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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #751
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    At this point I think its more likely to find J-L283 in Cetina than E-V13, which I never thought of being that likely. Cetina being essentially "Bell Beakerised" Neolithics. That's a possible pathway into the networks of later Tumulus culture, which were of Southern Bell Beakers too.
    Well, at this point i agree, i wouldn't actually be surprised if Cetina has J2b2-L283, then we can give explanation to Nuragic J2b2-L283 finds. Because Cetina people sailed to Central Mediterranean.

    As for Tumulus, Tumulus-Grave/Hugelgraberkultur came from Bavaria and crossed the Alps to Carpathian Mountains during Middle Bronze Age to cause all that turmoil and chaos, so i think the timeline you are proposing don't match.

    It all really depends on how we view Illyrians, if they were largely Yamnaya then we don't need the LBA input. Early to Middle Bronze Age Belotic Bela Crkva Culture from Serbia split into two groups, one in West to form Glasinac Culture and the other in South to influence the Matt-Painted Pottery Culture forming the South Illyrians (Illyri Propri dictii) and some split-offs subsequently crossing the Adriatic and being known as Messapi, Dauni, Iapygians.

    On top of all of these groups we have the Late Bronze Age Danubian Urnfield influence, this is the tricky part to check who were they in specificity, Marija Gimbutas proposed it was the Koszider hoard (Encrusted Pottery Culture influenced by Tumulus-Grave people). I guess we will find out.

    Then from Central Balkans to South/West we can have the Gava/Channeled-Ware people, more influencing Dardani, Enchelei (Trebeniste Culture), Taulantii ???

    Let's see.

  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Attachment 13020

    These 2 Kovac brothers (Robert and Niko) are Bosnian Croats who are, potentially, direct descendants of some of the recently published L283 samples from the GB paper. They are on the PH1602 branch, specifically this branch : https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/
    Wow, that's a Sea Peoples lineage probably! One branch staying in the Adriatic, the other moved to the Near East. Impressive example and I'm sure the sample from the GB paper is from Europe, because its autosomally North-Central Italian like and surely from the Northern Adriatic-Pannonia.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I dont know, looking at the urnfield map - it looks quite clear to me where the illyrians were as it doesnt differ too much with post urnfield - why did urnfield allow for such mass of land in western balkans to go amiss, there was surely an opposing force in that region at the time.
    Do you suggest that the paleobalkanic groups in south europe were replaced by urnfield? If you claim that illyrians, thracians etc are direct descendents of urnfield then their y dna should be similar. Even without an urnfield origin, since they are both bronze age paleobalkanic groups as the map suggests their y dna again could have initially come from a similar middle bronze age source
    I'm suggesting that the Danubian-Alpine TC brought Illyrians, firmly established them in the region. When Urnfield spread, it didn't spread from those Middle Danubian-Balkan TC group, but from further North and East, it did so along the Danube. The Danubian groups largely switched to cremation, the Southern (Illyrian core) did not. They just were more conservative and sticked to the old custom, which was however fairly recently introduced in some regions by the very Middle Danubian TC invasion. Along the Danube there was a strong influence from the Carpathian, Daco-Thracian side, from the very people they did push East soon before (Kyjatice-Gáva).

    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Scordisci occurred due to the failed invasion of the celts against Greece...the remnants settled in modern Serbia creating these scordisci .......they eventually mixed with thracian and dardanian people
    Exactly, they were among the "least Celtic of all Celts". Latenisation started in the area even before the actual Celts came, this is important to stress. So they were already half-assimilated, when these warriors came in and got in charge of things. But the population was essentially local Pannonian-Illyrian and Daco-Thracian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    As for Tumulus, Tumulus-Grave/Hugelgraberkultur came from Bavaria and crossed the Alps to Carpathian Mountains during Middle Bronze Age to cause all that turmoil and chaos, so i think the timeline you are proposing don't match.

    It all really depends on how we view Illyrians, if they were largely Yamnaya then we don't need the LBA input. Early to Middle Bronze Age Belotic Bela Crkva Culture from Serbia split into two groups, one in West to form Glasinac Culture and the other in South to influence the Matt-Painted Pottery Culture forming the South Illyrians (Illyri Propri dictii) and some split-offs subsequently crossing the Adriatic and being known as Messapi, Dauni, Iapygians.

