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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    If your phase 2 of 800BC is an indication of the full celtiinastion of Noricum then I cannot dispute this, this seems factual , especially knowing that the Celts tried the same thing to the Venetic people ......but failed, as the Venetic resisted and really only took on celtic dress and basically that is all.
    BTW, Celts, seemed to also have also failed in celtinizing the Rhaetic
    We don't know the status of what later became Noricum before La Tene. There are different groups of people, of which some could or could not be Celtic speaking, but culturally they are quite different, like Frög-Kalenderberg and Unterkrainische Gruppe respectively. I doubt they were all Celts during Hallstatt, but some say so, others disagree, nobody can really know. Ancient DNA might help in this respect too.

    The case of the Ligurians is curious, because they being obviously connected to Eastern Urnfielders (have Channelled Ware related elements, in moderns high, but old E-V13) and Eastern Hallstatt, but speak another language. Unfortunately, like so often, the language being poorly attested. The Lepontic Celts might have been present earlier or later, again a matter of debate, having Eastern influences too. So it seems in any case that in the very Early Iron Age not all were Celts, but how far they reached at the height of Hallstatt being disputed. Simple as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    you do realise that the term Illyria proper refers to the modern country of Montenegro and the only tribe in modern Albania was wiped out and became non existance in 314BC by the macedonian invasion.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyri..._Docleatae.svg
    I am not talking about illyria proper, i am talking about unmixed illyrians. Ancient croatia/slovenia is where celts pushed their culture

    Yeah sure, illyrians were wiped out somehow in 314bc yet mentioned much later

    "In 171 BC, the Illyrian king Gentius was allied with the Romans against the Macedonians. But in 169 BC he changed sides and allied himself with Perseus of Macedon. During the Third Illyrian War, in 168 BC, he arrested two Roman legati and destroyed the cities of Apollonia and Dyrrhachium, which were allied to Rome. He was defeated at Scodra by a Roman force under L. Anicius Gallus,[14] and in 167 BC he was brought to Rome as a captive to participate in Gallus' triumph, after which he was interned at Iguvium."

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    Double post - delete

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Pure or not, we have direct evidence of Alpine-Danubian elements reaching as far as Albania. The material culture and intrusive character is obvious. However, I never claimed they were pure in any way, which is probably why they got from the Danube down more J-L283 in the first place, because these joined up in the North and expanded rapidly with their newly adopted cultural identity. The function of the Koszider horizon is imho mostly the intrusion of the Middle Danubian TC. Its the evidence for their expansion. What we see afterwards is an interconnected world of the Pannonian-Illyrians. After the expansion.
    Gimbutas you quoted makes also absolutely clear that late Otomani-F�zesabony survived in the East and out of which developed Piliny, later Kyjatice and G�va too, with relations to the other Channelled Ware groups.
    i) = Southern Bell Baker plus J-L283
    ii) = Epi-Corded, Yamnaya and primarily Neolithic lineages, among which in any case E-V13 and J2a.
    Even she wasn't sure about where to exaclty put them, she just noted their difference from the rest of the TC.
    There are already too many Iron Age Illyrian finds to change that. In the upcoming samples from the British paper, R-Z2103 seems to be closer to the Pannonian group of Neolithics, especially E-V13 and J2a, more similar to late Otomani/F�zesabony, G�va-Kyjatice than the Illyrian J2b. Let's see whether they find some E-V13 and other Pannonian lineages in Mokrin-related EBA groups and how this relates to all the later layers. So far they are well-separated for the most part, which is very easy to demonstrate on PCA plots, some of which I posted already. Other related Neolithic lineages (to E-V13, R-Z2103 and J2a) seem to be H, G2 and I2 rather. No J2b was in these clusters. Not even close to the F�zesabondy-G�va-Kyjatice. Kyjatice is the direct descendent of Piliny and Piliny has influence from F�zesabony/late Otomani with Epi-Corded intrusive elements.
    Which iron age illyrians? Thracians and illyrians emerged from a close region and it is possible that they carried similar bronze age lines before expanding. Z2103 has already been found in early medieval serbia. Its only a matter of time before we find some z2103 in bronze age balkans

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Which iron age illyrians? Thracians and illyrians emerged from a close region and it is possible that they carried similar bronze age lines. Z2103 has been found in early medieval serbia. Its only a matter of time before we find some z2103 in bronze age balkans
    Sure, but they were different in origin and mixed later.

