J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

New development for J-Z638>Y21045. An Aromanian from Albania splits the J-Z38300 subclade. He tested PH1270+ PH4679+ and Z38300- Z38296-. This is the same cluster that was observed in Aromanians from Dukas, Albania with characteristic values of DYS388=17 and DYS389II=29, from the study: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x

With this result, the J-Y21045 TMRCA in Albania should be ~3600 ybp. This is the rarer "brother branch" of J-Z1297, and combined with aDNA data, it would suggest that J-Z638 itself likely expanded from or near the Western Balkans.
 
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 3.4330% / 3.43296136
59.8 I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
40.2 I3947_Croatia_Cardial_N_7836_ybp

Indeed as I've said long ago J-L283 came with Bell Beakers. Modelling Yamnaya doesn't work well, unlike for Vučedol which is ofc descended of Yamnaya directly. So these were around 60 % German BB and 40 % local Cardial EEF, and results are better calculating with the Dalmatian EEF rather than some others (which ofc makes sense as the find is from Dalmatia).

The most basal clade J-YP91 is a good mirror for J-L283, with the earliest split being W.Euro/N.Euro. And ofc this Sardinian now looks like some Sea Peoples immigrant.
 
I've been thinking that J-L283 is this Ljubljana and BB element. But J-L283 was found in Posušje culture already and that culture had nothing to do with Cetina culture, it is assumed they were different populations, with different way of life, despite living next to each other for hundreds of years barely any contact was recorded.. I see some Albanian R-L52*, he should be BB.
So if Posušje/Dinara are J-L283 then Cetina must be something else.. I thought about connecting J-L283 with Cernavoda and these Ezero Luwian cultures too, but your finds autosomal data says he is 60 % Central Euro BB or even Unetice and 40 % Dalmatian Cardial.
Generally diversity of J-L283 suggests they came from the North, and very important for this Posušje culture is so called Litzen ware, also apparently with Northern origin.

B. Govedarica, archaeologist, this is why I am reluctant to connect J-L283 with Cetina, though I thought they might be related to Ljubljana

Didn't want to go too much off topic on the other thread, so I'm posting this here.

I've been looking into this Lubljana Culture too, and potential link to J-L283. It does seem like J-L283 may have come from further north in the Balkans during EBA, as suggested by J-YP91*, J-Z585*, J-Z615* samples. Interestingly, I think I read somewhere suggesting that those EBA Montenegro tumuli (Mala/Velika Gruda, etc) were part of Lubljana Culture expansion people..
 
Didn't want to go too much off topic on the other thread, so I'm posting this here.

I've been looking into this Lubljana Culture too, and potential link to J-L283. It does seem like J-L283 may have come from further north in the Balkans during EBA, as suggested by J-YP91*, J-Z585*, J-Z615* samples. Interestingly, I think I read somewhere suggesting that those EBA Montenegro tumuli (Mala/Velika Gruda, etc) were part of Lubljana Culture expansion people..

Indeed. Govedarica wrote about some archaic links of Posušje culture with Ljubljana but he couldn't give some explanation. There is also issue of Litzen ware, common in Posušje. Per some views its point of origin are Eastern Alps. Also Ljubljana formed in few phases: Ig I, and Ig II, and apparently in Ig III Litzen ware appears. Ig I involved Vučedol, Ig II, Bell Beaker.

Slovenian Stane Gabrovec In the EBA this whole area (Eastern Alps) is dominated by the Ljubljana culture, in the final stage with its Litzenian phase.

Some have tried to make Litzen = Ljubljana but Govedarica said Litzen came little bit later. Overall there seems to be some connection.

Part of Ljubljana was so called Middle Adriatic Ljubljana culture, some said crucial part of Cetina (on the other hand Cetina had clearly stronger Eastern influences much stronger than most of Yugoslav writers were willing to admit).

Actually reading about this Adriatic Ljubljana some of its elements also seem Adriatic EEF, living in caves.. Apparently there is no info on funerary ritual. So Govedarica says probably some EEF Mediterranean tradition.. Adriatic Ljubljana made plenty of influence on proto-Cetina in pottery..

So looking at it could be some IE J-L283, R-L51's who mixed up with E-L618 (might have been dominated by EEF's here).. These Eastern IE influences found in proto-Cetina are lacking. So yes it seems Cetina might have been formed by some Eastern IE influence.