    On top of all of these groups we have the Late Bronze Age Danubian Urnfield influence, this is the tricky part to check who were they in specificity, Marija Gimbutas proposed it was the Koszider hoard (Encrusted Pottery Culture influenced by Tumulus-Grave people). I guess we will find out.
    The cultural influence is obvious, the connections too. Its however possible that it was a more local population just adopting elements, but that became extremely unlikely, because of the position of some of the J2b from past and the present British study. They made it too far to the North to be remnants of something earlier, and the tide was against anything creeping up that strongly too. So the most likely explanation is: The J-L283 guys came downwards themselves, in associated with Beaker related ancestry.

    By the way, the Verteba cave sample is out, it proves that Pannonian/Epic-Corded/Beaker like elements, presumably Gáva, expanded to the East with Gáva-Holigrady possibly. That's now one axis of the expansion, which looks fine from Füzesabony to Kyjatice-Gáva. All the E-V13 samples are on two related clines, one more BGR_EBA/IA, presumably from the South, similar to Moldovan "Scythians", the other 3 between Mokrin and Füzesabony, looking Pannonian.

    The paper on Verteba cave is out, some samples show indeed increased WHG affinity.

    As for the LBA individual:
    Individual VERT-114, dated around the LBA, showed a genetic position close to Bell-Beaker populations in PCA and ADMIXTURE. This individual shows a higher influx of ancestry from WHG than from EHG populations f4(Mbuti, VERT-114; WHG, EHG) -0.002, Z score=-8,64), similar to the results obtained for the aggregate group of 22 Verteba individuals. qpAdm results for this individual show that a single model with a Bell_Beaker population as a single source works (Fig. 4). Many of the two-way models involve populations related to Ukraine_Globular_Amphora and to steppe populations, with approximately 60% of ancestry from the former and the rest from the latter.
    https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1044480/v1

    I guess it will be closer to Gáva and Kyjatice, probably Füzesabony, rather than Beakers, but let's see. They didn't compare with those single samples, but they used Mako too, which being not mentioned and wouldn't fit anyway, because its too WHG. The individual is a female, mtDNA T2.

    Looking at which Beakers she is closest too, its clear, its going in a Gáva direction:
    Verteba_LBA* Poland_Southeast_BellBeaker
    Verteba_LBA* Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker
    That's not British Beakers of course...

    I would interpret all the results as mounting evidence for a local continuity of a WHG heavy Neolithic population around the Carpathians and Pannonia, which was later fusing with Epi-Corded/Beaker groups to create the North Pannonian clusters which emerged with Gáva, Kyjatice and Füzesabony/late Otomani.

  3. #753
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Well, to me it looks like yours/Hubans/Aspar/rafc Trypillian => E-V13 is in serious trouble after the cave Verteba paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Well, to me it looks like yours/Hubans/Aspar/rafc Trypillian => E-V13 is in serious trouble after the cave Verteba paper.
    I was going for Lengyel for quite some time now if you read my posts from the last weeks. But E was there too, just a minority. But this could have been a Western migrant, even more so since they had connections to the Carpathian zone. Lengyel was in the Carpathians and it has proven samples with E1b1b. Even the Michelsberger samples might be closer connected to Lengyel colonisation of the Southern German-Danubian zone, rather than vice versa, though this is debatable.
    But the example of Lengyel-Sopot also shows how careful we must be, because in the Southern Sopot samples which came out recently, not a single E was found! They were all closer to the Middle Danube-Balaton area:
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...935351514&z=10

    So especially widespread cultures need more careful sampling, even more so if they being found to be quite diverse already (like Lengyel-Sopot was).

  5. #755
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    Wait for adna even though we have bronze age DNA from Croatia, Danuians, IA Slovenia, Timacum, upcoming Albania paper.

    No one needs to wait for more samples you just have to accept reality.

  6. #756
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Regarding Cucuteni-Trypillian culture, there was a preprint released today from a cave in Ukraine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilche-Zolote

    All the usual suspects in terms of samples, but no L283. Not really a surprise, though.

    https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1044480/v1

    Y dna samples:

    G2a2b2a3
    G2a2b2a3
    G2a2a1
    C1a
    G2a2a1a
    I2a2a1
    G2a2a1a
    G2a2b2a3
    G2a2a1a3~
    I2a1a2a
    I2c

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Wait for adna even though we have bronze age DNA from Croatia, Danuians, IA Slovenia, Timacum, upcoming Albania paper.
    No one needs to wait for more samples you just have to accept reality.
    What other samples are mentioned/rumoured in the albanian paper?

