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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    Are there any studies that have shown the percents of J-L283 among the various tribes? I'm trying to find which tribe(or tribes) has the highest percent.
    studies show that J-L283 originates in north caucasus



    percent is lower than what is found in Italy

    there is also this
    https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-t...sia-to-europe/
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    I don't know anything about J and its subclades.

    Here are some of J2 subclades you asked for:













    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....288#post817288

  3. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    Are there any studies that have shown the percents of J-L283 among the various tribes? I'm trying to find which tribe(or tribes) has the highest percent.
    The problem is with the question. The way tribal society worked/works in North Albania is fully patrilineal (barring non paternal events/adoptions due to no offspring).

    Meaning each tribe has one genuine Y-DNA.
    So the question about percentages does not really apply here.
    It is sometimes hard to grasp this as bona fide tribal societies are few in the west. But think of the clans in Scotland / Ireland, it should be similar.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Hmm... given FTDNAs database is quite bigger than Yfulls. Ph2ter mentioned the data is from FTDNA database.

    This is quite significant



    Look at all that L283 around Swiss/SW Germany/SE France.

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    torzio take your medication and get out of my thread thank you

  6. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Interesting, maybe a similar map for E-V13 would be nice, if not made already.

    Great work.
    Agree one for EV13 would be great as there is a lot of speculation regarding it right now, would be nice to have the little data available readily at hand at least. But it might be a lot of work having to maintain all these maps not sure it's feasible in that regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Hmm... given FTDNAs database is quite bigger than Yfulls. Ph2ter mentioned the data is from FTDNA database.

    This is quite significant



    Look at all that L283 around Swiss/SW Germany/SE France.
    Any significance of the region there around France and North Italy? A friend told me it's the region of Celtic heartland (personally I'm weary of attributing a haplo like j2b2 like that because I feel migrations from all those thousands of years need to be taken in mind)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    torzio take your medication and get out of my thread thank you

    And for the record, there is currently no "studies" that show J-L283 originated in the Caucasus. All he is doing is recycling some (outdated) map of some ancient samples.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post

    And for the record there is currently no "studies" that show J-L283 originated in the Caucasus. All he is doing is recycling some (outdated) map of some ancient samples.
    The maps he posts rarely make sense anyway, he once posted a map where illyricum was a region in Romania and modern Albania some dacian or other crazy stuff. Just nonsense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Agree one for EV13 would be great as there is a lot of speculation regarding it right now, would be nice to have the little data available readily at hand at least. But it might be a lot of work having to maintain all these maps not sure it's feasible in that regard.
    Yes, hopefully in the upcoming years, a lot of the cloudiness will finally be cleared up, and maybe for once we will get a clear picture of our genetic ancestors, that it be Y-dna, & autosomal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Interesting, maybe a similar map for E-V13 would be nice, if not made already.
    Great work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Agree one for EV13 would be great as there is a lot of speculation regarding it right now, would be nice to have the little data available readily at hand at least. But it might be a lot of work having to maintain all these maps not sure it's feasible in that regard.
    There is currently this one, but it has all the "E" ancient samples lumped together: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...M.kHmbTTiPAdtQ

    Agree, it would be good to have a specific one for E-L618>V13 as well..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post

    And for the record, there is currently no "studies" that show J-L283 originated in the Caucasus. All he is doing is recycling some (outdated) map of some ancient samples.

    thanks for confirming that ancient samples do not count for you .............we all know your agenda

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    thanks for confirming that ancient samples do not count for you .............we all know your agenda
    Since I have some time to waste.. did I say ancient samples don't count? The Caucasus samples are too young to suggest an origin there. Besides, you claimed there is "studies" that show J-L283 originates in the Caucasus. And please, I'd like to hear more about my "agenda"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Any significance of the region there around France and North Italy? A friend told me it's the region of Celtic heartland (personally I'm weary of attributing a haplo like j2b2 like that because I feel migrations from all those thousands of years need to be taken in mind)
    Not really. There is a sample bias on FTDNA, as Western Europeans are overrepresented there. Further, as can be seen on the J2b-L283 aDNA map, there is currently no J-L283 older than 2000 ybp North of Balkans and Italy, with first samples appearing in the Medieval period (and both J-Z631, which is one of the more common subclades there). So no hard evidence continental Celts and such had any J-L283 at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Not really. There is a sample bias on FTDNA, as Western Europeans are overrepresented there. Further, as can be seen on the J2b-L283 aDNA map, there is currently no J-L283 older than 2000 ybp North of Balkans and Italy, with first samples appearing in the Medieval period (and both J-Z631, which is one of the more common subclades there). So no hard evidence continental Celts and such had any J-L283 at this point.

