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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #626
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    You must feel right at home, given all these Italian ancient samples coming out L283.

    PS: The Dinaric Taliban description had me rolling.
    What other haplos were the Daunians and Etruscans? Did any of them happen to be R1b-L23 or was it some other R1b clade? Afaik there was no EV13.

  2. #627
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    What other haplos were the Daunians and Etruscans? Did any of them happen to be R1b-L23 or was it some other R1b clade? Afaik there was no EV13.
    I think there was z2103 in the Daunian paper. About Etruscans, I am not too sure, there is too many samples to remember, but IIRC L23 was there, someone correct me if I am wrong.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    What other haplos were the Daunians and Etruscans? Did any of them happen to be R1b-L23 or was it some other R1b clade? Afaik there was no EV13.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I think there was z2103 in the Daunian paper. About Etruscans, I am not too sure, there is too many samples to remember, but IIRC L23 was there, someone correct me if I am wrong.
    Yes, there is at least one R1b-L23>Z2103 among the Daunians. There is two other R1b, one of them is unclassified below R1b-M269, and the second is under R1b-L23>L51>P312. Besides these, there is also one I2a-M223 sample.

    For Etruscans, their R1b seems exclusively under R1b-L23>L51 (ie. the one that's characteristic for NW Europe), and in fact, it seems to be their predominant Y-DNA haplogroup overall, based on the recent study.

    In regards to J2b-L283, thus far all Etruscan samples that we've been able to classify more specifically are under J-Y15058>Z38240, the branch of I4331 MBA Dalmatia. So this clearly suggests these "Etruscan" J2b-L283 lineages migrated from Northwestern Balkans, which is also backed up by the autosomal profile of R474 sample.

    On the other hand, according to the preprint data of the Daunian study, at least two Daunian J2b-L283 samples should be under J-Z638 branch, where the vast majority of Albanian J2b-L283 belongs.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Yes, there is at least one R1b-L23>Z2103 among the Daunians. There is two other R1b, one of them is unclassified below R1b-M269, and the second is under R1b-L23>L51>P312. Besides these, there is also one I2a-M223 sample.
    For Etruscans, their R1b seems exclusively under R1b-L23>L51 (ie. the one that's characteristic for NW Europe), and in fact, it seems to be their predominant Y-DNA haplogroup overall, based on the recent study.
    In regards to J2b-L283, thus far all Etruscan samples that we've been able to classify more specifically are under J-Y15058>Z38240, the branch of I4331 MBA Dalmatia. So this clearly suggests these "Etruscan" J2b-L283 lineages migrated from Northwestern Balkans, which is also backed up by the autosomal profile of R474 sample.
    On the other hand, according to the preprint data of the Daunian study, at least two Daunian J2b-L283 samples should be under J-Z638 branch, where the vast majority of Albanian J2b-L283 belongs.

    there are only 4 daunian croatian samples .......ORD001, ORD004, ORD014 and SGR003

    2 females and ORD014 is J2-L283 and the other male is ORD004 which is R1b .........is this your L23 ?

    all other samples in the Daunian paper are from Italy
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

  5. #630
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Yes, there is at least one R1b-L23>Z2103 among the Daunians. There is two other R1b, one of them is unclassified below R1b-M269, and the second is under R1b-L23>L51>P312. Besides these, there is also one I2a-M223 sample.
    For Etruscans, their R1b seems exclusively under R1b-L23>L51 (ie. the one that's characteristic for NW Europe), and in fact, it seems to be their predominant Y-DNA haplogroup overall, based on the recent study.
    In regards to J2b-L283, thus far all Etruscan samples that we've been able to classify more specifically are under J-Y15058>Z38240, the branch of I4331 MBA Dalmatia. So this clearly suggests these "Etruscan" J2b-L283 lineages migrated from Northwestern Balkans, which is also backed up by the autosomal profile of R474 sample.
    On the other hand, according to the preprint data of the Daunian study, at least two Daunian J2b-L283 samples should be under J-Z638 branch, where the vast majority of Albanian J2b-L283 belongs.
    Thanks for the great information as always, Trojet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    there are only 4 daunian croatian samples .......ORD001, ORD004, ORD014 and SGR003
    2 females and ORD014 is J2-L283 and the other male is ORD004 which is R1b .........is this your L23 ?
    all other samples in the Daunian paper are from Italy
    For the record, in regards to the Daunians, all the samples and SNP data I pulled out above can be found here (Supplementary Material > Data S1): https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...07.30.454498v1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    For the record, in regards to the Daunians, all the samples and SNP data I pulled out above can be found here (Supplementary Material > Data S1): https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...07.30.454498v1

    yes

    but only 4 are croatian/Dalmatian linked


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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    yes
    but only 4 are croatian/Dalmatian linked
    That's just "autosomal affinity" for all the Daunian samples, 4 of which have higher affinity to "Croatia EIA".

    Besides, according to the Supplementary Material, ORD014 and SAL001 should be paternal relatives, as they both should be under J2b-L283>>Z638>>BY23734 (this is to be confirmed once BAM files/raw data are published).
    Yet, in the above graph, they are placed into different autosomal clusters..