  8. #758
    Regular Member Galaxy Overlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Polska
    PS... Budjak also known as Bessarabia ?

    For reference the house of the Draculesti (Vlad Tepes, Vlad the Impaler) was an offspring of the house of Basarab.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Basarab
    Is this proven by direct descendant DNA testing? like the House of Lubomirski was proven to be J-L283 via a family tree direct descendent. Or is this jsut a theory based on various men of similar surname or claimed descendence?

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I was going for Lengyel for quite some time now if you read my posts from the last weeks. But E was there too, just a minority. But this could have been a Western migrant, even more so since they had connections to the Carpathian zone. Lengyel was in the Carpathians and it has proven samples with E1b1b. Even the Michelsberger samples might be closer connected to Lengyel colonisation of the Southern German-Danubian zone, rather than vice versa, though this is debatable.
    But the example of Lengyel-Sopot also shows how careful we must be, because in the Southern Sopot samples which came out recently, not a single E was found! They were all closer to the Middle Danube-Balaton area:
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...935351514&z=10

    So especially widespread cultures need more careful sampling, even more so if they being found to be quite diverse already (like Lengyel-Sopot was).

    Has there been some new ancient ev13 finds or something?
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Has there been some new ancient ev13 finds or something?
    Well, I realised that we have already some autosomal profiles, even if just singular samples from rather irregular burials, so with some uncertainty, from Füzesabony/late Otomani, Kyjatice and Gáva. All three show a clear pattern, being more Corded Ware/Beaker shifted than the J2b block of Illyrians, all three having a pull towards WHG.
    In the new British paper are 4 E-V13 samples, they are all on different positions, but essentially along a cline of Füzesabony (most Corded-shifted) to BGR_IA/MDA_Scythians (Least Corded-shifted), together with other Neolithic haplogroups and R-Z2103, which mixed Balkan samples (Southern pulled) are in some respects intermediate between E-V13 and J2b in position, so between West and East Balkan. The E-V13 being split between Pannonian and East Balkan, J2b is West Balkan.
    So I think my thesis of E-V13 spreading on both sides of the Carpathians is well and alive, even though so far only the Eastern pathway is well-proven with Psenichevo and the Basarabi related finds. If its early on both sides of the Carpathians, regardless of where it was before, E-V13 must have spread with Gáva/Channelled Ware. We need the context of the samples, but going by their autosomal profile, it looks that way I'd say.
    And the only proven E1b1b heavy group in the later Neolithic period being Lengyel, secondarily Michelsberger. Lengyel and Michelsberger were connected, because Lengyel did colonise early deep into Southern Germany, Michelsberger later moved to the East also.

    The Lengyel samples are older
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...7896289014&z=7

    And could have spread over the Danubian pathway.

    Also, recently read that exactly where Füzesabony, Kyjatice and Gáva were coming up, in the Northern Carpathians, Lengyel survived the longest, and they were reknowned miners and metallurgists to their end. Same goes for Füzesabony and Kyjatice-Gáva. If there a Northern Pannonian cluster is real, which contains R-Z2103, E-V13, J2a, H and I2, it would fit into the scheme for a mixed group with Lengyel elements in included.
    The new Verteba paper adds another possibly Gáva related (female) individual to this North Pannonian cluster and it adds that in the Pannonian-Carpathian-Ukrainian zone a WHG pulled Neolithic population existed, which we later see in Mako. And this population brought up, by mixing with Epi-Corded and other Neolithics, this North Pannonian cluster. So there is definitely something going on in the North Carpathians and this mixed group did expand two times, first with Unetice, second with Urnfield. The unusually high WHG in the Tollense samples might be related to this too.

