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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I am only in 2 sites ..............you have me mixed up with others....more fabrication by you.
    I find your hate for ancient dardanians an issue, a huge issue..........because they are the real/original albanians and you cannot handle this.
    besides I enjoy the banter of the discussion............your albanian propaganda you where taught in school , especially since 1975 , when your gov'nt disregard the gheg group is why you are wrong. ..............Romans took modern Albania from the macedonians, who took it from the epirotes in 314BC
    I await your reply
    Your knowledge of history is worse than your knowledge of genetics - please stick to genetics!

    Of course illyrians were one of the first groups to be conquered by the romans but they conquered everyone. Illyrians fought alongside the romans on many occassions and you find y dna like r-z2103 and e-z5018 in tunisia. Where do you think this came from?

  2. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Well, it's torzio, an Italian guy, not Trojet who claimed someone has an agenda, so it's not just a Balkan thing.
    I've been on this forum for a long time now, and the same guy, namely torzio (has gone by a million different names, and is on more forums) is still doing his usual shtick for all of these years; namely undermining Albanian relation to the Illyrians which in turns undermines our history and ethnicity. Keep in mind that the Caucasus theory of Albanians was well and alive when I joined, not even long ago J2-L283 was "Sardinian" even according to the Riverman guy who is a little more sophisticated and honest compared to torzio. Having such a long experience on anthrofora I have come to the conclusion of simply not taking foreigners opinions, unless scholars, very seriously on Albanians and their connection to the Illyrians. They've always been wrong, either with malicious intent or refusal of engaging with the data we currently have. It's only recently that people are finally even able to concede and admit that J2-L283 has a strong connection to the Illyrians, years ago no one would ever say this.
    Albanians not being direct descendents of illyrians doesnt undermine anything, just your fantasies and ideas. Dont forget the illyrians wouldnt have had any south slavic input as they predate them in the balkans by potentially thousands of years, no gothic input (though maybe some early germanic?), no roman input as they predate the emergence of the romans, very little or zero greek input too. We also dont know how much italo celtic input illyrians had, i would imagine those further north near the urnfield region would have had some

    It is clear that most albanian y dna is from paleobalkan people and thats what is important - the direct sources are harder to distinguish as we dont know exactly which lines illyrians, dardanians, thracians/dacians, ancient greeks carried (other than j2a and g2), we can even mention other legendary people/cultures such as "pelasgians", "sea peoples" and many more. History in south europe is huge

    What i would say is illyrian, thracian, dacian etc all emerged with an indo european language and the best candidate for giving them the language is r-z2103 which came straight from yamnaya. With that, it is possible that the proto illyrians, thracians/dacians etc have a common origin and shared other y dna lines before expanding and spreading in different directions

  3. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Your knowledge of history is worse than your knowledge of genetics - please stick to genetics!
    Of course illyrians were one of the first groups to be conquered by the romans but they conquered everyone. Illyrians fought alongside the romans on many occassions and you find y dna like r-z2103 and e-z5018 in tunisia. Where do you think this came from?
    Illyrians, Daco-Thracians, Greeks most likely, but could also be from other people. The frequencies seem to be so low, many might be just individual migrants with subsequent founder effects, similar to Chinese samples of the same kind, most likely from Iranian speakers via Thraco-Scythian steppe backflow.