    I found something very interesting, almost funny about the Unterkrainische Gruppe:
    Die Sitte Prunkgräber zu errichten beginnt im Osthallstattkreis um circa 800 v. Chr.[5] und damit wesentlich früher als in der Westhallstattkultur. Dieser frühe Beginn hatte an urnenfelderzeitliche Traditionen angelehnte Beigaben und die häufig durchgeführte Sitte der Brandbestattung zur Folge. Einzig die unterkrainische Kultur und Kärnten beginnt ab dem 8. Jh. Körperbestattungen durchzuführen. Eine Sonderstellung besitzt die Osthallstattkultur in Slowenien, da dort die größte Funddichte belegt ist und sich hier die meisten Prunkgräber erfassen lassen.[6] In Slowenien sind Sippenhügel charakteristisch, in denen das Zentralgrab leer bleibt und sich die Bestattungen, häufig sehr zahlreich, am Rand des Hügels befinden.
    https://www.grin.com/document/347043

    Like mentioned earlier, the movement of the culture was from the East, to the West, with first Channelled Ware, then Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi-Hallstatt.

    The Unterkrainer just copied the custom of elite burials, without using it for such an elite, because they had none, but rather chiefs of the clans, no higher elites in luxury and princely graves. So they made a huge tumulus, like other Hallstatt groups, but put no-body in the central part, but many members of their clans at the fringes!

    This clearly shows that they adopted cultural practises from the then culturally dominant Northern groups, just like the Thraco-Cimmerian horseman gear, but they just copied it superficially, like to "stay in the game", without really taking up all the ideas and societal elements. So they could show other tribes: "We got big tumuli too."

    Typically, the more Basarabi-Northern Pannonian, possibly Daco-Thracian related groups preferred cremation, like mentioned before.

    The Sulmtal-group was somewhat intermediate between the rather Illyrian Unterkrainische Gruppe and the more North Pannonian-Daco-Thracian influenced and Celtic oriented Frög and Kalenderberg groups, but clearly not that much in the Illyrian sphere any more. The Northern Croatian groups too being more Pannonian oriented, rahter than Illyrian.

    J2b was found in Novo Mesto, read about it here too:
    Ein Beispiel dafür ist die Siedlung auf dem Marof bei Novo Mesto in Slowenien. Sie befindet sich auf einer Erhöhung nördlich über dem mittelalterlichen Stadtkern, auf dem sich schon die Illyrer angesiedelt haben. Sie ist durch einen stark befestigten Wall am Siedlungsrand eingegrenzt.
    Die Grabhügel des dazugehörigen Gräberfeldes sind sehr einfach und ärmlich, nur wenige Prunkgräber sind gefunden worden. Das Gräberfeld umfasst heute insgesamt vier hallstattzeitliche Tumuli.[28] Vor der Grabung konnten noch fünf bis sechs festgestellt werden. Diese sind klassische Sippentumuli.
    When the Celts conquered the region and destroyed the Illyrian culture, even the walls being demolished, the Celts started with cremation burials again:

    Unmittelbar an der Grabhügelnekropole schließt sich ein mittellatènezeitliches Flachgräberfeld mit Brandbestattungen an.
    https://www.grin.com/document/347043

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We don't know the status of what later became Noricum before La Tene. There are different groups of people, of which some could or could not be Celtic speaking, but culturally they are quite different, like Fr�g-Kalenderberg and Unterkrainische Gruppe respectively. I doubt they were all Celts during Hallstatt, but some say so, others disagree, nobody can really know. Ancient DNA might help in this respect too.

