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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #676
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    For instance Autariates fell down to Gaulish invasions.

    Some of them seeked refugee in Macedonia, others in Dacia and the third group joined the Gauls/Celts on further raids until they were pushed away. I suppose the third group who joined them on raids could be the subclade we are talking?

  2. #677
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    hi,

    We have an Early Bronze Age J2b2-L283 sample in North Caucasus, so i highly doubt it's Neolithic, i assume the entrance in Europe happened somewhere in 2000 B.C, whether non-IE or IE that i am not sure of. Some of the J2a were present in Neolithic though.
    That is what is tricky with this haplogroup, there is very contradictory infos about it.
    The easiest explaination for me is to put L283 bottle-neck exit on the coast of the black sea inside a population without steppe admixture.
    Admixture-washing is not a very common process.

    We have yet t o find a sample of L283 from the Neolithic, although per some old (2 year old) rumors there is a J2b2 in Moldova from the Eneolithic, but this one also in a way points towards the steppe.
    Moldova is in a "in-between" situation as you said. Also "eneolithic" is quite vague, Moldova during eneolithic, could relate to early steppe migrants or to south-eastern european farmers. Basically, without more information the "eneolithic moldovan" spoiler is not really helping. In fact, if I have to put J-L283 somewhere when it starts to diffuse again in 5500BP, I would put it on the black-sea cost in south-eastern Europe.

    I am sure you will not agree with most of my conclusions.
    Who knows ? I'm open to be proven wrong, and always open to accept that what I consider the "most-likely" today might be invalidated in the future :) .
    I will read that later today (tonight for me).

    As for the Nuragics, they are from 1300BC. Meanwhile we have ~2000BC Maros as well as Dalmatia samples, with 30-50% Steppe.
    It helps to keep in mind that Sardinia was insulated to most movements, at least to a higher degree than Pannonia/Balkans, and if these L283 Nuragics were part of a male dominated movement, their autosomal signature would be close to zero within 5-6 generations(1/2^n formula IIRC).
    One could claim that 50% steppe just need one generation to be generated, and if you find a Steppe-like mt-DNA ... the complement needs to be something not from the steppe.
    In fact, both samples can be explained with the right "story" created around.
    I consider ancient DNA usefull, but ancient DNA mainly helps for dominant haplogroups, for rare ones it is less helpfull.
    Mainly, one single line of from M241 to L283 that propagated between 9500 and 5500BP survived until today, thus these lines cannot have reach a "high" level of dispersion. Therefore, it is unlikely to find it in ancient sample between these two dates. In fact finding a neolithic sample would be crazy lucky.
    In fact, when we look at haplogroups with ~several millenia bottle neck, most of the time no ancient samples are found.

    I would rather believe dynamics of haplogroup (time of spread, location, speed of diffusion), when a male population is conquering new territories, the related haplogroups are spreading very fast. We are not seing that for J-L283 during the main steppe expansion. That's what make's the "steppe" hypothesis suspicious to me.

    Anyway, hofully new ancient-samples/modern-lines will be found and help to find which model is the good one :).
    G.

  3. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Can someone elaborate if there's any connection with J2b2-L283 and the ancient Celts? There was some speculation about the both being related a while ago.

    There were different gene flows between Celts and Illyrians. First, both Celts and Ilyrians might have been from the Tumulus culture horizon, even from a centre in Southern Germany. Secondly, in the Urnfield period, again, they were part of the same Urnfield horizon and the Pannonian-Illyrian Middle Danubian Urnfielders were conneted to the Alpine-Rhenish region, more so than the Daco-Thracian South Eastern Urnfielders, which being connected with Lusatians rather, by trade and culture at least.
    Next, with Hallstatt, Daco-Thracian and Pannonian-Illyrian elements mixed and influenced more Western groups, presumably also the ancestors of Celts.
    And last but not least, "real Celts" of Western Hallstatt and later La Tene did mix and push into Pannonia-Balkans, presumably with some backflow, since the La Tene Celts formed wide ranging networks, through which elites, warriors, artisans, traders and priests moved. So if on one end a lot of E-V13 and J-L283 was assimilated, as it was, in Pannonia and the Balkans, then some of it probably appeared at least in the Central and a little bit even at the Western end too.

  4. #679
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    At this point, it's all a speculation based on modern distribution of some younger subclades
    On top of the modern distribution, there is the moment at which the concerned descendents started to diverge.
    To experience an intense diversification sequence, an haplogroup needs to be carried by an expanding population, nearly ~20 branches expanded from Z631 around 800BC, that's a lot.