  11. #761
    Regular Member Johane Derite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Well, I realised that we have already some autosomal profiles, even if just singular samples from rather irregular burials, so with some uncertainty, from F�zesabony/late Otomani, Kyjatice and G�va. All three show a clear pattern, being more Corded Ware/Beaker shifted than the J2b block of Illyrians, all three having a pull towards WHG.
    In the new British paper are 4 E-V13 samples, they are all on different positions, but essentially along a cline of F�zesabony (most Corded-shifted) to BGR_IA/MDA_Scythians (Least Corded-shifted), together with other Neolithic haplogroups and R-Z2103, which mixed Balkan samples (Southern pulled) are in some respects intermediate between E-V13 and J2b in position, so between West and East Balkan. The E-V13 being split between Pannonian and East Balkan, J2b is West Balkan.
    So I think my thesis of E-V13 spreading on both sides of the Carpathians is well and alive, even though so far only the Eastern pathway is well-proven with Psenichevo and the Basarabi related finds. If its early on both sides of the Carpathians, regardless of where it was before, E-V13 must have spread with G�va/Channelled Ware. We need the context of the samples, but going by their autosomal profile, it looks that way I'd say.
    And the only proven E1b1b heavy group in the later Neolithic period being Lengyel, secondarily Michelsberger. Lengyel and Michelsberger were connected, because Lengyel did colonise early deep into Southern Germany, Michelsberger later moved to the East also.
    The Lengyel samples are older
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...7896289014&z=7
    And could have spread over the Danubian pathway.
    Also, recently read that exactly where F�zesabony, Kyjatice and G�va were coming up, in the Northern Carpathians, Lengyel survived the longest, and they were reknowned miners and metallurgists to their end. Same goes for F�zesabony and Kyjatice-G�va. If there a Northern Pannonian cluster is real, which contains R-Z2103, E-V13, J2a, H and I2, it would fit into the scheme for a mixed group with Lengyel elements in included.
    The new Verteba paper adds another possibly G�va related (female) individual to this North Pannonian cluster and it adds that in the Pannonian-Carpathian-Ukrainian zone a WHG pulled Neolithic population existed, which we later see in Mako. And this population brought up, by mixing with Epi-Corded and other Neolithics, this North Pannonian cluster. So there is definitely something going on in the North Carpathians and this mixed group did expand two times, first with Unetice, second with Urnfield. The unusually high WHG in the Tollense samples might be related to this too.
    Thank you, I seem to have missed this Verteba paper and this British paper, as I haven't been on in a while, is there a link to the 4ev13? They are autosomally plotting corded ware like?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Thank you, I seem to have missed this Verteba paper and this British paper, as I haven't been on in a while, is there a link to the 4ev13? They are autosomally plotting corded ware like?
    No, one plots like Füzesabony, so more Corded Ware than Gáva and Kyjatice, one plots close to Gáva-Kyjatice, but somewhat more Southern (like where I would expect Eastern Hallstatt), a third looks more ancient, Mokrin like, but could very well be from the Central Balkans and a 4th is East Balkan oriented, so either from Bulgaria or close by, or, that's where he plots closest, related to Moldovan "Scythians". There was already one Geto-Scythian with a similar profile which was E-V13 from Glinoe.

    I wrote about it here:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...kan-case/page8