  4. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Albanians not being direct descendents of illyrians doesnt undermine anything, just your fantasies and ideas. Dont forget the illyrians wouldnt have had any south slavic input as they predate them in the balkans by potentially thousands of years, no gothic input (though maybe some early germanic?), no roman input as they predate the emergence of the romans, very little or zero greek input too. We also dont know how much italo celtic input illyrians had, i would imagine those further north near the urnfield region would have had some
    It is clear that most albanian y dna is from paleobalkan people and thats what is important - the direct sources are harder to distinguish as we dont know exactly which lines illyrians, dardanians, thracians/dacians, ancient greeks carried (other than j2a and g2), we can even mention other legendary people/cultures such as "pelasgians", "sea peoples" and many more. History in south europe is huge
    What i would say is illyrian, thracian, dacian etc all emerged with an indo european language and the best candidate for giving them the language is r-z2103 which came straight from yamnaya. With that, it is possible that the proto illyrians, thracians/dacians etc have a common origin and shared other y dna lines before expanding and spreading in different directions
    when you start adding AD samples to BC samples your history is skewed
    many scholars go by Illyrian as the first branch to break away from Italo-Celtic group and nothing to do with Thracian ( again you are wrong in that dacian is one of the 4 thracian groups )
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

  5. #805
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283-->J-Z631
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi,

    Maps like these are meaningless when the sources are heavily skewed. Its not about who has the most samples - its about who has the biggest ratio within the country.
    The ratio is not that much informative neither ... because it is very sensitive to founder effects.
    The proper way to study modern distributions is to perform an analysis in space and time considering diversity evolution.
    Thus 1000 samples can just count as 1 if at a given "t" you are already before their common ancestor.
    Thus, to reconstruct the history of an haplogroup you can climb back the tree of the haplogroup looking in a reasonable time window (~few hundreds years) where is centered the diversity at that moment.

    It is not biasless, but it is still way better than looking at number-density of modern individuals or looking at fractional number of individuals.

  6. #806
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Regarding a link between proto-Illyrians and J-L283.

    I think that worded that way, it is not a "good" question. First, because J-L283 started to spread around 3500BC whereas Illyrian ethnogenesis is more around ~1200BC. Second because Illyrians were all but an homogeneous group, therefore even if some J-L283 were Illyrians, in no ways a single haplogroup could be considered as a tracer of this population.

    Thus, let track the major J-L283 subclades to understand the diffusion of these haplogroups in Europe.

    -->The clade J-YP91 is very hard to interpret, it never went trough an intense diffusion and is spread in all modern Europe from north to south and west to east ... thus for this first one no clear picture can be drown.

    -->The old clades J-YP157 and J-YP113 are found in Italia, and only there up to now. They splitted more than 5000 years ago from other J-L283, these guys have most-likely no relation to Illyrians. Some J-YP157 have been found in nuragic Sardinia with very neolithic-like admixture. Therefore, it could be either Neolithic line having found refuge in Sardinia, or some very small injection of Indo-european haplogroup among a mostly Neolithic population that remained isolated from other Indo-European genes injection for a significant amount of time.

    -->The clade J-Y15058 starts to present interesting features, mainly a first diffusion around 1800BC that could coincide with Indo-europeans progression. This diffusion mainly occurred in southern Europe. Suclades J-CTS6190 and J-PH1602 could be related to the Urnfield culture, expanding toward Italy for J-CTS6190 and toward balkans J-PH1602. We have here one of the first contender to be related with Illyrian ethnogenesis, J-PH1602.

    --> The clade J-Y21045 that is nearly exclusively Albanian. More precisely, this Albanian clade can be define as J-PH4679 with a separation from others J-L283 around 1200BC. This haplogroup could be related to Illyrian ethnogenesis. There is small diffusion around 1200BC. This clade really went through an intense diffusion way later around 800AD.
    It is however interesting to note that despite being already a moderately diffused haplogroup by roman times, this haplogroup didn't exited Albania. Which would tend to go against diffusion models involving romans for J-L283.
    From 2200BC to 1200BC this clade is hard to localise. It could have entered Albania early, and having been part of an autochnous ethnogenesis for Illyrians, or it could have arrived later around 1200BC, however without sister-clades it is nearly impossible to identify which population would have been involved in its diffusion.

    --> The clade J-Y27522 which also seems to expand in relation to Urnfield culture. It could therefore also be related with Illyrian ethnogenesis.