Their site is Varvara A which had some Nakovana (late EEF) elements and ofc Varvara is a major Posušje (J-L283) center.. So it kinda looks to me this Ljubljana IE element might have been easily the J-L283. It's hard to pinpoint exactly but some of these details do point in that direction.

So Posušje culture was younger Varvara A3 and Varvara B1 (this is Reinecke chronology) and Adriatic Ljubljana was Varvara A1.. Search for "Gradina Varvara"..

Hmm I'm thinking Adriatic Ljubljana could be some non Posušje J-L283 lienage..

I didn't know much on Ljubljana and indeed Mala Gruda is Ljubljana, not Cetina and it seems non "Adriatic Ljubljana" either that is younger Ljubljana, Mala Gruda had a tumulus. As BB and even Slovenian Ljubljana had no tumulii I think this practice came from the East. No cremations (that was Cetina trait). And Posušje took the tumulii burial too so that might be another indication of a link.

Overall I'd say there are various indications that J-L283 indeed might be linked originally to Ljubljana culture. I'm thinking J-L283 = Ljubljana and these could have morphed into Posušje later or part of them at least.
 
Interesting. So there were few Ljubljana's:
1) classical Ljubljana (Ig- in Slovenia etc.) Vučedol/BB mix or dominately BB with other influences (some claimed BB eliminated Vucedol elements here)
2) classical Ljubljana from Adriatic
3) Middle Adriatic Ljubljana (EEF admixed) only this part played part in Cetina genesis.

Ljubljana 2 had other than Mala Gruda also Rubež in Montenegro, but also Kënetë in Albania.. Kënetë also had plenty of Illyrian burials in Iron Age.. in Albanian. Near Kukës.
https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1983_num_13_2_1831

Kënetë Ljubljana dates to Bronze Age Ib phase per Govedarica.


Link in Albanian about this book whee Govedarica writes about Ljubljana, Cetina, Posušje/Dinara.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1990_num_20_1_1568

It seems we should have paid more attention to these Ljubljana finds, looks like these might represent some non-Posušje related early (EBA) expansions of J-L283 towards the South. TMRCA of some of these clades suggests such an earlier date.

Also seems these Ljubljana Adriatics adopted the tumulii from Easterners. As originally they didn't have them.
 
Govedarica quote, I translated to English (again L'age du bronze ancien dans la region de l'Adriatique de l'est):

It is interesting that some archaic forms from the first phase of Posusje culture point more towards older samples of Ljubljana type than towards Cetina which immediately preceded it. We have in mind the spherical dishes with cylindrical neck from Varvara A3, motives of musical notes from Nečajno and Privala as well as ladder-like decorations which are very numerous in this culture. Here belong also dishes with broadened rims which also correspond more to primary Ljubljana tradition than to exemplars of this type from the Cetina culture.

Can this mean that within this frame there exists an older horizon which predates Posusje culture, that is her first phase in the sense of our definition?! According to available strati-graphical data this cannot be confirmed. Namely the situation in Varvara A3 and in Ravlica cave IV, clearly indicates that most of these elements are chronologically fixed within the phase (Reinecke) Br. A2 and that typological link with the Ljubljana culture is very difficult to explain..

I was mentioning that the great find of Varvara was Posusje culture in A3 and B1, it was this pre-Cetina Ljubljana in A1. This occurs in the middle in A2. It might be that this unusual link is genetic or some proto-Posusje J-L283 people which still retained the Ljubljana elements. Of course Litzen ware common in Posusje appears in Ljubljana Ig III (after the classical I and II).

 
Interesting information. Good to know that Ljubljana culture spawned all the way to northern Albania.

In due time, we should have all these answers with ancient DNA. But in the meantime it's fun hypothesizing. After all, this field would be pretty boring if we had all these answers ;)
 
Some ancient and historical J2b-L283s:

EVvJKdPWsAA7yMm
 
I guess some things never change:


TSEPh25.png
 
Interesting information. Good to know that Ljubljana culture spawned all the way to northern Albania.

In due time, we should have all these answers with ancient DNA. But in the meantime it's fun hypothesizing. After all, this field would be pretty boring if we had all these answers ;)

Indeed, the unknown makes things interesting. There are no great many Slavic aDNA finds either but everybody knows they are Slavic, partly also because of archaeological evidence.

I wouldn't be surprised if these Albanian Ljubljana finds represent the entire J-Z638. Some other authors say more explicitly that Litzen (Posusje J-L283 find) ware originates from Ljubljana also.