    Sorted coordinates from rafc:
    Sample_name Hg Coords (scaled)
    I16272 E1b1b1a1b1~ Celtic_paper:I16272,0.125205,0.132019,0.062602,0.0 62985,0.041854,0.013945,-0.001175,-0.000923,0.008385,-0.005103,-0.012829,0.00015,0.000595,0.008808,0.012758,0.0059 67,-0.00339,-0.001267,0.000628,0.012631,-0.000499,0.004575,0.000246,-0.003735,-0.00491
    I18527 E1b1b1a1b1~ Celtic_paper:I18527,0.122929,0.142174,0.04714,0.02 7778,0.042162,0.003068,0.00094,0.004154,0.018612,0 .013303,-0.01494,0.003897,-0.008474,0.001376,-0.004207,-0.003978,0.000913,-0.0019,0.002388,-0.003252,-0.003119,0.004575,-0.000739,-0.012532,-0.007185
    I18832 E1b1b1a1b1a Celtic_paper:I18832,0.121791,0.149283,0.019987,-0.024871,0.029852,-0.010319,-0.002585,-0.003,0.009817,0.030433,-0.002598,0.004946,-0.015758,-0.005367,-0.024294,0.002121,0.025295,0.006841,0.008296,-0.007379,-0.016471,0.000618,0,0.008555,-0.001916
    I14465 E1b1b1a1b1a20~ Celtic_paper:I14465,0.132035,0.145221,0.041483,-0.004199,0.047393,-0.009761,-0.00564,0.006692,0.01084,0.02041,-0.005196,0.01094,-0.01115,0.00812,-0.009908,-0.009679,0.011995,0.000127,0.006662,0.009379,-0.004243,0.006801,0.000493,-0.021087,-0.001317
    I22940 J2b2a1 Celtic_paper:I22940,0.124067,0.152329,0.036581,-0.00646,0.039392,0.002231,-0.001175,0.000692,0.017794,0.034078,0.004709,0.007 343,-0.023042,-0.002752,-0.0038,-0.023203,-0.01356,0.005954,0.006913,-0.000125,-0.006738,0.001731,-0.003451,-0.004217,0.002634
    I24345 J2b2a1 Celtic_paper:I24345,0.122929,0.147252,0.064111,0.0 20672,0.035699,-0.021475,0.015746,0.009,-0.001841,0.016401,-0.007795,0.005995,-0.048463,-0.018029,-0.005836,0.001724,-0.028684,0.012542,0.00905,-0.016008,-0.010232,-0.004451,0.003451,-0.009881,0.003592
    I5691 J2b2a1a1a~ Celtic_paper:I5691,0.129758,0.146236,0.043369,0.00 6783,0.044008,-0.000837,-0.002585,-0.000231,0.012885,0.028429,0.002761,0.008243,-0.016501,-0.011423,0.002443,-0.001989,0.004433,0.00228,-0.002137,0.002001,0.000374,0.006925,-0.000616,0.001687,0.000239
    I26726 J2b2a1a1a1a1a Celtic_paper:I26726,0.121791,0.14319,0.029038,-0.013243,0.024928,-0.000837,-0.006345,-0.006461,0.007772,0.027518,0.013803,0.004796,-0.023191,-0.00289,-0.002172,-0.014452,-0.013951,0.003167,0.013575,-0.008129,-0.003743,0.008656,0.005546,0.003976,-0.000479
    I23911 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I23911,0.126344,0.140143,0.032432,-0.005814,0.044316,-0.002231,-0.004935,0.002077,0.012271,0.038999,0.000325,0.010 94,-0.012042,-0.007432,0.005157,-0.005701,-0.001565,0.004687,0.011439,-0.004627,0.001872,0.001237,-0.002588,-0.002771,-0.005269
    I24638 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I24638,0.129758,0.149283,0.033564,0.0 04845,0.038161,0.005857,0.00705,0.010846,0.011453, 0.028793,0.001949,0.011839,-0.020812,-0.008533,0.002172,-0.000796,0.002608,0.008108,0.006662,0.003001,-0.007612,-0.001978,0.002218,-0.012291,-0.003113
    I24639 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I24639,0.124067,0.149283,0.028284,-0.002261,0.031083,0.000558,0.000705,0.005077,0.007 976,0.022962,0.001299,0.006594,-0.01115,-0.004542,-0.00475,-0.005171,-0.014342,-0.005574,0.004022,-0.005127,-0.0141,0.004822,0.003328,-0.006145,0.005987
    I24882 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I24882,0.133173,0.146236,0.033941,0.0 01615,0.040931,-0.006972,-0.000235,0.000231,0.002863,0.019135,-0.000325,0.01169,-0.016204,-0.005367,-0.0019,0.00305,0.009257,-0.001014,0.007416,-0.006753,-0.003369,0.008285,0.001972,0.00976,-0.009101