    The case of the Ligurians is curious, because they being obviously connected to Eastern Urnfielders (have Channelled Ware related elements, in moderns high, but old E-V13) and Eastern Hallstatt, but speak another language. Unfortunately, like so often, the language being poorly attested. The Lepontic Celts might have been present earlier or later, again a matter of debate, having Eastern influences too. So it seems in any case that in the very Early Iron Age not all were Celts, but how far they reached at the height of Hallstatt being disputed. Simple as that.
    The curious Ligurians was due to some scholars stating that the Celtic Taurisci confederation of Tribes went from northern Ligurian lands to Noricum mixing with the Illyrian Nori tribe
    we also have the Pannonians in the south-east of Carniola, the Iapydes, an Illyrian tribe,( similar time as moving to foggia Italy as the Daunians ) in the south-west, and the Carni, a Venetic tribe.
    Before celts went into Noricum, the land was inhabited by Illyrians, Pannonians and Venetic tribes ............as you say Noricum was big , but only if you look at it at the time of a Roman province
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Roman histroian Appian notes that the Celts, Illyrians, and Galatians
    descend from the same peoples (via three sons of Polyphemus). One of the Illyrian Celtic
    tribes was the Scordisci (who during his day were settled in Pannonia – Hungary).
    Another Illyrian tribe in the 3rd Century BC was the Autarienses who were overtaken with
    destruction by the vengence of Apollo. Having joined Molostimus and the Celtic people
    called Cimbri in an expedition against the temple of Delphi, the greater part of them
    were destroyed by storm, hurricane, and lightening before the sacrilege was committed
    (p. 4).

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Roman histroian Appian notes that the Celts, Illyrians, and Galatians
    descend from the same peoples (via three sons of Polyphemus). One of the Illyrian Celtic
    tribes was the Scordisci (who during his day were settled in Pannonia – Hungary).
    Another Illyrian tribe in the 3rd Century BC was the Autarienses who were overtaken with
    destruction by the vengence of Apollo. Having joined Molostimus and the Celtic people
    called Cimbri in an expedition against the temple of Delphi, the greater part of them
    were destroyed by storm, hurricane, and lightening before the sacrilege was committed
    (p. 4).
    The Scordisci were rather a raiding party of various tribal various, mostly Celts, which set themselves on top of local poplations in the Balkans to found their new political structure. In many regions of the Balkans the real Celtic influence was rather small, but it depends. Slovenia e.g. was more affected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Sure, but they were different in origin and mixed later.
    I found something very interesting, almost funny about the Unterkrainische Gruppe:
    https://www.grin.com/document/347043
    Like mentioned earlier, the movement of the culture was from the East, to the West, with first Channelled Ware, then Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi-Hallstatt.
    The Unterkrainer just copied the custom of elite burials, without using it for such an elite, because they had none, but rather chiefs of the clans, no higher elites in luxury and princely graves. So they made a huge tumulus, like other Hallstatt groups, but put no-body in the central part, but many members of their clans at the fringes!
    This clearly shows that they adopted cultural practises from the then culturally dominant Northern groups, just like the Thraco-Cimmerian horseman gear, but they just copied it superficially, like to "stay in the game", without really taking up all the ideas and societal elements. So they could show other tribes: "We got big tumuli too."
    Typically, the more Basarabi-Northern Pannonian, possibly Daco-Thracian related groups preferred cremation, like mentioned before.
    The Sulmtal-group was somewhat intermediate between the rather Illyrian Unterkrainische Gruppe and the more North Pannonian-Daco-Thracian influenced and Celtic oriented Fr�g and Kalenderberg groups, but clearly not that much in the Illyrian sphere any more. The Northern Croatian groups too being more Pannonian oriented, rahter than Illyrian.
    J2b was found in Novo Mesto, read about it here too:
    When the Celts conquered the region and destroyed the Illyrian culture, even the walls being demolished, the Celts started with cremation burials again:
    https://www.grin.com/document/347043
    Novo mesto wasnt an illyrian hub though as it is in slovenia - novo mesto would have been overrun by celts since tumulus culture and definitely during urnfield. It was already destroyed and conquered by the celts like you mentioned by the iron age. Sure the j2b found there may be surviving illyrians but best way figure out which lines the illyrians belonged to is to find adna further south instead of beyond their historical border

    If you look at this map here, there is a vast region below urnfield which i think the illyrians occupied as well as ancient greeks further south. To the east you also would have thracians, where exactly they sat during this period is unclear as a few hundred years later the daco thracians occupied some of the gava region that was under urnfield influence.

    Map1000BC_Cultures01_big.jpg

    With that map we can propose a few things -

    1. Illyrians are unlikely to be related to urnfield genetically/culturally
    2. Some thracians or maybe daco thracians should have had closer relation with urnfield genetically/culturally
    3. Middle danubian groups are unlikely to be related to illyrians

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    Novo Mesto was Illyrian related. Their whole customs and burial rite prove it.