    --> The clade J-Y21878 with a first diffusion around 1700BC, and a diffusion J-CTS11100 subclass around 1300BC that could also be linked with Urnfield culture. It could therefore also be related with Illyrian ethnogenesis.

    --> Finally the J-Z631 clade and its J-Z1043 subclades which only starts to diffuse around 900 and 800BC respectively that would be more likely related to Hallstatt culture.


    Thus, if I had to identify which J-L283 descendants likely participated to the Illyrian ethnogenesis, I would say
    J-PH4679 (descendant of J-Y21045) and J-Y86181 (subclade of J-Y27522) are the guys !
    Probably linked with a movement southward related to the Urnfield culture.

    J-Y40288 (subclade of J-PH1602) and J-Y166564 (subclade of J-Y21878) are unclear, they diversified fairly recently and could therefore be related to other events that occurred later.

    Going by that reasoning, J-Z597 (descendant of J-L283 and ancestor to J-L283s Urnfielder) could have been somewhere in Central Europe/North Balkan between 2000 and 1200BC.

  7. #807
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    Regarding a link between proto-Illyrians and J-L283.

    I think that worded that way, it is not a "good" question. First, because J-L283 started to spread around 3500BC whereas Illyrian ethnogenesis is more around ~1200BC. Second because Illyrians were all but an homogeneous group, therefore even if some J-L283 were Illyrians, in no ways a single haplogroup could be considered as a tracer of this population.

    Thus, let track the major J-L283 subclades to understand the diffusion of these haplogroups in Europe.

    -->The clade J-YP91 is very hard to interpret, it never went trough an intense diffusion and is spread in all modern Europe from north to south and west to east ... thus for this first one no clear picture can be drown.

    -->The old clades J-YP157 and J-YP113 are found in Italia, and only there up to now. They splitted more than 5000 years ago from other J-L283, these guys have most-likely no relation to Illyrians. Some J-YP157 have been found in nuragic Sardinia with very neolithic-like admixture. Therefore, it could be either Neolithic line having found refuge in Sardinia, or some very small injection of Indo-european haplogroup among a mostly Neolithic population that remained isolated from other Indo-European genes injection for a significant amount of time.

    -->The clade J-Y15058 starts to present interesting features, mainly a first diffusion around 1800BC that could coincide with Indo-europeans progression. This diffusion mainly occurred in southern Europe. Suclades J-CTS6190 and J-PH1602 could be related to the Urnfield culture, expanding toward Italy for J-CTS6190 and toward balkans J-PH1602. We have here one of the first contender to be related with Illyrian ethnogenesis, J-PH1602.

    --> The clade J-Y21045 that is nearly exclusively Albanian. More precisely, this Albanian clade can be define as J-PH4679 with a separation from others J-L283 around 1200BC. This haplogroup could be related to Illyrian ethnogenesis. There is small diffusion around 1200BC. This clade really went through an intense diffusion way later around 800AD.
    It is however interesting to note that despite being already a moderately diffused haplogroup by roman times, this haplogroup didn't exited Albania. Which would tend to go against diffusion models involving romans for J-L283.
    From 2200BC to 1200BC this clade is hard to localise. It could have entered Albania early, and having been part of an autochnous ethnogenesis for Illyrians, or it could have arrived later around 1200BC, however without sister-clades it is nearly impossible to identify which population would have been involved in its diffusion.

    --> The clade J-Y27522 which also seems to expand in relation to Urnfield culture. It could therefore also be related with Illyrian ethnogenesis.

    --> The clade J-Y21878 with a first diffusion around 1700BC, and a diffusion J-CTS11100 subclass around 1300BC that could also be linked with Urnfield culture. It could therefore also be related with Illyrian ethnogenesis.

    --> Finally the J-Z631 clade and its J-Z1043 subclades which only starts to diffuse around 900 and 800BC respectively that would be more likely related to Hallstatt culture.