  9. #634
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    Vettor please leave my thread. You have been obsessed about albanians since I even joined this forum in 2015, spreading false information and theories undermining our history and ethnicity. Seek medication, seek help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Vettor please leave my thread. You have been obsessed about albanians since I even joined this forum in 2015, spreading false information and theories undermining our history and ethnicity. Seek medication, seek help.
    Let Vettor enjoy himself, and we can enjoy vicariously through him.


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  11. #636
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Let Vettor enjoy himself, and we can enjoy vicariously through him.


    Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum
    He still doesn't know the difference from I2a2 and I2a-Din. He is simply not mentally well and all he does is pollute his own mind and threads about Albanians. I'd rather people stop giving him attention.
    Last edited by Fustan; 04-09-21 at 22:09.

  12. #637
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    Does anyone have a compiled list of *all* ancient J-L283 samples? It would be nice to see a clear concise list of all ancient J-L283 samples.

  13. #638
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Does anyone have a compiled list of *all* ancient J-L283 samples? It would be nice to see a clear concise list of all ancient J-L283 samples.
    Check this thread out. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...light=l283+chg
    One of the linked images does what you are looking for.
    I just have to update it to include New Etruscan Samples and Daunian ones.

  14. #639
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Check this thread out. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...light=l283+chg
    One of the linked images does what you are looking for.
    I just have to update it to include New Etruscan Samples and Daunian ones.
    yeah something like the google sheets/excel pic is what I was looking for, would be great to have it updated or just to have a public link of the document

  15. #640
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    yeah something like the google sheets/excel pic is what I was looking for, would be great to have it updated or just to have a public link of the document
    Will try to update it when I find some time.

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    Perhaps J2b-L283 represents a Bronze Age, CHG/Iran_N related incursion into Southeastern Europe, via the Kura-Araxes culture (Bronze Age Anatolia)? It would be very cool to see such a movement, make it all the way to the Carpathian Basin/Central Europe, and take part in the Hallstatt/La Tene expansions. It could also represent a Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic expansion of Anatolian groups heavy in CHG/Iran_N ancestry.
    Last edited by Jack Johnson; 25-09-21 at 02:28. Reason: Additional info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    Perhaps J2b-L283 represents a Bronze Age, CHG/Iran_N related incursion into Southeastern Europe, via the Kura-Araxes culture (Bronze Age Anatolia)? It would be very cool to see such a movement, make it all the way to the Carpathian Basin/Central Europe, and take part in the Hallstatt/La Tene expansions. It could also represent a Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic expansion of Anatolian groups heavy in CHG/Iran_N ancestry.

    Its unknown how the surviving J-L283 made it to SEE, but the most likely path imho is Caucasus -> Yamnaya -> EBA Mokrin -> MBA Pannonian-Balkan Tumulus Culture groups -> Glasinac-Mati Illyrians and Eastern Hallstatt Pannonians -> Celts, Illyrians, Daco-Thracians.

  18. #643
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    His and your hypothesis are not mutually exclusive. Assuming Zargos/ North Caucasus origin, a vector through CHG over the Caspain shore is highly likely, as a means into Yamnaya introgression. But more samples and of older timeframe are needed from that region to confirm. And given the shore/water level might have changed, those samples might be unrecovable.

  19. #644
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    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38241/

    We finally have our first Albanian underneath L283 PH1602. He is from Lipljan, but it looks like his family originates in Ferizaj. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferizaj

    Also, there is an Albanian from northwestern Mat region who is positive for Z38241, but negative for PH1602. He is doing a WGS at the moment and should be up on the YFull YTree once WGS testing is complete.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mat_Municipality

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38241/

    We finally have our first Albanian underneath L283 PH1602. He is from Lipljan, but it looks like his family originates in Ferizaj. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferizaj

    Also, there is an Albanian from northwestern Mat region who is positive for Z38241, but negative for PH1602. He is doing a WGS at the moment and should be up on the YFull YTree once WGS testing is complete.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mat_Municipality
    That is neat.
    Does this mean the Mat tester could be upstream, or rather would it split the clade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    That is neat.
    Does this mean the Mat tester could be upstream, or rather would it split the clade?
    I don’t think the Mat tester splits the clade, but I could be wrong on this. He is definitely positive for Z38241.

    The PH1602 guy from Lipljan with roots in Ferizaj splits this clade underneath PH1602: https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y40852/. TMRCA around 800BC.

  22. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    I don’t think the Mat tester splits the clade, but I could be wrong on this. He is definitely positive for Z38241.

    The PH1602 guy from Lipljan with roots in Ferizaj splits this clade underneath PH1602: https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y40852/. TMRCA around 800BC.
    Fascinating. Thank you.

  23. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Fascinating. Thank you.
    Sure thing. I was wrong about the TMRCA. I meant the formation date, which is 2800ybp. TMRCA=1500ybp.

  24. #649
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    I've been gone for a couple months, have there been any breakthroughs or is it still the same speculations? :/

  25. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    I've been gone for a couple months, have there been any breakthroughs or is it still the same speculations? :/
    Same. And doubt anything will change, barring groundbreaking new discoveries.
    We are waiting on quite a few new papers, that might clear stuff further. But only details might change. The larger picture seems to hold.

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