    I26742 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I26742,0.122929,0.148267,0.024136,-0.010013,0.034776,-0.003068,0.000705,0.000692,0.010431,0.032256,0.004 222,0.006444,-0.024083,-0.012524,-0.006515,0.00358,0.00691,0.00076,0.012947,-0.010255,-0.002496,0.001607,0.00419,0.011447,-0.006826
    I4998 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I4998,0.118376,0.161469,0.016216,-0.022287,0.034776,-0.009203,-0.003525,0.001615,0.01268,0.028247,0.003573,0.0041 96,-0.019772,-0.008533,-0.010315,0.01074,0.025686,-0.004181,0.003897,0.011881,-0.002496,0.006677,0.007272,-0.000723,-0.008502
    I23995 J2b2a1a1a1b2~ Celtic_paper:I23995,0.122929,0.146236,0.026021,0.0 01292,0.036007,0.002231,0.00564,0.000692,0.009204, 0.026242,-0.007795,0.009142,-0.014866,-0.00234,0.000271,0.001458,0.005476,0.007601,0.0084 22,0.004002,0.000125,-0.003215,-0.003574,-0.005061,0.000718
    I0371 R1b1a1b1b Celtic_paper:I0371,0.124067,0.097491,0.041483,0.10 9821,-0.022158,0.04769,0.00846,0.000231,-0.050926,-0.067792,-0.002111,-0.003447,0.004906,-0.018992,0.027416,0.005834,-0.011604,0.00228,-0.002514,0.007128,-0.004367,0.003586,0.002095,0.020244,0.002994
    I17312 R1b1a1b1b Celtic_paper:I17312,0.126344,0.125926,0.058454,0.0 31654,0.041854,0.016455,-0.004465,0.021691,0.009817,0.003098,0.000325,0.002 098,-0.000743,0.007294,0.007057,0.005436,0.006389,0.011 529,0.013827,0.005002,0.003993,0.009645,-0.007765,-0.001325,-0.002275
    I0231 R1b1a1b1b3a Celtic_paper:I0231,0.119514,0.080227,0.043746,0.11 2405,-0.033237,0.053268,0,-0.006231,-0.055017,-0.074717,-0.001949,0.002398,0.003271,-0.023121,0.03203,0.019225,0.007302,-0.00152,-0.002765,0.012256,-0.005241,-0.004328,0.005053,0.011206,0.002754
    I0438 R1b1a1b1b3a Celtic_paper:I0438,0.121791,0.085304,0.045254,0.11 9188,-0.030159,0.046854,0.002585,0.001846,-0.063402,-0.077633,0.001949,0.005245,-0.010258,-0.029314,0.030401,0.002121,0.004172,-0.005068,-0.008673,0.018884,0.002121,0.00643,0.014173,0.0231 36,-0.007664
    I0440 R1b1a1b1b3a Celtic_paper:I0440,0.127482,0.091398,0.040352,0.11 079,-0.033237,0.045459,0.00705,0.004384,-0.05604,-0.077268,0.002273,0.001199,-0.002973,-0.013074,0.035966,0.005436,-0.011343,-0.005701,-0.010559,0.009505,-0.001747,0.002844,0.012202,0.022533,0.001317
    I13467 R1b1a1b1b3a Celtic_paper:I13467,0.124067,0.122879,0.055814,0.0 84303,0.012002,0.032072,0.002585,0.006461,-0.015748,-0.037723,-0.001461,0.002548,-0.011893,-0.010872,0.029044,-0.009281,-0.017471,0.001267,0.003645,0.007128,0.002745,-0.001731,0.003204,0.010242,0.001078
    I4996 R1b1a1b1b3a Celtic_paper:I4996,0.132035,0.145221,0.04978,0.022 61,0.044931,0.016176,0.00188,0.005538,0.01718,0.01 4579,-0.005521,0.006294,-0.007582,-0.006606,-0.003257,0.008618,0.002347,0.003041,0.010559,0.000 875,0,0.000866,0.008751,0.004699,0.001078
    I14983 R1b1a1b1b3a1 Celtic_paper:I14983,0.127482,0.144205,0.056568,0.0 323,0.042777,0.008367,0.004465,0.004846,0.009613,0 .006743,-0.002923,0.005245,-0.013825,-0.012248,0.008007,0.005304,0.004303,0.003421,-0.002137,0.005628,0.018093,0.014838,0.007272,-0.000482,0.005987
    I23207 R1b1a1b1b3a1a Celtic_paper:I23207,0.124067,0.153345,0.047517,0.0 10659,0.048624,0.001116,0.00188,0.001385,0.016362, 0.023508,0.002923,-0.001349,0.001338,0.00578,-0.0095,0.017369,0.02047,-0.003801,0.00264,0.005628,0.00287,0.007543,-0.006902,-0.016629,0.000359
    I23209 R1b1a1b1b3a1a Celtic_paper:I23209,0.126344,0.149283,0.036958,-0.006137,0.042777,-0.010319,0.00141,0.001615,0.003272,0.024784,-0.003735,0.006744,-0.014866,-0.005918,-0.012622,0.006762,0.02047,0.001014,0.013198,0.0077 54,-0.010232,0.005935,-0.005423,-0.008917,0.003712