    Thus, if I had to identify which J-L283 descendants likely participated to the Illyrian ethnogenesis, I would say
    J-PH4679 (descendant of J-Y21045) and J-Y86181 (subclade of J-Y27522) are the guys !
    Probably linked with a movement southward related to the Urnfield culture.

    J-Y40288 (subclade of J-PH1602) and J-Y166564 (subclade of J-Y21878) are unclear, they diversified fairly recently and could therefore be related to other events that occurred later.

    Going by that reasoning, J-Z597 (descendant of J-L283 and ancestor to J-L283s Urnfielder) could have been somewhere in Central Europe/North Balkan between 2000 and 1200BC.
    Great quality post Ghurier. Interesting and reasoned analysis.

    Would appreciate it very much if you could apply your deductive reasoning to the diversity of L283 clades with Albanian flags vis a vis the timeline.

    If only to see what bundle of clades traveled together into the South Balkans to make up part of the Illyri proprie dicti.
    I do believe just based on my arch-clade (21878) alone 3700 years of diversification alone is stipulated. But taking L283 as a whole and potentially same generation/TMRCA J2-m241 in the Balkans could be a key to distinguish which movements could have been responsible for L283 far and wide in Europe.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  8. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Great quality post Ghurier. Interesting and reasoned analysis.

    Would appreciate it very much if you could apply your deductive reasoning to the diversity of L283 clades with Albanian flags vis a vis the timeline.

    If only to see what bundle of clades traveled together into the South Balkans to make up part of the Illyri proprie dicti.
    I do believe just based on my arch-clade (21878) alone 3700 years of diversification alone is stipulated. But taking L283 as a whole and potentially same generation/TMRCA J2-m241 in the Balkans could be a key to distinguish which movements could have been responsible for L283 far and wide in Europe.
    Illyri proprie dicti was a term to indicate illyrian tribes in modern Montenegro ...............most of the tribes are Montenegro except the Taulanti who are in Albania ......but we know that the Taulanti where wiped out by the invading macedonians in 314BC
    There is still questions if the Taulanti where originally Dardanians ...one of the 3 major tribes.

    of the other tribes most are coming south from ancient southern Pannonia which is part of modern Bosnia


  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Illyri proprie dicti was a term to indicate illyrian tribes in modern Montenegro ...............most of the tribes are Montenegro except the Taulanti who are in Albania ......but we know that the Taulanti where wiped out by the invading macedonians in 314BC
    There is still questions if the Taulanti where originally Dardanians ...one of the 3 major tribes.

    of the other tribes most are coming south from ancient southern Pannonia which is part of modern Bosnia

    Mate, Montenegro is not even 10% of the territory you are showing.
    There was no borders at the time, in the last 3300 years people could have spread their seed how they pleased.
    Taulanti "wiped out"? You have issues mate.

    The problem is that half the claims you make are disproved by your own sources, the other half could not possible even have a source, that's how nonsensical they are.

    I try to get the motivation for your posts, across different accounts in the last years in different fora. But you flip flop so much that it makes no sense.
    Sometimes I think some Albanian stole your lunch money in grade school, and that keeps you going to this day.

  10. #810
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
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    I really think you're making a mistake in giving him attention. Just don't reply to him. I'm much more curious with the Convo Gautier has sparked. He has quite interesting views some of which make some sense at least, unlike the stupid Sardinian theory that was commonplace here recently.

  11. #811
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Hi Archetype0ne,

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Would appreciate it very much if you could apply your deductive reasoning to the diversity of L283 clades with Albanian flags vis a vis the timeline.
    I will try for clades with YFULL Albanian "flag".
    First, I really want to precise that this approach to track haplogroup make sense only when there is an "expansion" of the population.
    Basically, between two demographic "booms" we are blind. Thus, for specific entrance in Albania sometimes the time-range will be wide.

    I consider that the likely place the origin of J-L283 in 3500BC is around the Black Sea in the Roumania/Ukrainia/Moldova sector (nearby the rumored Eneolithic Moldovan sample). After, I think it migrated toward Central Europe/North Balkan where it started most of its expansion (post J-Z597 stage after 2500BC).
    The clades will be analyzed in such context ("Out of Central Europe" model).

