic sea? Come on.

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The big question still remains: how did L283 get to Central Europe? The provocative theory that it was a minor lineage somehow associated with the Yamnaya was first proposed, as best as I can tell, by Eupedia’s very own: Maciamo Hay. Some more ancient samples, much older than Mokrin, would be helpful. I wonder if the authors of this paper offer up any theories?
    Greetings Polska.

    Recently found a paper(?) on Polygeographer: https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-a...nt-in-yamnaya/

    If the rumors of the Eneolithic Moldova L283 are confirmed, doesn't this pretty much offer the best evidence so far of how L283 got to Europe?

    L283 being CHG -(contributes to Yamnaya CHG component)-> IE moves through the Danube to North Balkans / Central Europe --> Pushes into South Balkans.

    Would explain Estonian Samples, Polish Samples, Italian/Nurgaic Samples, Balkan Samples, and some sort of IE connection. Would be good to know what sort of grave sites the recent leaked L283 from Albania were found from, if they were in Kurgans it would further strengthen this theory. Also autosomal analysis of the sample and chronographic analysis of the relation of the Albanian sample to other Balkan samples could further add circumstantial evidence.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture

    The timing of ancient DNA seems plausible. The timing of the culture seems plausible. If this very old Moldovan sample is analyzed and it turns out Yamnaya like the I think we have a smoking gun.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Greetings Polska.
    Recently found a paper(?) on Polygeographer: https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-a...nt-in-yamnaya/
    If the rumors of the Eneolithic Moldova L283 are confirmed, doesn't this pretty much offer the best evidence so far of how L283 got to Europe?
    L283 being CHG -(contributes to Yamnaya CHG component)-> IE moves through the Danube to North Balkans / Central Europe --> Pushes into South Balkans.
    Would explain Estonian Samples, Polish Samples, Italian/Nurgaic Samples, Balkan Samples, and some sort of IE connection. Would be good to know what sort of grave sites the recent leaked L283 from Albania were found from, if they were in Kurgans it would further strengthen this theory. Also autosomal analysis of the sample and chronographic analysis of the relation of the Albanian sample to other Balkan samples could further add circumstantial evidence.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture
    The timing of ancient DNA seems plausible. The timing of the culture seems plausible. If this very old Moldovan sample is analyzed and it turns out Yamnaya like the I think we have a smoking gun.
    Nice post. Yes, Hunter’s article in Phylogeographer re: a possible connection between CHG in Yamnaya and L283 is excellent. He has also updated the article as more information and theories about CHG have arisen over the last year. I could be wrong, but doesn’t David Anthony still think that this CHG component came from Iran before the Caucasus? If his theory proves to be true, then I would think L283 would have to be a potential candidate, maybe even front runner, provided L283 originates in NW Iran near the Caucasus. They’re also saying that this CHG component left NW Iran and ventured north along the west coast of the Caspian to the north of the Caucasus around 5000 BC or earlier, so maybe that’s why it’s so difficult to locate any L283 south of the Caucasus or in Iran today. At 5000 BC, L283 was still a fairly young branch, about 2500 years old at that point according to YFull https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/. This old CHG would not have been admixed with ANF, so ultimately they may need to find a very old L283 north of the Caucasus with no ANF ancestry to test this hypothesis. David Anthony recently mentioned an area near the estuary of the Volga as being rich in CHG ancestry, possibly even the source according to Nick Patterson. https://youtu.be/-MOrEA84qvo. Anthony also mentions 6200 BC as the earliest this L283 appeared around the lower Volga after leaving the Caucasus. This also fits with the age estimate of L283, appearing around 7700 BC. We’ll have to wait for more ancient samples from that area to learn more, assuming they can even find viable samples. Like you, I’m interested in this rumored L283 Ukrainian/Moldovan sample, too. At the very least, assuming it’s a good sample, it should provide some more clues about where we ultimately come from and how we made it to Europe. I would think that we’ll need even older samples to answer the CHG question because I’m assuming the L283 Moldovan would show some ANF admixture based on its age and location. I don’t know much about these admixture tools these guys/gals are employing, so there’s a lot of ignorance on my end, but a lot of potential to learn, too. So, I could be way off with some of my comments here.
    There are a couple interesting things about L283 that still stand out to me as it relates to this Yamnaya discussion:

    1. We don’t see any old L283 out in Central Asia or further east. Lots of R1b Z2103 (sometimes mentioned alongside L283 in the context of the Balkans) found in Central Asia and even out in China. There are no Asian L283s.

    2. No ancient or living “old” branches of L283 found (yet) in western Anatolia that could be tied to some sort of expansion of early PIE peoples. R1b Z2103 is much more frequent there (Anatolia), L283 is basically non existent, except for some younger branches that originated in Europe.