    Illyrian tribes did adopt Urnfield styles and cremation, but only some tribes, mainly in Pannonia, while the later core did not.
    MIddle Danubian TC founded Illyrians or were an essential part to it, Middle Danubian Urnfielders are the direct successors, while the expansive and more Balkan influenced core groups were sticking to the old ways.

    The map shows the situation before the expansion, you can see the next map with the expansive arrows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Which iron age illyrians? Thracians and illyrians emerged from a close region and it is possible that they carried similar bronze age lines before expanding. Z2103 has already been found in early medieval serbia. Its only a matter of time before we find some z2103 in bronze age balkans
    Bro what are you even talking about?

    From the other posts you mentioned we have no BA/IA L283 in the Balkans when in the last year more than 20 samples of L283 have popper up on both sides of the Adriatic.

    Then you mentioned the lack of L283 in Bosnia and Montenegro as a fact L283 has no connection to Illyrians, when in Albania, Serbia and Croatia L283 is found since BA. Meanwhile we have no samples from BA/IA Montenegro/Bosnia, not just L283, not many samples of anything at all. So the fact that there is no L283 from Bosnia/Montenegro from BA/IA doesnt mean anything, since there is a drought of samples of any haplogroup from that timeframe.

    Matter of time before we find z2103? Bro L283 and z2103 were found together at Maros dated 4kybp... Bronze age. with an autosomal admixture of 30+ Steppe and 50+ Tollense like components.

    Like if me and other members had to correct you once it would be fine. But every couple of months you go on a tangent on these same points, and it gets really repetitive. If BA/IA samples from Etruria/Daunia(who you claim to be Italics when it facts the long held lingusitic consensus was just proved with ancient DNA that they were likely related to Illyrians)/Dalmatia/Maros(Pannonia)/rumored North Albania/Danubian Limes/Slovenia/Croatia again are not enough to convince you, and you still think L283 is undersampled when in fact it is becoming one of the more sampled haplogroups in the region I do not know what will.

    Edit:

    I will do you the same favor someone did me when I first started frequenting this forum and give you an advice. "Don't be like all the people before you who talked all sorts of crazy theories for years and have yet to test". Test your YDNA.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    ― Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Novo Mesto was Illyrian related. Their whole customs and burial rite prove it.
    Illyrian tribes did adopt Urnfield styles and cremation, but only some tribes, mainly in Pannonia, while the later core did not.
    MIddle Danubian TC founded Illyrians or were an essential part to it, Middle Danubian Urnfielders are the direct successors, while the expansive and more Balkan influenced core groups were sticking to the old ways.
    The map shows the situation before the expansion, you can see the next map with the expansive arrows.

    I dont know, looking at the urnfield map - it looks quite clear to me where the illyrians were as it doesnt differ too much with post urnfield - why did urnfield allow for such mass of land in western balkans to go amiss, there was surely an opposing force in that region at the time.


    Do you suggest that the paleobalkanic groups in south europe were replaced by urnfield? If you claim that illyrians, thracians etc are direct descendents of urnfield then their y dna should be similar. Even without an urnfield origin, since they are both bronze age paleobalkanic groups as the map suggests their y dna again could have initially come from a similar middle bronze age source


    Anyway, i havent been able to find out much on novo mesto but i ran into this from 500bc - it is a depiction of an animal (gazelle?) that has nothing to do with slovenia and I have no idea why it was found there
    EvWLNyiXEAEQsoa.jpg

    Edit: maybe they are goats? Definitely look more like gazelles to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Scordisci were rather a raiding party of various tribal various, mostly Celts, which set themselves on top of local poplations in the Balkans to found their new political structure. In many regions of the Balkans the real Celtic influence was rather small, but it depends. Slovenia e.g. was more affected.
    Scordisci occurred due to the failed invasion of the celts against Greece...the remnants settled in modern Serbia creating these scordisci .......they eventually mixed with thracian and dardanian people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Novo Mesto was Illyrian related. Their whole customs and burial rite prove it.

    Illyrian tribes did adopt Urnfield styles and cremation, but only some tribes, mainly in Pannonia, while the later core did not.
    MIddle Danubian TC founded Illyrians or were an essential part to it, Middle Danubian Urnfielders are the direct successors, while the expansive and more Balkan influenced core groups were sticking to the old ways.