    Overall, for J-L283, some stuff are happening between 2400 and 1900BC ... It is hard to say which culture(s) was involved in this diffusion stage. Then a lot of stuff happened around 1200BC in location matching Urnfielders.
    Some stuff also happened in Southern Europe around 1800-1700BC for one clade (J-Y15058), I don't have a well defined opinion about what event/culture are concerned.


    Albanian flaged (YFull) subclades of J-L283:

    --> J-Z622 > J-YP91 > J-YP61 > J-YP29 > J-YP181 > J-FT196148 :
    ??? Too few samples, maybe some Iron-Age population movements or anything later.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Y146400 > J-FGC64043 > J-FT29034 :
    ??? Too few samples, could be related to anything from 900BC to modern time.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Y15058 > J-Z40052 > J-Z40054 :
    ??? Rare clade, arrived sometime after 1800BC.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Y15058 > J-Z38240 > J-Z38241 > J-PH1602 > J-PH502 > J-Y40288 :
    Maybe related to Urnfield expansion around 1100BC, entry in Albania could date from later times and be related to population movement between 1100BC and 500AD.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Y21045 > J-PH4679 :
    Early expansion in Albania around 1800BC or Urnfield expansion around 1200BC. Hard to follow between 1800BC and 1200BC. Intense diffusion of J-PH1751 subclade (around 750AD, maybe someone with a good knowledge of Albania history can identify which could be the related event). It is probably the most secure Haplogroup for an old presence in Albania (entrance in 1200BC or before)

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Y27522 > J-Y23094 > J-Y182183 > J-Y36202 > J-Y80036 > J-Y226157 > J-Y182854 :
    Likely linked to Urnfield expansion. Arrived around Albania between 1000BC and 1450AD.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Y27522 > J-Y23094 > J-Y86181 :
    Possibly arrived with an Urnfield movement of population, established in Albania or very nearby prior 900BC.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-Y21878 > J-FT29003 :
    Rare subclade, MRCA in 1450AD. Arrived between 1700BC and 1450AD.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-Y21878 > J-CTS11100 > J-Y166564 > J-FT125046 :
    Likely related to Urnfield expansion. Exact date of entrance in Albania somewhere between 1300BC and 600AD. Hard to tell if presence in Albania pre-date or post-date Roman times.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-8421 > J-Z631 > J-Y155546 :
    Likely Celtic expansion or movements inside Roman Empire

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-8421 > J-Z631 > J-Y144394 :
    Likely Celtic expansion or movements inside Roman Empire

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-8421 > J-Z631 > J-Z1043 :
    Isolated sample, arrived there after 800BC, may be related to Celtic, Roman or something else.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-8421 > J-Z631 > J-Z1043 > J-Z8424 > J-Z8429 :
    Likely Celtic expansion or movements inside Roman Empire.


    As a conclusion, "safe" old clades are J-PH4679 (at worst 1200BC) and J-Y86181 (at worst 900BC). Other clades are less clear, even those with a diffusion that seems to correlate with Urnfield expansion. This expansion was touching many territories, and therefore, for isolated clades, it is not out of the pictures that they were injected by later population movements, as we see diffusion dynamic sometimes yields to large ranges for entrance time encompassing Celtic and Roman times.
    Plus, J-PH1751 (subclade of J-PH4679) experienced a big diffusion circa 750AD, which may be related to some historical event in Albania.

  12. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Mate, Montenegro is not even 10% of the territory you are showing.
    There was no borders at the time, in the last 3300 years people could have spread their seed how they pleased.
    Taulanti "wiped out"? You have issues mate.

    The problem is that half the claims you make are disproved by your own sources, the other half could not possible even have a source, that's how nonsensical they are.