    A later diffusion, for entropic consideration, cannot separate haplogroups (beyond founder-effects). Thus, if the dispersion happens later than the diversication, diversified haplogroups should be observed in all locations where the later diffusion happened.

    This is basically what is seen for R-L51, descendants are geographically separated because diversification happened at the same time than the expansion.

    Thus, for these reasons a dispersion of J-Z631 with the Hallstatt/La Tène populations seems fairly likely.
    A diffusion by the roman empire didn't makes much sense in terms of spatial distribution and moment when the haplogroup started to spread.
    For sure, Romans induced a lot a movement inside the empire and affected the haplogroup distribution, but it seems unsufficient to me to explain the modern distribution.

  5. #680
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    In short, currently there is no evidence any J2b-L283 was among the Celts or Proto-Celts. At this point, it's all a speculation based on modern distribution of some younger subclades (many of which could be the result of Roman mediated migration. Ex: the two most ancient J-Z631s are precisely found in a Roman context or period, one from Italy and the other from the Balkans).
    Furthermore, there have been zero J2b-L283 from any cultures that's connected to the Celts (they have been predominantly R1b-L51) and Central/Western Europe is far better sampled than the Balkans.
    Sure, it's quite possible some J2b-L283 lineages could've been incorporated by the Celtic expansions to the west out of northern Balkans (which at best should've been in the minority), but we really need aDNA evidence for this, which at the moment doesn't even exist.
    Oh that was what prompted me to asking, I could've sworn I saw someone say there was a Celtic-related J2-L283 sample, I guess not. Is there a place where I can easily as a layman view all of the ancient J2-L283 samples? I wish there was a Google Spreadsheet or something which listed every single ancient J2-L283 sample, location, date and culture. It would've been really nice to have.

    Thanks for clearing everything up though, your post makes total sense and I agree with it. Much more likely that the younger clades were spread with the Romans rather than it being Celtic.

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Oh that was what prompted me to asking, I could've sworn I saw someone say there was a Celtic-related J2-L283 sample, I guess not. Is there a place where I can easily as a layman view all of the ancient J2-L283 samples? I wish there was a Google Spreadsheet or something which listed every single ancient J2-L283 sample, location, date and culture. It would've been really nice to have.

    Thanks for clearing everything up though, your post makes total sense and I agree with it. Much more likely that the younger clades were spread with the Romans rather than it being Celtic.
    Or by late Celts through backflow from the Pannonian-Illyrian sphere.

  7. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    On top of the modern distribution, there is the moment at which the concerned descendents started to diverge.
    To experience an intense diversification sequence, an haplogroup needs to be carried by an expanding population, nearly ~20 branches expanded from Z631 around 800BC, that's a lot.
    A later diffusion, for entropic consideration, cannot separate haplogroups (beyond founder-effects). Thus, if the dispersion happens later than the diversication, diversified haplogroups should be observed in all locations where the later diffusion happened.
    This is basically what is seen for R-L51, descendants are geographically separated because diversification happened at the same time than the expansion.
    Thus, for these reasons a dispersion of J-Z631 with the Hallstatt/La Tène populations seems fairly likely.
    A diffusion by the roman empire didn't makes much sense in terms of spatial distribution and moment when the haplogroup started to spread.
    For sure, Romans induced a lot a movement inside the empire and affected the haplogroup distribution, but it seems unsufficient to me to explain the modern distribution.
    Yes, we should not rule out that possibility. However, the problem is there is zero aDNA J2b-L283 from Hallstatt/La Tène, and there is quite a few samples already. Odds are, J-Z631 being such an expansive subclade, would've been found by now in Central Europe before the common era. Also, in the yet to be published paper, which seems to have a lot of Celtic samples, there is zero J-Z631 as you can see here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post812982

    So yeah, at this point it remains a speculation or a hypothesis :)

    Another thing, if you look right upstream of J-Z631, the parallel/brother lineage has been found in the western Adriatic (Chieti, Italy): https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8421/

    And nevermind that all other upstream clades have been observed in the western Balkans, starting with J-Y21045 which you correctly pointed out as showing an old diversity in the western Balkans, but I would say not the only such J-L283>Z597 subclade by any means. YFull will not show the whole picture :)

    Anyways, let's wait and see where J-Z631 shows up before the common era..
    Last edited by Trojet; 14-11-21 at 20:32.