    The early Neolithic split of J2b2a-M241 (YFull 9700 ybp) in to the modern western (L283, Balkans) and eastern (Z2444, India) subclades is detected since at least a decade trough testing of the M241 SNP in scientific studies. According to the current YFull L283 samples the lineages expanded sometime earlier than 5200 ybp, while the Asian lineages expanded since 7100 ybp. This gives ca. 4000 years to the L283 lineages to move away from the split from Z2444

  16. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Not really. There is a sample bias on FTDNA, as Western Europeans are overrepresented there. Further, as can be seen on the J2b-L283 aDNA map, there is currently no J-L283 older than 2000 ybp North of Balkans and Italy, with first samples appearing in the Medieval period (and both J-Z631, which is one of the more common subclades there). So no hard evidence continental Celts and such had any J-L283 at this point.
    Ya, I'm of the opinion that the heavy English and South Western German samples are roman mediated migration along the border urban centers, rather than Celtic expansion theories. But I also believe that the amount in these areas is likely very significant, even when accounting for the overrepresentation of western Europe samples. Also, what is with all of the agenda arguments I keep seeing among haplogroup threads? Is this some sort of Balkan argument I don't understand?

  17. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    Ya, I'm of the opinion that the heavy English and South Western German samples are roman mediated migration along the border urban centers, rather than Celtic expansion theories. But I also believe that the amount in these areas is likely very significant, even when accounting for the overrepresentation of western Europe samples. Also, what is with all of the agenda arguments I keep seeing among haplogroup threads? Is this some sort of Balkan argument I don't understand?

    Well, it's torzio, an Italian guy, not Trojet who claimed someone has an agenda, so it's not just a Balkan thing.
    I've been on this forum for a long time now, and the same guy, namely torzio (has gone by a million different names, and is on more forums) is still doing his usual shtick for all of these years; namely undermining Albanian relation to the Illyrians which in turns undermines our history and ethnicity. Keep in mind that the Caucasus theory of Albanians was well and alive when I joined, not even long ago J2-L283 was "Sardinian" even according to the Riverman guy who is a little more sophisticated and honest compared to torzio. Having such a long experience on anthrofora I have come to the conclusion of simply not taking foreigners opinions, unless scholars, very seriously on Albanians and their connection to the Illyrians. They've always been wrong, either with malicious intent or refusal of engaging with the data we currently have. It's only recently that people are finally even able to concede and admit that J2-L283 has a strong connection to the Illyrians, years ago no one would ever say this.

  18. #793
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    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Any significance of the region there around France and North Italy? A friend told me it's the region of Celtic heartland (personally I'm weary of attributing a haplo like j2b2 like that because I feel migrations from all those thousands of years need to be taken in mind)
    This cluster is mainly under J-Z631 and even more precisely J-Z1043 (It starts an intense diversification around 800BC, ~45 branches starting betwenn 900 and 500BC for J-Z631 subclades), most of the subclades are found here or centered on this location.
    Location (south Germany, Swiss, Northern Italy, Eastern France) and time of diversification are strong hints that Celtic peoples are very good contenders to be involved in the diffusion of this clade.
    The so-called "Roman" ancient J-Z631, from 1900BP, bearing a very west-European admixture also hint toward such origin.

    It is not unlikely that this clade arrives here (Austria/South Germany) from the Balkan around 1000BC.

    Thechnically, I'm (J-Z631) just at the edge of this cluster on the French side (north-east France), but I'm not appearing in FTDNA or YFULL databases, so I'm not on this map. Thus, I do know that this cluster extends a little bit more toward France, but north-east France is poorly sampled in DNA databases .
    Funny thing, among ancient DNA samples, my closest match is the 1900BP J-Z631 Roman sample that carries an haplogroup similar to mine.