    I try to get the motivation for your posts, across different accounts in the last years in different fora. But you flip flop so much that it makes no sense.
    Sometimes I think some Albanian stole your lunch money in grade school, and that keeps you going to this day.

    The problem with you and many others is in thinking AD tribes were in the same place/area in BC times.............that facts are the romans moved tribes around their empire and then the barbarian invasion of the roman empire further displaced the origin of tribes .............so BC and AD tribes should not be aligned

    here they call Taulanti as
    Peoples who once lived in Asia Minor and who belonged to the Phrygian race, such as the Phrygians or Bryges among the Taulanti, the Paeones who called themselves Teucrian colonies,

    macedonia invaded albania in 317/316BC first taking butrint in the south and apollonia and later Durres .................they held it until the romans took it from the macedonians at the start of the hannibal war, as macedonia was allied with Hannibal

  13. #813
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    .
    Plus, J-PH1751 (subclade of J-PH4679) experienced a big diffusion circa 750AD, which may be related to some historical event in Albania.
    Result of the Slavic invasion in the Balkans perhaps?

  14. #814
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    Hi Archetype0ne,



    I will try for clades with YFULL Albanian "flag".
    First, I really want to precise that this approach to track haplogroup make sense only when there is an "expansion" of the population.
    Basically, between two demographic "booms" we are blind. Thus, for specific entrance in Albania sometimes the time-range will be wide.

    I consider that the likely place the origin of J-L283 in 3500BC is around the Black Sea in the Roumania/Ukrainia/Moldova sector (nearby the rumored Eneolithic Moldovan sample). After, I think it migrated toward Central Europe/North Balkan where it started most of its expansion (post J-Z597 stage after 2500BC).
    The clades will be analyzed in such context ("Out of Central Europe" model).

    Overall, for J-L283, some stuff are happening between 2400 and 1900BC ... It is hard to say which culture(s) was involved in this diffusion stage. Then a lot of stuff happened around 1200BC in location matching Urnfielders.
    Some stuff also happened in Southern Europe around 1800-1700BC for one clade (J-Y15058), I don't have a well defined opinion about what event/culture are concerned.


    Albanian flaged (YFull) subclades of J-L283:

    --> J-Z622 > J-YP91 > J-YP61 > J-YP29 > J-YP181 > J-FT196148 :
    ??? Too few samples, maybe some Iron-Age population movements or anything later.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Y146400 > J-FGC64043 > J-FT29034 :
    ??? Too few samples, could be related to anything from 900BC to modern time.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Y15058 > J-Z40052 > J-Z40054 :
    ??? Rare clade, arrived sometime after 1800BC.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Y15058 > J-Z38240 > J-Z38241 > J-PH1602 > J-PH502 > J-Y40288 :
    Maybe related to Urnfield expansion around 1100BC, entry in Albania could date from later times and be related to population movement between 1100BC and 500AD.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Y21045 > J-PH4679 :
    Early expansion in Albania around 1800BC or Urnfield expansion around 1200BC. Hard to follow between 1800BC and 1200BC. Intense diffusion of J-PH1751 subclade (around 750AD, maybe someone with a good knowledge of Albania history can identify which could be the related event). It is probably the most secure Haplogroup for an old presence in Albania (entrance in 1200BC or before)

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Y27522 > J-Y23094 > J-Y182183 > J-Y36202 > J-Y80036 > J-Y226157 > J-Y182854 :
    Likely linked to Urnfield expansion. Arrived around Albania between 1000BC and 1450AD.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Y27522 > J-Y23094 > J-Y86181 :
    Possibly arrived with an Urnfield movement of population, established in Albania or very nearby prior 900BC.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-Y21878 > J-FT29003 :
    Rare subclade, MRCA in 1450AD. Arrived between 1700BC and 1450AD.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-Y21878 > J-CTS11100 > J-Y166564 > J-FT125046 :
    Likely related to Urnfield expansion. Exact date of entrance in Albania somewhere between 1300BC and 600AD. Hard to tell if presence in Albania pre-date or post-date Roman times.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-8421 > J-Z631 > J-Y155546 :
    Likely Celtic expansion or movements inside Roman Empire

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-8421 > J-Z631 > J-Y144394 :
    Likely Celtic expansion or movements inside Roman Empire

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-8421 > J-Z631 > J-Z1043 :
    Isolated sample, arrived there after 800BC, may be related to Celtic, Roman or something else.