Kënetë also had plenty of Illyrian burials in Iron Age.. in Albanian. Near Kukës.
https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1983_num_13_2_1831

Tuma/Tumulus IV from this Albanian work is older - that is this Ljubljana culture find mentioned by Govedarica. So you have details on Tuma IV in Albanian.

I was thinking all might fit here except J-Z631, but you see in Kënetë in Iron Age also plenty of Tumulii, part of Glasinac-Mati. I thought and still do J-Z631 is connected to it, but in addition to PH1602 who are indigenous there, Z631 might have started further south.

Other Ljubljana finds from Albania are Gajtan near Shkoder layer I, Nezir cave (Mati river canyon) layer IIIa. Generally Northern Albanian area where J-L283 is particularly strong.

So I see sort of pattern J-Z638 = Ljubljana (South Adriatic type), J-Y15058=Posusje. Interestingly Posusje had some Italian influences. That might explain both V.Vanik find and the Etruscan find, as the Etruscan was also Y15058 and I think autosomally he was pretty close to Vanik find.
 
Does anyone have an explanation as to why this haplogroup isn't as frequent in South Albania? Ghegs seem to have this haplogroup to a much larger extent. What are your guys' theories?
 
Does anyone have an explanation as to why this haplogroup isn't as frequent in South Albania? Ghegs seem to have this haplogroup to a much larger extent. What are your guys' theories?

You mean there are no Tosks or Epirotes that have it ?
 
You mean there are no Tosks or Epirotes that have it ?

Not that they dont have it, but only 6.8% tosks have it whereas 24.2% ghegs have it (according to gjenetika)
 
Does anyone have an explanation as to why this haplogroup isn't as frequent in South Albania? Ghegs seem to have this haplogroup to a much larger extent. What are your guys' theories?

Cause it came with a Gheg colonization of South Albania.
South Albania has its own version of J2b , Z631.
Gheg colonization occurred somewhere in the middle ages, and more likely closer to the present day than not..
 
Cause it came with a Gheg colonization of South Albania.
South Albania has its own version of J2b , Z631.
Gheg colonization occurred somewhere in the middle ages, and more likely closer to the present day than not..
No such colonization event happened. Your fake news attempt trying to spread this nonsense will never succeed. J2b-l283 has been in laberia a long time.
 
Not that they dont have it, but only 6.8% tosks have it whereas 24.2% ghegs have it (according to gjenetika)

IMO, there is a couple of reasons. One of them is because southern Albania has received a larger influx of migrations after the fall of Rome, which would naturally lower the percentages of other haplos. For example, J2b-L283 has the lowest percentage in Korçë county (less than 5%), while the highest in the Labëria region (10-15%). Also, in the Labëria region, there is some rare J-L283 lineages, like J-Y146400*, J-YP181*, and some J-Z631. So they have no connection with northern lineages in thousands of years..

Cause it came with a Gheg colonization of South Albania.
South Albania has its own version of J2b , Z631.
Gheg colonization occurred somewhere in the middle ages, and more likely closer to the present day than not..

Wrong. J-Z631 is observed in roughly similar proportions in both Ghegs and Tosks. So stop spamming this thread too.
 
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Pretty cool. Been a while since I've been here. Wish there was more basal lineages discovered tho.
 
I stopped reading when he claimed j2b l283 is from ottoman without showing a chart of strong j2b l283 in the region where ottoman came from. Also he defended j2a, j2a partnered with j1 is the likeliest of ottoman expansion into balkans, it is common in Iran and other middle eastern regions where ottoman came from so maybe some modern Greek j2a and j1 is ottoman, has someone looked into this?
 
Would like to share an interesting new BigY result for the J-Z597>Y146400 branch.

A person with origin from Krk, Croatia, is tested Y146400+ FGC64027+ FGC64043-, which means he is splitting YFull's J-Y146400 branch. An interesting result for this rare branch parallel/brother to the more common J-Z2507, coming from an island of Croatia. The new phylogeny should look something like this:

2hXqSDx.png


@Wanderer, your "Levantine origin" theory for J-Y146400 just went down the drain :grin:
I told you it never made sense.
 
Nuragics were non IE speaking people, Etruscans as well and i believe they will continue showing up this J2b2 - L283. They probably initially came with CHG rich populations. In peer reviewed scientific papers it's labelled as ABA (Anatolian Bronze Age) and it should be related to J2a and J2b2. It's a no brainer only Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians and Italians have this ABA to a certain degree.
 

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