    So, I think if there was a partial co-migration between L283 and Z2103, this L283 would have already been positioned to the west of Z2103, which originated on the steppe and was moving west. This might partially explain why L283 isn’t found further east. It was already more western than Z2103. So I am very interested in these ancient cultures found along the north coast of the Black Sea, especially around Crimea, as a possible source of L283 and a possible interaction sphere that saw some sort of partial fusion of L283 and Z2103, among others, during the Yamnaya’s westward progression. I’m trying to learn more about this Kemi Oba Culture and related cultures in the region. There are so many of them, it’s almost mind boggling. Maybe some L283 guys who were loaded with CHG were picked up in what is today southern Ukraine by Z2103 during its westward push into the Balkans. This still makes me wonder why Z2103 is so much more frequent in the Levant and Anatolia, while L283 is missing (excepting younger downstream branches with European origins). The recent paper on L283 and other rare haps in NE Europe estimates that L283 was in Central Europe, possibly as far north as Poland, as early as 4000BC. Their calculations could be way off, but let’s assume they’re fairly accurate. So assuming a migration across PCS from area near NW Caucasus/Black Sea, these few L283s were more focused on migrating up the Danube and into Pannonia and Central Europe. Baden Culture? Cernavoda seems like a possibility too, but I’ve read that Cernavoda also has ties to the Anatolian Language Complex and I’m not seeing any ties between L283 and this language complex at this time. Below is a link to this Kemi Oba culture. I can’t find much information about them beyond the Wikipedia link:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemi_Oba_culture


    Some other wild possibilities: Maybe L283 has a much older presence in Europe than we realize, connected with Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers in Central Europe or the Balkans? I don’t believe this to be the case, but I’m trying to keep an open mind when it comes to possible explanations as to its origins. L283 is a very European haplogroup, meaning it is almost exclusively connected to Europe and Europeans and no one else. This is why I wonder if it could have a very old presence in Europe. Counterpoints here would be the very old J2b (non L283) found in NW Iran and maybe estimated expansion dates for early L283 not fitting with MHG timeline.
    Last edited by Polska; 16-05-21 at 22:57.

  12. #612
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Nice post. Yes, Hunter’s article in Phylogeographer re: a possible connection between CHG in Yamnaya and L283 is excellent. He has also updated the article as more information and theories about CHG have arisen over the last year. I could be wrong, but doesn’t David Anthony still think that this CHG component came from Iran before the Caucasus? If his theory proves to be true, then I would think L283 would have to be a potential candidate, maybe even front runner, provided L283 originates in NW Iran near the Caucasus. They’re also saying that this CHG component left NW Iran and ventured north along the west coast of the Caspian to the north of the Caucasus around 5000 BC or earlier, so maybe that’s why it’s so difficult to locate any L283 south of the Caucasus or in Iran today. At 5000 BC, L283 was still a fairly young branch, about 2500 years old at that point according to YFull https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/. This old CHG would not have been admixed with ANF, so ultimately they may need to find a very old L283 north of the Caucasus with no ANF ancestry to test this hypothesis. David Anthony recently mentioned an area near the estuary of the Volga as being rich in CHG ancestry, possibly even the source according to Nick Patterson. https://youtu.be/-MOrEA84qvo. We’ll have to wait for more ancient samples from that area to learn more, assuming they can even find viable samples. Like you, I’m interested in this rumored L283 Ukrainian/Moldovan sample, too. At the very least, assuming it’s a good sample, it should provide some more clues about where we ultimately come from and how we made it to Europe. I would think that we’ll need even older samples to answer the CHG question because I’m assuming the L283 Moldovan would show some ANF admixture based on its age and location. I don’t know much about these admixture tools these guys/gals are employing, so there’s a lot of ignorance on my end, but a lot of potential to learn, too. So, I could be way off with some of my comments here.
    There are a couple interesting things about L283 that still stand out to me as it relates to this Yamnaya discussion:

    1. We don’t see any old L283 out in Central Asia or further east. Lots of R1b Z2103 (sometimes mentioned alongside L283 in the context of the Balkans) found in Central Asia and even out in China. There are no Asian L283s.

    2. No ancient or living “old” branches of L283 found (yet) in western Anatolia that could be tied to some sort of expansion of early PIE peoples. R1b Z2103 is much more frequent there (Anatolia), L283 is basically non existent, except for some younger branches that originated in Europe.