    The map shows the situation before the expansion, you can see the next map with the expansive arrows.

    we even have illyrians adopting the celtic tattooing system ..............even the illyrians that moved to Apulia italy, the Daunians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Bro what are you even talking about?
    From the other posts you mentioned we have no BA/IA L283 in the Balkans when in the last year more than 20 samples of L283 have popper up on both sides of the Adriatic.
    Then you mentioned the lack of L283 in Bosnia and Montenegro as a fact L283 has no connection to Illyrians, when in Albania, Serbia and Croatia L283 is found since BA. Meanwhile we have no samples from BA/IA Montenegro/Bosnia, not just L283, not many samples of anything at all. So the fact that there is no L283 from Bosnia/Montenegro from BA/IA doesnt mean anything, since there is a drought of samples of any haplogroup from that timeframe.
    Matter of time before we find z2103? Bro L283 and z2103 were found together at Maros dated 4kybp... Bronze age. with an autosomal admixture of 30+ Steppe and 50+ Tollense like components.
    Like if me and other members had to correct you once it would be fine. But every couple of months you go on a tangent on these same points, and it gets really repetitive. If BA/IA samples from Etruria/Daunia(who you claim to be Italics when it facts the long held lingusitic consensus was just proved with ancient DNA that they were likely related to Illyrians)/Dalmatia/Maros(Pannonia)/rumored North Albania/Danubian Limes/Slovenia/Croatia again are not enough to convince you, and you still think L283 is undersampled when in fact it is becoming one of the more sampled haplogroups in the region I do not know what will.
    Edit:
    I will do you the same favor someone did me when I first started frequenting this forum and give you an advice. "Don't be like all the people before you who talked all sorts of crazy theories for years and have yet to test". Test your YDNA.
    Please give me a full list of ancient j2b l283, would be great if there was a website to keep track of it - do we have the year on the albanian sample yet?

    The j2b l283 found in slovenia was unsurprisingly heavily mixed with celts as that was a celtic region. Other j2b l283 found in italy do not prove much in regards to illyrians, there was a lot of different natives in italy (etruscans etc) and as we know italo/celtic urnfielders overran the region previously

    Are you of the opinion that illyrians were direct descendents of urnfield?

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    He needs to hear it from one of these ancient J2b-L283 samples screaming "I'm Illyrian"

    I can understand a foreigner questioning whether J2b-L283 has anything to do with the Illyrians, but an Albanian, especially when the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing to it.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Please give me a full list of ancient j2b l283, would be great if there was a website to keep track of it - do we have the year on the albanian sample yet?
    The j2b l283 found in slovenia was unsurprisingly heavily mixed with celts as that was a celtic region. Other j2b l283 found in italy do not prove much in regards to illyrians, there was a lot of different natives in italy (etruscans etc) and as we know italo/celtic urnfielders overran the region previously
    Are you of the opinion that illyrians were direct descendents of urnfield?
    Trojet is working on the excel last I checked.
    About cultures I have no clue at all. Reading Wilkes "The Illyrians" as we speak, but barely have time to get through it.
    Thing is Celts as a ethnic affiliation appear much later in the area from what I understand, whereas Illyrians might predate them in that region by quite a bit. And also Slovenia and Croatia from what I gather were never Celtic cores.





    In contrast:

    "A distinguishing feature of the Bronze Age is the practice of raising mounds ot soil or stone above the burials ..I individuals. This was accompanied by an elaborate ritual, Indicated by encircling rings of stones and the deposition of precious objects as grave goods, including battle axes and daggers. In Albania the first metal-using culture (Chalcolithic, 2600—2100 bc) is represented in the first and second levels at Maliq in the Korce basin (see figure 3). The early houses were erected on oak piles, then later ones directly on the ground with walls of bundled reeds. Implements were of flint, polished gtonc, bone, horn and clay (weights for fishing nets) and included also copper axes, spearheads, needles and fish-hooks. There are links with other Balkan sites of this period, notably Buhanj in southern Serbia and Krivodol in Bulgaria, as well as some correspondences with Macedonian sites. Albanian irchaeologists stress the essentially local character of this cul- ture, where the earlier traditions have been detected as per- suing even in newer phases that have been associated with a new immigrant ruling class. 1 "This rather tidy portrayal of a succession of early farming cultures using ground and flaked stone tools and then some largely imported metal implements comes to an end with the middle phase of the Bronze Age (1 600/1. 500-c. 1300 bc). The change is signified by the manifest ability of the people some identify as 'proto-Illyrians' to exploit the rich mineral deposits of Bosnia and Slovenia, notably copper, tin and gold."