  19. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Well, it's torzio, an Italian guy, not Trojet who claimed someone has an agenda, so it's not just a Balkan thing.
    I've been on this forum for a long time now, and the same guy, namely torzio (has gone by a million different names, and is on more forums) is still doing his usual shtick for all of these years; namely undermining Albanian relation to the Illyrians which in turns undermines our history and ethnicity. Keep in mind that the Caucasus theory of Albanians was well and alive when I joined, not even long ago J2-L283 was "Sardinian" even according to the Riverman guy who is a little more sophisticated and honest compared to torzio. Having such a long experience on anthrofora I have come to the conclusion of simply not taking foreigners opinions, unless scholars, very seriously on Albanians and their connection to the Illyrians. They've always been wrong, either with malicious intent or refusal of engaging with the data we currently have. It's only recently that people are finally even able to concede and admit that J2-L283 has a strong connection to the Illyrians, years ago no one would ever say this.
    I am only in 2 sites ..............you have me mixed up with others....more fabrication by you.
    I find your hate for ancient dardanians an issue, a huge issue..........because they are the real/original albanians and you cannot handle this.
    besides I enjoy the banter of the discussion............your albanian propaganda you where taught in school , especially since 1975 , when your gov'nt disregard the gheg group is why you are wrong. ..............Romans took modern Albania from the macedonians, who took it from the epirotes in 314BC
    I await your reply

  20. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    But I also believe that the amount in these areas is likely very significant, even when accounting for the overrepresentation of western Europe samples.
    I agree with that, the overdensity of L283 in southern Germany is still there even when normalizing by the total number of DNA tests.
    Thus, this over-density cannot be explained by a sampling bias, but does represent something.
    Plus, south Germany/Chzecia/Austria are "old" diversity centers for Z631 and Z1043 (even if you cut recent subclades, there is still a lot a diversity there), therefore sampling bias is not creating this cluster, this cluster is a reality, with a historical explanation that can be studied.

    I'm of the opinion that the heavy English and South Western German samples are roman mediated migration along the border urban centers
    We already talked a bit about that, but I'm disagreeing with this claim mainly because of the timescale for J-Z631 diversification (which is happening aroung 2800BP, not 2000BP).

    For instance, when looking at the "diversity" center for J-Z631 you fall on Austria, when looking at the diversity center for J-Z1043 you fall in Germany/Czechia.
    There is secondary centers nearby Albania, but those ones are likely produced by sampling bias, because Albania is over-sampled (and concerns clades with recent common ancestors which biased diversity toward events that happened way after the one we are discussing).
    If you only consider Z1043 subslades with a defined common ancestor prior Roman times (to remove as much as possible the impact of event posterior to roman times), you see that the diversity center is around Bohemia.

    Thus, for a Roman based migration to work, you'll need to have the J-Z631 population significantly increasing around 800BC in the Balkan (why ? In which context ? What is the origin of the demographic "boom" able to explain ~45 new lines in few hundreds years ?).
    Then, you'll need to have Romans arriving, collecting nearly all J-Z631 lines but not others (how ? they didn't had DNA test by that time) and bringing them only to south Germany (why only there and not everywhere in the empire ?).
    It involves many unlikely events to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    studies show that J-L283 originates in north caucasus
    Yet, there is no such demonstration that is valid.
    In fact, there is contradictory hints:
    1- basal clades in caucasus and Croatian sample with high steppe admixture from 3500BP hinting toward a caucasian origin.
    2- Steppe-less basal Nuragic Sardinia clades and the dynamic of L283 dispersal hinting toward a european neolithic origin.

    A global picture can be found including all observation for both theories Steppic or European Neolithic, when building the right story around.
    Yet, there is not enough proof to be 100% sure. Maybe new sample will appear helping to find out.

    Regarding what is known yet, I would personnaly be more aligned with a European Neolithic origin, probably nearby the black-sea (Romania/Modova/Ukrainia) aroung 3500BC.