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18885-A-theory-about-the-origin-of-E-V13&p=814369&viewfull=1#post814369

    The exact subclades are not always safe of course, but the general grouping is fairly safe at this point.

  13. #763
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    Is this proven by direct descendant DNA testing? like the House of Lubomirski was proven to be J-L283 via a family tree direct descendent. Or is this jsut a theory based on various men of similar surname or claimed descendence?
    It is based of a scientific study of male lines. But they were not homogenous.


    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...one.0041803#s2


    The fact that it is the most numerous (9 samples), as well as the only Basarad haplogroup spread in more than one region geographically, while at the same time being a haplogroup not typical of the area lends credibility to the House of Basarab, and with it the house of Draculesti (Vlad the Impaler) having been L283. Nonetheless this is not conclusive, barring the analysis of confirmed Basarab Princely bones.

    Both E-V13 and L283 are way overrepresented compared to Romanian baseline. The issue is that 9 of the L283 samples are of the same branch, whereas V13 is split in 3 different branches. I came to know of this and to this conclusion from Asprug, a member very knowledgeable on V13 being one himself, and he was leaning to wards this paper hinting at L283 being the Basarab haplogroup.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    ― Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    ...whereas V13 is split in 3 different branches
    Do you know which branches = subclades?

  15. #765
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Do you know which branches = subclades?
    Not really sure. Maybe Aspurg might know.

    "None is an exact haplotype match, and these coincidences may be caused either by sharing a recent common ancestor with the Basarab, or by the homoplastic nature of STR mutation. Three Basarab founding lineages are found in haplogroup E1b1b1a2-V13; if they were considered together, their joint age would be 1740±615 years, well beyond the establishment of the Romanian nobility. Similarly, if the two lineages in haplogroup I2a-P37.2 were pooled, their joint age would be 960±480 years, or 250 years before the actual founding of the Basarab dynasty. Only Basarab individuals were considered in the age estimations."
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e-0041803-t002

    There is a table with DYS values in that link, maybe that is a way to find out. But as you can see the above analysis kinda points out to the impossibility of those three branches having split after the first Basarab Noble created the line.

  16. #766
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I was going for Lengyel for quite some time now if you read my posts from the last weeks. But E was there too, just a minority. But this could have been a Western migrant, even more so since they had connections to the Carpathian zone. Lengyel was in the Carpathians and it has proven samples with E1b1b. Even the Michelsberger samples might be closer connected to Lengyel colonisation of the Southern German-Danubian zone, rather than vice versa, though this is debatable.
    But the example of Lengyel-Sopot also shows how careful we must be, because in the Southern Sopot samples which came out recently, not a single E was found! They were all closer to the Middle Danube-Balaton area:
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...935351514&z=10

    So especially widespread cultures need more careful sampling, even more so if they being found to be quite diverse already (like Lengyel-Sopot was).
    Odds for Lengyel look minimal as well. The Tisza Culture from North Carpathians have 0% E-L618. They belong to G2a and I2a. Just as Trypillian Neolithics didn't carry J2b2-L283, again they are a mixture of G2a and I2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Odds for Lengyel look minimal as well. The Tisza Culture from North Carpathians have 0% E-L618. They belong to G2a and I2a. Just as Trypillian Neolithics didn't carry J2b2-L283, again they are a mixture of G2a and I2a.
    There might have been up and down migration along the Tisza multiple times, but I wouldn't be sure about the North Carpathians yet, the samples are rather limited - the more Füzesabony-like sample might be really interesting in this respect.


    In this context, here is a short but quite telling video about the Carpathian Late Bronze Age - no ancient DNA, but important hints nevertheless:


    There is also a graph showing the cultural formations by period up to the Late Bronze Age:



    https://ibb.co/T1Z18xf

    Screenshot from: OF INCINERATION BURIALS AND FUNERARY METALS DURING THE LATE BRONZE AGE IN THE EASTERN CARPATHIAN
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0duSqW6aHQo

    Berkesz-Demecser, also sometimes included Csorva and Suciu de Sus, being among the "pre-Gáva" cultural formations and Lăpuș II being basically seen as Gáva so we have this group of cultures out of which Gáva and Channelled Ware in the wider sense develops concentrated in the Upper Tisza and North Western Transyvlanian, generally North Pannonian-Carpathian zone. Very important notes from this lecture are the richness of Lăpuș in particular as well as the very early MBA-LBA usage of iron in these groups.