    --> J-Z622 > J-Z600 > J-Z2509 > J-Z585 > J-Z615 > J-Z597 > J-Z2507 > J-Z638 > J-Z1297 > J-Z2195 > J-8421 > J-Z631 > J-Z1043 > J-Z8424 > J-Z8429 :
    Likely Celtic expansion or movements inside Roman Empire.


    As a conclusion, "safe" old clades are J-PH4679 (at worst 1200BC) and J-Y86181 (at worst 900BC). Other clades are less clear, even those with a diffusion that seems to correlate with Urnfield expansion. This expansion was touching many territories, and therefore, for isolated clades, it is not out of the pictures that they were injected by later population movements, as we see diffusion dynamic sometimes yields to large ranges for entrance time encompassing Celtic and Roman times.
    Plus, J-PH1751 (subclade of J-PH4679) experienced a big diffusion circa 750AD, which may be related to some historical event in Albania.
    Thanks! Neat breakdown.

    As you can see, there is quite some variety/ diversification of L283 in Albania today. Sure some of them might be post 3000ybp, but to have that much variety of clades in such a small geographic area I suspect this to be related to some pre historic event.

    As you earlier said in some comment, early diffusion in conjunction with TMRCA can offer clue. And in my opinion these clues point to L283 in one clade or another being in the territory of the southern Balkans/Albania at least by MBA.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 25-11-21 at 05:01. Reason: changed bc to ybp

  15. #815
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Hi,

    As you earlier said in some comment, early diffusion in conjunction with TMRCA can offer clue. And in my opinion these clues point to L283 in one clade or another being in the territory of the southern Balkans/Albania at least by MBA.
    If I read well, you are FT29003, so for you J-Y21878 early entrance with Urnfielders is not out of the picture. At least presence of FT29003 and Y166564 can point in that direction. It isn't the clearest case, but arrival around ~1200BC make sense in this case.
    Last edited by Ghurier; 25-11-21 at 12:26.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    Hi,

    If I read well, you are FT29003, so for you J-Y21878 early entrance with Urnfielders is not out of the picture. At least presence of FT29003 and Y166564 can point in that direction. It isn't the clearest case, but arrival around ~1200BC make sense in this case.
    I think the main spread of J-L283 happened with the Tumulus culture (Middle Danubian), but some of these turned into Urnfield cultural formations later, while other TC groups sticked to inhumation in tumuli, of which some were initially pushed South. These movements meant hat not every expansion and spread in the time of Urnfield was actual Urnfield culture bearers, but sometimes just caused by those, if other groups tried to evade their pressure.
    Whether or not there was a shift in haplogroups with the spread of Urnfield along the Western Middle Danubian groups is uncertain. To the East its almost for sure, since I would associate the South Eastern Urnfield group/Channelled Ware primarily with E-V13. I also think that J-L283 was present in the Middle Danubian Urnfield groups, but that needs to be investigated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Illyri proprie dicti was a term to indicate illyrian tribes in modern Montenegro ...............most of the tribes are Montenegro except the Taulanti who are in Albania ......but we know that the Taulanti where wiped out by the invading macedonians in 314BC
    There is still questions if the Taulanti where originally Dardanians ...one of the 3 major tribes.

    of the other tribes most are coming south from ancient southern Pannonia which is part of modern Bosnia

    PLERAEI
    Eth. PLERAEI (Eth. Πληραῖοι), a people of Illyricum, who lived upon the banks of the Naro, according to Strabo (vii. p.315, seq.),

    naro is the Neretva was known as Narenta, Narona and Naro

    .................................................. ..............