  22. #797
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    Hi,
    This cluster is mainly under J-Z631 and even more precisely J-Z1043 (It starts an intense diversification around 800BC, ~45 branches starting betwenn 900 and 500BC for J-Z631 subclades), most of the subclades are found here or centered on this location.
    Location (south Germany, Swiss, Northern Italy, Eastern France) and time of diversification are strong hints that Celtic peoples are very good contenders to be involved in the diffusion of this clade.
    The so-called "Roman" ancient J-Z631, from 1900BP, bearing a very west-European admixture also hint toward such origin.
    It is not unlikely that this clade arrives here (Austria/South Germany) from the Balkan around 1000BC.
    Thechnically, I'm (J-Z631) just at the edge of this cluster on the French side (north-east France), but I'm not appearing in FTDNA or YFULL databases, so I'm not on this map. Thus, I do know that this cluster extends a little bit more toward France, but north-east France is poorly sampled in DNA databases .
    Funny thing, among ancient DNA samples, my closest match is the 1900BP J-Z631 Roman sample that carries an haplogroup similar to mine.
    I agree, looking at modern distribution it's easy to theorize "Celtic dispersal" of J-Z631. This view has been held many times before, including me ;) However, keep in mind that if we based things on modern distribution, R1b-M269>L23 would be from Iberia (as was theorized years ago on these forums), J-M241 in Pakistan/India would be as a result of Alexander the Great troops, etc, etc.

    It's also true that Western Europeans are overrepresented at FTDNA. I know this situation quite well as I'm an admin there that deals precisely with this haplogroup. Also, it's not just J-Z631 showing distribution in "Celtic" or Northwestern European regions. Prominent examples are some other J-L283 subclades, as can be seen: J-PH1602, J-Y23094, J-CT11100.

    I'm not discounting the possibility of J-Z631 = Celtic (or any other J-L283 subclade for that matter). However, in today's age, we could use evidence from ancient DNA to support theories or jump into conclusions, which currently doesn't exist in this case, when in fact those regions are some of the better tested. I also linked you the upcoming paper a few days ago which is supposed to be centered around the Celts and there is zero J-Z631 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...=1#post634750).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Not really. There is a sample bias on FTDNA, as Western Europeans are overrepresented there. Further, as can be seen on the J2b-L283 aDNA map, there is currently no J-L283 older than 2000 ybp North of Balkans and Italy, with first samples appearing in the Medieval period (and both J-Z631, which is one of the more common subclades there). So no hard evidence continental Celts and such had any J-L283 at this point.
    You are right about sampling bias, but its not "Western Europeans" in general, but especially in this order:
    - British Isles
    - South West Germany (especially Baden-Wuerttemberg, Palatinate)
    - Some Balkan countries (especially Albania)
    - the rest

    E.g., there are disproportionally Germans from specific parts of the country well represented, whereas others not as much. That's more obvious on the German project map, even if correcting for population density. Its just where a lot of early German migrants to the USA came from. Exactly the region in South Western Germany is the best sampled part of the country and all German speakers. E.g. Bavaria, Austria, Saxony have much less testers. its however still less for SW-Germany than England, and the same bias is absolutely not present on YFull, where much more people from the Balkans uploaded than from Germany. The biases are not the same on FTDNA and YFull. This means on FTDNA a lot will be pulled towards SW-Germany, on YFull to Albania-Kosovo. England being overrepresented on both.
    That doesn't mean a trend isn't real, but e.g. for E-V13 the comparison of Liguria, Romania, Moldova, Southern Italy is quite clear, these countries are definitely underrepresented, as well as some other German regions even. The concentration on SW-Germany is just not as high as it seems, but that's what FTDNA has, its primarily made up by US citizens still.

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    Hi Trojet,

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I agree, looking at modern distribution it's easy to theorize "Celtic dispersal" of J-Z631. This view has been held many times before, including me ;) However, keep in mind that if we based things on modern distribution, R1b-M269>L23 would be from Iberia (as was theorized years ago on these forums), J-M241 in Pakistan/India would be as a result of Alexander the Great troops, etc, etc.
    I do agree that modern distribution only is unsufficient (many thing can happen, including uni-directionnal diffusion, population replacement, ...), what was important in my post was the timescale.
    From 900 to 500BC there is ~45 surviving branches of Z631 who started. This is a big indication that J-Z631 population experienced a big "boom" at that time.
    Timeframe and distribution are fitting. This is the main point.
    Also note that excluding very particular context, diversity centers (not density centers) are good proxy for haplogroup origin.