  8. #683
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Or by late Celts through backflow from the Pannonian-Illyrian sphere.
    Apparently there are quite a few Celtic samples, and none show J2-L283, don't you think we would've had a Celtic J2b2 sample by now?

  9. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Oh that was what prompted me to asking, I could've sworn I saw someone say there was a Celtic-related J2-L283 sample, I guess not. Is there a place where I can easily as a layman view all of the ancient J2-L283 samples? I wish there was a Google Spreadsheet or something which listed every single ancient J2-L283 sample, location, date and culture. It would've been really nice to have.
    Thanks for clearing everything up though, your post makes total sense and I agree with it. Much more likely that the younger clades were spread with the Romans rather than it being Celtic.
    Since it's been suggested, we're actually working on such a spreadsheet/map for ancient J2b-L283 samples. I'll update the forums when it's available.

  10. #685
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Since it's been suggested, we're actually working on such a spreadsheet/map for ancient J2b-L283 samples. I'll update the forums when it's available.
    I'm so happy to hear that. It's kind of a pain to find them now for me as a layman so I'll be happy to look at the spreadsheet once it's up. I also hope there will be a spreadsheet for ancient R-L23 and E-V13 samples , basically all haplogroups relating to Albanians. Obviously I prioritize the J2b2 spreadsheet since I am an honored member of this haplo myself but it would also be nice to have an organized list of the other haplos that make up our ethnicity as well

  11. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Also, in the yet to be published paper, which by all indications has a lot of Celtic samples, there is zero J-Z631 as you can see here:
    That's very interesting ... a lot of J-Z2432 and subclades ...
    Is there any list with the GPS coordinates of the samples ?

    So yeah, at this point it remains a speculation or a hypothesis :)
    Oh sure, it remains a model, that can be proven wrong.

    J-L283 peoples ... probably the best guys at playing hide-and-seek in Europe since Bronze age ...

  12. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    That's very interesting ... a lot of J-Z2432 and subclades ...
    Is there any list with the GPS coordinates of the samples ?
    I very much doubt we'll find any J-Z2432 here (i.e. "the South Asian branch"). So those specific ones are very likely false positives. I've seen this software erroneously assign Y haplogroups to female samples especially.

    All there is available right now is the raw data of the ancient samples (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...891?show=reads), based on which haplogroups and autosomal DNA can be extracted. We'll have to wait until the actual paper is published to get all the other details, which I'm guessing will be soon.

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    I very much doubt we'll find any J-Z2432 here
    Yep, that was my main concern ... "teleporting" Indians there in 500BC would be "surprising" (and them having to vanish totally before modern times would be weird too).

    Are you familiar with this software ? Because the output sounds not very intuitive to me.
    What kind of information is supposed to carry the percentage number between parenthesis ? Some value are negative ...

    Is there somewhere a paper with a proper qualification of this tool ?
    Like an estimation of the mixing matrix between "reconstructed haplogroup" vs "real ones".

    Naïvely, if these individuals are not female as you suggest, could this tool misclassify L283 as Z2432 ?

  14. #689
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Should point out that we have more information for some of these samples:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    We already have info for some samples, from the CarrionOlalde2021 supplementary tables (I am posting male results only, with haplogroups assigned by teepean47):
    I5689; 750-400 BC; Grofove njive; Slovenia_IA; I2a1b1a1b1a1a-Y3721>Y3670>L1229>Z2069>Z2059>Z2068>Y3672 (xY11521,Y10648,Y7243,FGC15111,Y13325,Y31802)
    I5690; 750-400 BC; Grofove njive; Slovenia_IA; R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2 (xS255,L196,Z49,FGC22500)
    I5691; 787-544 BC; Kapiteljska njive, Novo mesto; Slovenia_IA; J2b2a1a1a-L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z597 (xZ2507,FGC64029)
    I5696; 401-208 BC; Obrežje; Slovenia_IA; R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1a1a1a1a1a1a1a-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>M222>DF85>S668>DF97 (xFGC19851,A1332)
    I12907; 356-57 BC; Uitgeest-Dorregeest, Noord-Holland; Netherlands_IA; R1b1a1b1a1a1c1a-U106>S263>S264>S497
    I19358; 300-200 BC; Faux Vesigneul, Chemin de Coupetz, Marne; France_GrandEst_IA2; R1b1a1b1a1a2-P312
    I19359; 300-200 BC; Faux Vesigneul, Chemin de Coupetz, Marne; France_GrandEst_IA2; R1b1a1b-M269
    I19356; 300-200 BC; Faux Vesigneul, Chemin de Coupetz, Marne; France_GrandEst_IA2; G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>Z16775 (xZ16770,Z41654,Z41659,Z45000,FT6200,Z41151)
    I20817; 300-200 BC; Faux Vesigneul, Chemin de Coupetz, Marne; France_GrandEst_IA2; R1b1a1b1a1a2b2b1-U152>Z36>CTS5531>CTS9981>Z37
    I19916; 400-200 BC; Roquepertuse, Velaux, Bouches-du-Rhône; France_SouthEast_IA2; R1b1a1b1a1a2b1c1a1-U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z51>L562 (xCTS6554,S1491,F1947.2)
    I13623; 400-200 BC; Roquepertuse, Velaux, Bouches-du-Rhône; France_SouthEast_IA2; R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a4d1-L21>DF13>Z253>Z19670
    I13620; 400-200 BC; Roquepertuse, Velaux, Bouches-du-Rhône; France_SouthEast_IA2; R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2 (xS255,Z49,FGC22513)
    I13621; 400-200 BC; Roquepertuse, Velaux, Bouches-du-Rhône; France_SouthEast_IA2; R1b1a1-P297 (xA9455,Z216,L356,M222,S691,Z16336,Z17830,Z16541,Z Z38,GG746)
    Additionally, I heard there should be around 20 samples from Croatia and a few more from Slovenia included in this paper.