    Note that all early iron finds he brought up in the lecture come from the region of Gáva, with sites like Demecser, Igrita and Lăpuș! They were definitely among the pioneers which used iron in this whole macro-region. The only exception was the site of Bobda.

    Bobda being part of the so called Corva-Bobda I type:

    Following the geographical disposing of the archaeological sites, in concordance with the evolution phases of the Cruceni-Belegiš culture, there were noticed few spreading directions. The causes of that movement of populations of Cruceni-Belegiš type were, probably, of economic order (the contacts with the Mycennean world) and they were maybe the result of a pressure coming from the Pannonian Plain (the so-called „elements of Csórva-Bobda I type”
    https://de.scribd.com/document/84907...LTURE-WITH-THE

    So the only more Southern iron find being because of an intrusive element coming down from the Pannonian plain.

    About a more generalised view:

    The earliest urnfields are observable in the north-eastern area. No Tumulus cultures existed on these territories in the Middle Bronze Age, or were only a marginal expression of the cultural and historical development, for example in the upper Tisza Basin, south-central Slovakia, and the hilly areas of northern Hungary. As far as geography and chronology are concerned, the south-eastern urnfields can be divided into western and eastern parts, and earlier and later phases. The western region saw the rise of the Piliny and Kyjatice cultures, while the Suciu de Sus, Berkesz-Demecser, and Gáva cultures occupied the eastern part.
    If we ignore the earlier cremation burials of Vatya and Hatvan cultures, the Piliny culture is the earliest Urnfield culture in central Europe, running from Bz B1 to Ha A1.
    [...]

    Taking into account both settlements (Vcelince) and cemeteries (Tornala) of the early period (Bz B1, the Otomani-Piliny horizon), the area over which the culture crystallised was small.
    https://books.google.de/books?id=hef...page&q&f=false

  18. #768
    Regular Member Galaxy Overlord's Avatar
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    Does anyone know what Albanian tribes have the largest percent of J-L283?

  19. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    Does anyone know what Albanian tribes have the largest percent of J-L283?
    Some prominent Albanian J2b-L283 tribes:


    Last edited by Trojet; 21-11-21 at 13:58.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    5 members found this post helpful.
    Here is a map/database that contains all the published ancient J2b-L283 samples. Will try to update it as new samples are published:


    https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...QX&usp=sharing

  21. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Here is a map/database that contains all the published ancient J2b-L283 samples. Will try to update it as new samples are published:


    https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...QX&usp=sharing
    Excellent work Trojet! I was wondering though if some are missing like wasn't there a J2b2 Viking and the recent Slovenia sample?

  22. #772
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Here is a map/database that contains all the published ancient J2b-L283 samples. Will try to update it as new samples are published:


    https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...QX&usp=sharing
    Well done!

    Not sure if a list/excel with age, location, paper could also be helpful.
    An absolute boon would be links to the BAMs / G25 coordinates.

    I could try to find the G25 coordinates, a bit harder to find the BAMs as I never really looked into those things.

    With these addendums this would be the go to tool as far as ancient L283 goes!

  23. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Excellent work Trojet! I was wondering though if some are missing like wasn't there a J2b2 Viking and the recent Slovenia sample?
    Good catch! I'm missing the two medieval J-Z631>Z1043 samples (KRA010, Germany and VK346, Sweden). Will add them too. The Iron Age Slovenian sample is not published in a paper yet. I'll add him as soon as published, along with the other samples from that upcoming paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Well done!

    Not sure if a list/excel with age, location, paper could also be helpful.
    An absolute boon would be links to the BAMs / G25 coordinates.

    I could try to find the G25 coordinates, a bit harder to find the BAMs as I never really looked into those things.

    With these addendums this would be the go to tool as far as ancient L283 goes!
    If you click on each sample on the map, you should actually be able to see all those details. So I don't think such list/excel is needed at this point.

    Yeah, G25 coordinates would be useful. If someone is willing to find and send them to me, I can add them.

  24. #774
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting, maybe a similar map for E-V13 would be nice, if not made already.

    Great work.

  25. #775
    Regular Member Galaxy Overlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Some prominent Albanian J2b-L283 tribes:
    Are there any studies that have shown the percents of J-L283 among the various tribes? I'm trying to find which tribe(or tribes) has the highest percent.

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