    Placing L23 in Iberia sounds weird to me ... diversity of modern descendent haplogroups are not pointing there at all ... like not at all ! A superficial analysis should normaly be enough to exclude Iberia as a place of origin.
    That's what is very important with modern distribution, what matter is not the number of people with a given haplogroup today, it is the number and distribution of branch at the moment of interest (which allows to remove most of the founder effects).

    Same for J-M241 in India/Pakistan, what helps finding out how it arrives there, is to look a the time frame (and the diversity center), that's why J-Z2432 have likely been spread with neolithic peoples toward Pakistan/India and later integrated among Indus-valley peoples.

    It's also true that Western Europeans are overrepresented at FTDNA. I know this situation quite well as I'm an admin there that deals precisely with this haplogroup. Also, it's not just J-Z631 showing distribution in "Celtic" or Northwestern European regions. Prominent examples are some other J-L283 subclades, as can be seen: Y23094, PH1602, CTS11100.
    Truth to be said Y23094, PH1602, and CTS11100 are likely related to Urnfielders (what I was briefly mentionning in one of my first post here), their diffusion hapenned earlier than Z631 which is more likely Hallstatt/La Tène related.
    After, it depends where you place the origin of the Kelts ... with Urnfielders or with Hallstatt-peoples, which is more an historical debate than a DNA-question.


    I'm not discounting the possibility of J-Z631 = Celtic (or any other J-L283 subclade for that matter).
    I don't like the "=" symbol for haplogroup and populations ... it is an oversimplification, caldes can partially enter as they can partially exit cultures. I'm picky, but I rather prefer it this way "J-Z631 Hallstatt". And even, I'm not fully satisfied with this notation.



    However, in today's age, we could use evidence from ancient DNA to support theories or jump into conclusions, which currently doesn't exist in this case, when in fact those regions are some of the better tested.
    Ancient DNA is precious and usefull, but it says things, and there is things it cannot say ! It is important to separate what it can do and what it can't.
    The depth of coverage is way too faint (even in well covered area) to be able to exclude things. Ancient DNA is usefull for dominant haplogroups, not for "rare" ones (here you just rely on luck with ancient DNA, especially in cultures that were praticing cremation).

    Ancient DNA is usefull to confirm the presence of an haplogroup, in no way it can infirms the presence of an haplogroup ... at best it can indicates it is highly unlikely there by finding it somewhere else in a totally unrelated context.

    I also linked you the upcoming paper a few days ago which is supposed to be centered around the Celts and there is zero J-Z631.
    This list perfectly illustrates my point if you think of it in a statistical way.
    For instance, you have haplogroups in this list that only appear once in the full list (quick example : G-U1*) ... which means that a lot of haplogroup with a similar frequency have been missed by this sampling.

    *I didn't checked for subclades if they appeared, but anyway ... there is a lot of one-time-found haplogroup in this list.

    It is like hopping to find a sample of the line from M241 to L283 in the 9500-5500BP timeframe, not impossible ... but it would require a lot of luck, because L283 as the only surviving branche imply that the size of M241 population that will give L283 remained fairly small.

    Also note that the list you quote contains obvious misasignation of haplogroup (ex: Z2432) ... thus I would not use that too much, it is a noisy information. I would consider it carefully.

  25. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Hmm... given FTDNAs database is quite bigger than Yfulls. Ph2ter mentioned the data is from FTDNA database.
    This is quite significant

    Look at all that L283 around Swiss/SW Germany/SE France.
    Maps like these are meaningless when the sources are heavily skewed. Its not about who has the most samples - its about who has the biggest ratio within the country.

    A lot of countries are undertested so they hardly even show up on maps like these. For example v13 has only a small ratio in england but on these maps it will show more v13 than something like greece

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