  15. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    Yep, that was my main concern ... "teleporting" Indians there in 500BC would be "surprising" (and them having to vanish totally before modern times would be weird too).

    Are you familiar with this software ? Because the output sounds not very intuitive to me.
    What kind of information is supposed to carry the percentage number between parenthesis ? Some value are negative ...

    Is there somewhere a paper with a proper qualification of this tool ?
    Like an estimation of the mixing matrix between "reconstructed haplogroup" vs "real ones".

    Naïvely, if these individuals are not female as you suggest, could this tool misclassify L283 as Z2432 ?
    You can also cross check the Y haplogroups by following this and downloading the .txt file: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....461#post812461

    This one should be more reliable, as there isn't any J-Z2432, but overall they're the same.

    For the rest, we need to wait until the paper is published..

  16. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Should point out that we have more information for some of these samples:
    Additionally, I heard there should be around 20 samples from Croatia and a few more from Slovenia included in this paper.
    Regarding the I2a1b sample in this paper, I cannot find where this region "Grofove njive" is. I assume this sample is not related to the Illyrians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Regarding the I2a1b sample in this paper, I cannot find where this region "Grofove njive" is. I assume this sample is not related to the Illyrians?
    It's hard to say at this point without further information. Iron Age Slovenia had significant Celtic influence, and the samples under R1b-L51 may be just that since it's found in Iron Age France and Netherlands as well.

    This I2a is under I2a-M223, so not related to I2a-Y3120 formerly "I2a Dinaric".

  18. #693
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    I5691; 787-544 BC; Kapiteljska njive, Novo mesto; Slovenia_IA; J2b2a1a1a-L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z597 (xZ2507,FGC64029)
    Negative to Z2507, it splitted from the Z631 line around 2400BC. Thus, not relevant for a potential Z631-La Tène relation.

    Anyway, this Z597 sample is a very good example to illustrates my position against ancient DNA to track rare haplogroups ... you need to be super-lucky.
    If in a large list you find 1 single sample, it is enough to prove that the haplogroup was inside this population. But the likelyhood of missing an haplogroup with the same frequence inside the sampled population is fairly high.

    Thus unless finding it somewhere else, the depth of ancient DNA sample is not sufficient to exclude the presence of an haplogroup.
    At that time, there is ~20 line of Z631 that will survive until modern day, if I have time, I'll look at similarly diffused R1b subclades to see how many did have ancient DNA coverage (that is a simple way to evaluate the effective depth of ancient DNA sampling).

  19. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    Thus unless finding it somewhere else, the depth of ancient DNA sample is not sufficient to exclude the presence of an haplogroup.
    At that time, there is ~20 line of Z631 that will survive until modern day, if I have time, I'll look at similarly diffused R1b subclades to see how many did have ancient DNA coverage (that is a simple way to evaluate the effective depth of ancient DNA sampling).
    Yes, this is a good point. J-Z631 TMRCA at ~2800 ybp is kind of young in comparison to most available aDNA samples, so it may not be easy finding it before ~400 BC.