    https://archive.org/details/15826619...e/n25/mode/2up

    Now I am no expert. But certainly the timeline here first all three clades, J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103 and E-V13.
    I have yet to finish the book, but the Neolithic/BA novelty in metalworking and mounds seems to be a Northern Influence, but it also seems to have gotten to the southern Illyrian frontiers quite early by 2500BC.

    Cant recall who mentioned the Maliq excavations in Korce some years ago. But from what I have read it consists of mounds.
    Would be ideal if some Albanian archeologists/geneticists looking to make a name would go and test the DNA there.
    But maybe that is the site from South Albania Rrenjet was mentioning who knows?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    He needs to hear it from one of these ancient J2b-L283 samples screaming "I'm Illyrian"

    I can understand a foreigner questioning whether J2b-L283 has anything to do with the Illyrians, but an Albanian, especially when the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing to it.

    Anywho, can't wait wait until it pops in ancient Bosnia/Montenegro/Albania, etc, and see what he has to say.
    But it hasnt overwhelmingly pointed to that yet - i also cant wait until it pops up in those regions too alongside other lines

    J2b l283 is almost non existant in bosnia and montenegro - that shouldnt be the case when these where the biggest illyrian hubs, they definitely carried other lines, not just j2b l283 (if they carried it)

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/

  19. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    But it hasnt overwhelmingly pointed to that yet - i also cant wait until it pops up in those regions too alongside other lines
    J2b l283 is almost non existant in bosnia and montenegro - that shouldnt be the case when these where the biggest illyrian hubs, they definitely carried other lines, not just j2b l283 (if they carried it)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/
    You should know by now that modern distribution doesn't equal ancient. For example, in Bosnia one of the major "Slavic" haplogroups makes up around 50% of all male lines. Besides, as we all know, there is already a Bronze Age J2b-L283 sample in Dalmatia, but apparently that's not enough for you.

    Conversely, the main reason why it peaks in Northern Albania is because the region has the lowest Slavic Y-DNA lines around..

    EDIT: I don't think anyone claimed Illyrians only carried J2b-L283.

  20. #745
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...rn-Balkans.pdf

    I am sure Riverman and Hawk will apreciate the above link and read^ very fascinating isnt it?



    Now imagine getting samples from 13, 17, 33-41 tested... How many questions that would answer regarding three major political entities/ ethnicities in the area

    Apollonia

    Albanopolis

    Macedon

    I am not mentioning the Northern red dots, cause I have a feeling I know what samples might be found there.

  21. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Trojet is working on the excel last I checked.
    About cultures I have no clue at all. Reading Wilkes "The Illyrians" as we speak, but barely have time to get through it.
    Thing is Celts as a ethnic affiliation appear much later in the area from what I understand, whereas Illyrians might predate them in that region by quite a bit. And also Slovenia and Croatia from what I gather were never Celtic cores.





    In contrast:

    "A distinguishing feature of the Bronze Age is the practice of raising mounds ot soil or stone above the burials ..I individuals. This was accompanied by an elaborate ritual, Indicated by encircling rings of stones and the deposition of precious objects as grave goods, including battle axes and daggers. In Albania the first metal-using culture (Chalcolithic, 2600—2100 bc) is represented in the first and second levels at Maliq in the Korce basin (see figure 3). The early houses were erected on oak piles, then later ones directly on the ground with walls of bundled reeds. Implements were of flint, polished gtonc, bone, horn and clay (weights for fishing nets) and included also copper axes, spearheads, needles and fish-hooks. There are links with other Balkan sites of this period, notably Buhanj in southern Serbia and Krivodol in Bulgaria, as well as some correspondences with Macedonian sites. Albanian irchaeologists stress the essentially local character of this cul- ture, where the earlier traditions have been detected as per- suing even in newer phases that have been associated with a new immigrant ruling class. 1 "This rather tidy portrayal of a succession of early farming cultures using ground and flaked stone tools and then some largely imported metal implements comes to an end with the middle phase of the Bronze Age (1 600/1. 500-c. 1300 bc). The change is signified by the manifest ability of the people some identify as 'proto-Illyrians' to exploit the rich mineral deposits of Bosnia and Slovenia, notably copper, tin and gold."