    So, I think if there was a partial co-migration between L283 and Z2103, this L283 would have already been positioned to the west of Z2103, which originated on the steppe and was moving west. This might partially explain why L283 isn’t found further east. It was already more western than Z2103. So I am very interested in these ancient cultures found along the north coast of the Black Sea, especially around Crimea, as a possible source of L283 and a possible interaction sphere that saw some sort of partial fusion of L283 and Z2103, among others, during the Yamnaya’s westward progression. I’m trying to learn more about this Kemi Oba Culture and related cultures in the region. There are so many of them, it’s almost mind boggling. Maybe some L283 guys who were loaded with CHG were picked up in what is today southern Ukraine by Z2103 during its westward push into the Balkans. This still makes me wonder why Z2103 is so much more frequent in the Levant and Anatolia, while L283 is missing (excepting younger downstream branches with European origins). The recent paper on L283 and other rare haps in NE Europe estimates that L283 was in Central Europe, possibly as far north as Poland, as early as 4000BC. Their calculations could be way off, but let’s assume they’re fairly accurate. So assuming a migration across PCS from area near NW Caucasus/Black Sea, these few L283s were more focused on migrating up the Danube and into Pannonia and Central Europe. Baden Culture? Cernavoda seems like a possibility too, but I’ve read that Cernavoda also has ties to the Anatolian Language Complex and I’m not seeing any ties between L283 and this language complex at this time. Below is a link to this Kemi Oba culture. I can’t find much information about them beyond the Wikipedia link:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemi_Oba_culture


    Some other wild possibilities: Maybe L283 has a much older presence in Europe than we realize, connected with Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers in Central Europe or the Balkans? I don’t believe this to be the case, but I’m trying to keep an open mind when it comes to possible explanations as to its origins. L283 is a very European haplogroup, meaning it is almost exclusively connected to Europe and Europeans and no one else. This is why I wonder if it could have a very old presence in Europe. Counterpoints here would be the very old J2b (non L283) found in NW Iran and maybe estimated expansion dates for early L283 not fitting with MHG timeline.
    Take a look at this : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ulative-Theory






    So technically, the L283 could have been a singular branch of the CHG component, that differentiated from M102, joined the westward Yamnaya expansion no?

    If you want I can quote these last 2-3 messages and we can move this discussion to the thread I made about L283, feels this one is another discussion (Proto-Illyrians) in the title.

    If the Modlovan sample is anywhere close to 6ky old, then it would explain Estonian/Polish basals, living basals branches downstream in France, Germany etc. And also Danube, Hungarian living basal, Italian living basal, as well as the Nurgaics. Not to mention this peculiar L283 or upstream in Iran.

  13. #613
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    Taking some graphics from the other thread.




    As you can see the Yamnaya had many expansions in waves, in different time periods, so did the Proto Indo Europeans.
    I suspect the first expansions into Anatolia and Afasinevo L283 was not part of, the second expansion into the Balkans it was, through the danube from where it spread North (Poland, Estonia etc), South into Balkans, and into Central Europe all the way to the low countries in small numbers, as well as turning into North Italy, Lombardy Tuscany and Sardinia.




    Would appreciate if we brought this discussion to the other thread, since this has nothing to do with Illyrians for a few thousand more years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Take a look at this : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ulative-Theory






    So technically, the L283 could have been a singular branch of the CHG component, that differentiated from M102, joined the westward Yamnaya expansion no?

    If you want I can quote these last 2-3 messages and we can move this discussion to the thread I made about L283, feels this one is another discussion (Proto-Illyrians) in the title.

    If the Modlovan sample is anywhere close to 6ky old, then it would explain Estonian/Polish basals, living basals branches downstream in France, Germany etc. And also Danube, Hungarian living basal, Italian living basal, as well as the Nurgaics. Not to mention this peculiar L283 or upstream in Iran.
    Absolutely, feel free to move over to the aforementioned L283 thread. Probably a good idea. I don’t want to bog this L283 Proto Illyrian thread down with wild speculation about L283s possible connection with CHG component in Yamnaya/western Yamnaya people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    This paper must be a joke then, E-V13 spreading from Baltic and J2b2 from Southern Poland? Come on.

    J2b2 route must have beeen either North Caucasus => East Europe => North-Central Balkans => Western Balkans, North Italy, Sardinia.

    While E-V13 is a bit more tricky, but more North than Southern Poland must not be.
    Hey man.

    Let's not be biased here...

    We need 20 more antic samples to be sure.

  16. #616
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    Do you guys think the Teutoberg forest Roman samples will ever be tested, bound to be lots J-L283.

    And are there any new news or J-L283 theories?

  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    Do you guys think the Teutoberg forest Roman samples will ever be tested, bound to be lots J-L283.

    And are there any new news or J-L283 theories?
    Not really relevant to L283, but we have our first sample from China now under J2 M241, specifically J-Z2432. They’re from the Sichuan area of China. This is an older branch too, which is interesting.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241*/

    I need to read up on these Teutoberg Forest samples.

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