    Are you J-Z631 btw? One of my ancestral lines is J-Z631 :)

  20. #695
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I might have missed it upstream in the comments, but the ancient L283 from Albania will be in the following paper:

    ”The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge Between West Asia & Europe”

    According to some users at Anthrogenica, the paper was submitted to Science in August/September for academic review. Maybe we’ll luck out and have it before Christmas. There are some heavy hitters associated with this paper: Iosif Lazaridis, David Reich, and Henry Shephard. Evidently Henry Shephard is “Mr Moldova”, so I’m thinking this paper might shed some light on this rumored L283 from Moldova.

    https://ku-dk.academia.edu/DrHenrySh...urriculumVitae

    This Budjak Culture is from the NW Black Sea region and is in the zone in terms of dates.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak



    The other big paper hopefully not too far away:

    “Genomic Signals of Continuity and Admixture in the Caucasus” from Ghalichi Ayshin.

    Lots of samples in this one (more than Wang 2019) with much more sampling from the NW Caucasus. Perhaps this will yield some L283 older than KDC001. There’s some speculation about a sample that dates back to 6100BC with EHG from NW Caucasus. Also, there is some very ancient R1b Z2103 from Dagestan rumored to be in this paper. The author works for Max Planck.

    Davidski over at Eurogenes recently took down his old blog entry claiming L283 arrived in Europe with Mediterranean traders from the near East. Disappeared like a fart in the wind. Makes me a tad bit curious as to why he suddenly decided to take it down.

    Last but not least, and I’m not sure if it’s of any significance or not, the formation and TMRCA dates for L283 and Z2103 have shifted a bit. For the longest time, Z2103’s downstream Yamnaya associated branches were 3400BCE and L283 (Z622, Z600, YP91, Z2509) were 3300BCE. Now they’ve flopped, with L283 at 3500BCE and Z2103 3400BCE.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z622/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M12149/
    Last edited by Polska; 14-11-21 at 07:20.

  21. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    I might have missed it upstream in the comments, but the ancient L283 from Albania will be in the following paper:

    ”The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge Between West Asia & Europe”

    According to some users at Anthrogenica, the paper was submitted to Science in August/September for academic review. Maybe we’ll luck out and have it before Christmas. There are some heavy hitters associated with this paper: Iosif Lazaridis, David Reich, and Henry Shephard. Evidently Henry Shephard is “Mr Moldova”, so I’m thinking this paper might shed some light on this rumored L283 from Moldova.

    https://ku-dk.academia.edu/DrHenrySh...urriculumVitae

    This Budjak Culture is from the NW Black Sea region and is in the zone in terms of dates.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak



    The other big paper hopefully not too far away:

    “Genomic Signals of Continuity and Admixture in the Caucasus” from Ghalichi Ayshin.

    Lots of samples in this one (more than Wang 2019) with much more sampling from the NW Caucasus. Perhaps this will yield some L283 older than KDC001. There’s some speculation about a sample that dates back to 6100BC with EHG from NW Caucasus. Also, there is some very ancient R1b Z2103 from Dagestan rumored to be in this paper. The author works for Max Planck.

    Davidski over at Eurogenes recently took down his old blog entry claiming L283 arrived in Europe with Mediterranean traders from the near East. Disappeared like a fart in the wind. Makes me a tad bit curious as to why he suddenly decided to take it down.

    Last but not least, and I’m not sure if it’s of any significance or not, the formation and TMRCA dates for L283 and Z2103 have shifted a bit. For the longest time, Z2103’s downstream Yamnaya associated branches were 3400BCE and L283 (Z622, Z600, YP91, Z2509) were 3300BCE. Now they’ve flopped, with L283 at 3500BCE and Z2103 3400BCE.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z622/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M12149/

    Polska what black magic is this? You always come up with the best news. These questions I have been bugging members on forums for ages and all of a sudden, as in other instance the answer pops up in your posts.

    First:

    ”The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge Between West Asia & Europe”

    This will likely answer the question Gurier pointed out. An interesting thing is if there will be samples from Troy :).

    "
    Iosif Lazaridis, David Reich, and Henry Shephard. Evidently Henry Shephard is “Mr Moldova”"

    This is like the avengers of genetic history ensemble. = ) Moldovan sample autosomal DNA will prove a lot in this! If it is indeed there.

    "
    Also, there is some very ancient R1b Z2103 from Dagestan rumored to be in this paper. The author works for Max Planck."

    Maybe Anthony was not wrong after all?! And maybe Provyn can also be right?