    https://archive.org/details/15826619...e/n25/mode/2up

    Now I am no expert. But certainly the timeline here first all three clades, J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103 and E-V13.
    I have yet to finish the book, but the Neolithic/BA novelty in metalworking and mounds seems to be a Northern Influence, but it also seems to have gotten to the southern Illyrian frontiers quite early by 2500BC.

    Cant recall who mentioned the Maliq excavations in Korce some years ago. But from what I have read it consists of mounds.
    Would be ideal if some Albanian archeologists/geneticists looking to make a name would go and test the DNA there.
    But maybe that is the site from South Albania Rrenjet was mentioning who knows?
    No no no, you need to understand that celts played a big role in urnfield dating back to 1300bc. Urnfield covered all of slovenia and much of croatia, most of italy, france etc. It is easy to find out more on urnfield on the internet, or just look at the map and dates.

    Urnfield evolved from tumulus culture and tumulus culture has been linked to proto italo-celts

    This is why i am careful with linking anything to illyrian unless it comes from bosnia-albania region. Once we get some samples from there we can say "ah right so that j2b l283 in slovenia or in italy was an illyrian after all".

  22. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    You should know by now that modern distribution doesn't equal ancient. For example, in Bosnia one of the major "Slavic" haplogroups makes up around 50% of all male lines. Besides, as we all know, there is already a Bronze Age J2b-L283 sample in Dalmatia, but apparently that's not enough for you.
    And the main reason why it peaks in Northern Albania is because the region has the lowest Slavic Y-DNA lines around..
    If you mean i2a din, yes it peaks in bosnia but around 40% not 50%. It doesnt explain why j2b l283 is near no existant in montenegro

    Meanwhile both countries have a bit more r1b z2103 -
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2103/

    And even more v13 -
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

    I am not here confirming that j2b l283 isnt an illyrian line, i am saying they carried other lines too. Dalmatia is one thing, montenegro is another - we need to start seeing results from further south

    I wont give out any more theories on why j2b l283 is a lot higher in north albanians compared to others because like you said it ultimately doesnt matter in determining what are proto illyrian lines. Only ancient dna will help with that

  23. #748
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...rn-Balkans.pdf

    I am sure Riverman and Hawk will apreciate the above link and read^ very fascinating isnt it?



    Now imagine getting samples from 13, 17, 33-41 tested... How many questions that would answer regarding three major political entities/ ethnicities in the area

    Apollonia

    Albanopolis

    Macedon

    I am not mentioning the Northern red dots, cause I have a feeling I know what samples might be found there.
    I will read latter, but TaktikatEMalet is a passive-agressive troll, he just wants to warm blood, for 3-4 months he will pose existential questions for E-V13, for other 3-4 months he will switch the attention for J2b2-L283 and so on and so forth. Try to write with him in Albanian, not standard one, in dialect to see if he is even Albanian to start with.

  24. #749
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Attachment 13020

    These 2 Kovac brothers (Robert and Niko) are Bosnian Croats who are, potentially, direct descendants of some of the recently published L283 samples from the GB paper. They are on the PH1602 branch, specifically this branch : https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/

  25. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I will read latter, but TaktikatEMalet is a passive-agressive troll, he just wants to warm blood, for 3-4 months he will pose existential questions for E-V13, for other 3-4 months he will switch the attention for J2b2-L283 and so on and so forth. Try to write with him in Albanian, not standard one, in dialect to see if he is even Albanian to start with.
    Im not the one claiming a heavily celtic mixed ancient dna from slovenia is illyrian. You need to chill and wait for more adna before making rash "confirmations"

    Haha and now you try to make things personal, of course i can speak albanian but there is more to it than that. Qjysherit ton qe nuk na prishen kulturen dhe e mbjaten mbiemrin e tyre jan shqiptaret e vertet, jo ata qe shiten mbiemrin dhe kulturen per fe muti.
    Last edited by TaktikatEMalet; 16-11-21 at 02:35.

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