    This is all very exiting. They are doing peer reviewing for the 2nd month now? Sounds like its quite a substantial paper as far as novelty goes, since if it was in line with previous studies the peer review surely would have been finished by now.

    Edit:

    PS... Budjak also known as Bessarabia ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    Likely Basarab dynasty belonged to J-L283>Z1043* , because it was the most common Basarab haplotype (9) and the only Basarab genetics found in more than one region, Gorj and Sibiu. They have relation to Albanian Thaci-Korbi cluster, some Greeks etc. So this cluster (among few others) signifies some of those shared Romanian-Albanian words.


    For reference the house of the Draculesti (Vlad Tepes, Vlad the Impaler) was an offspring of the house of Basarab.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Basarab
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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  22. #697
    Regular Member
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post

    This will likely answer the question Gurier pointed out. An interesting thing is if there will be samples from Troy :).


    Hopefully, but I have the bad feeling that
    if the "spoiled" Moldovan sample pops out, it will be from a late Trypillian site with mixed ancestry (Old-Europe/Steppe) , it would be too easy to get a clear solution.


  23. #698
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    Hopefully, but I have the bad feeling that[/COLOR] if the "spoiled" Moldovan sample pops out, it will be from a late Trypillian site with mixed ancestry (Old-Europe/Steppe) , it would be too easy to get a clear solution.

    Well it was me and you who in our previous posts were hoping for more samples

    But nonetheless, this paper for sure will bring us closer to consensus.

    If the Moldovan sample is found in it, it depends on the age. If its 6000bp... If it has even a tiny bit of steppe... well then the conclusion is obvious. Given the MRCA of L283.

    But I am more interested in Troy tbh, it there will be samples from Troy! Since these likely might be the first wave of IE... the ones that ended up in Asia Minor. But I am speculating just off of my wishful thinking, since I have no clue if samples from Troy even exist.

  24. #699
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    If the Moldovan sample is found in it, it depends on the age. If its 6000bp... If it has even a tiny bit of steppe... well then the conclusion is obvious. Given the MRCA of L283.
    For sure I would "love" a 6000BP sample, either Trypillian or Steppe related, because, yeh, it would mainly close the discussion.
    But I'm not rising my expectations too high, if something appears I expect it to be in the range 5500-5000BP.
    We just have to wait and see ... first if something pops out, and then what it says :) .

  25. #700
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Apparently there are quite a few Celtic samples, and none show J2-L283, don't you think we would've had a Celtic J2b2 sample by now?
    Possibly you are right, but another possibility is that it was only present in the Eastern groups of Celts and so few made it further West, initially, that you need thousands of samples or good luck to find it.

    E-V13 won't be as rare, but still concentrated in Alpine Celts and Celticised populations from the Alpine-Danubian and North Italian area. As usual, a major problem for various groups in this context is that they cremated their dead at different times.

    I5691; 787-544 BC; Kapiteljska njive, Novo mesto; Slovenia_IA; J2b2a1a1a-L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z597 (xZ2507,FGC64029)
    That's part of the Unterkrainer group of Eastern Hallstatt, which practised the Illyrian burial rite and social rules. To their North were Daco-Thracian/Basarabi dominated groups, like Kalenderberg and Frg, but also further up the Danube and towards Czechia. This was how E-V13 spread, whereas other groups being more Illyrian influenced, like this individual from the Unterkrainer group.

    Moldovan Scythians seem to be mostly the result of Daco-Thracians just adopting Scythian ways (Geto-Scythians) and they being heavily shifted towards BGR_EBA. There is however one outlier which plots more similar to the more Gva derived Thraco-Scythians in Hungary and the mixed Ukrainian ones. So there most likely was a "nest" of Southern backmigration through Psenichevo-Basarabi in Moldova. Both to their left (Pannonia) and their right (Ukraine) the mixed Daco-Thracian and Scythian groups look more like mixtures of Fzesabony-Kyjatice-Gva, but in that area, BGR_EBA/Aegean ancestry seems to have played a role.
    Its unresolved whether that is how Daco-Thracians generally looked, or just the Eastern group. Because I recently read that the Channelled Ware in Bulgaria being directly connected to the Northern Gva-Holigrady groups, not Belegis II-Gva in the Tisza-Danubian sphere (Western Romania-Eastern Hungary-Serbia and downwards to Greece with expansion grups). So the Eastern Channelled Ware network connected Bulgaria with Moldova.
    Let's see how this pans out.

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