    Sasaei

    Sasaei was the name of an Illyrian tribe that became part of the Docleatae.[35]

    .................................................. .................

    Endirudini

    Endirudini or Interphrourinoi (Ancient Greek: Ἰντερφρουρῖνοι)[60] was the name of an Illyrian tribe that became part of the Docleatae.[35]

    .................................................. ................

    Grabaei
    Main article: Grabaei

    The Grabaei or Kambaioi (Ancient Greek: Καμβαῖοι)[60] were a minor Illyrian group that lived around Lake Scutari.[61]

    .................................................. ..................

    Labeates
    Main article: Labeatae

    The Labeates or Labeatae (Ancient Greek: Λαβεᾶται) were an Illyrian tribe that lived (after being defeated by Parmenio) around Scodra.[62]

    .................................................. .................

    all above are under the

    Docleatae
    The Docleatae
    (Ancient Greek: Δοκλεᾶται, romanized: Dokleatai) were an Illyrian tribe that lived in what is now Montenegro. Their capital was Doclea[57] (or Dioclea), and they are called after the town. They had settled west of the Morača river, up to Montenegro's present-day borders with Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Docleatae were prominent for their cheese, which was exported to various Roman provinces within the Roman Empire.[58] They were composed of parts of the Taulantii, the Pleraei or Pyraei, Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, Labeatae[35] that came together after the Great Illyrian revolt. The Docleatae had 33 decuriae.

  18. #818
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    Hi,

    Just to comeback on the "sampling" issue. Here is a "hit"-map build from people participating to FTDNA groups (I used the major haplogroups to compute it). This map is basically the product of population density and the probability of being in FTDNA group depending on the location.
    Colorscale range from dark-blue to red (white means 0 kit) and scale with the number of kit.

    Attachment 13033

    As some people precised already, it is not west-europe that is over-sampled, it is UK & south-west Germany. France and Spain are in fact very undersampled !
    In France this is logical, because technically DNA personal tests are illegal (still, to my knowledge, no one never got a fine for such thing ...)

    PS: I didn't displayed country borders because I'm lazy ... but there is sufficient coverage to recognize the coasts.
    Last edited by Ghurier; 26-11-21 at 20:30.

  19. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghurier View Post
    Hi,

    Just to comeback on the "sampling" issue. Here is a "hit"-map build from people participating to FTDNA groups (I used the major haplogroups to compute it). This map is basically the product of population density and the probability of being in FTDNA group depending on the location.
    Colorscale range from dark-blue to red (white means 0 kit) and scale with the number of kit.

    Attachment 13033

    As some people precised already, it is not west-europe that is over-sampled, it is UK & south-west Germany. France and Spain are in fact very undersampled !
    In France this is logical, because technically DNA personal tests are illegal (still, to my knowledge, no one never got a fine for such thing ...)

    PS: I didn't displayed country borders because I'm lazy ... but there is sufficient coverage to recognize the coasts.
    I can not open the image for some reason. Could you please use imgur, upload it there and link it here so we all can see?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I can not open the image for some reason. Could you please use imgur, upload it there and link it here so we all can see?
    Should work now.

    PS: I like how Iceland is just covered by few dots
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    France, Bavaria, Austria and Romania vs. UK, Ireland, Benelux and South Western Germany is particularly striking. Also Northern (low) vs. Southern Italy.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Smoothed version:



    A map including J2-L283s (orange + red dots) from the same dataset (I added the country border this time) :



    PS: date BP in parenthesis gives the TMRCA according to YFULL.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Hi,

    To elaborate a bit on the difference between number count of haplogroup carriers, percentage of carrier, and diverity of carrier, find below 15 maps.
    From left to right : Number count, density, and disersity of haplogroup carriers.
    From top to bottom : J-Z1043, J-Z631, J-Z597, J-Z585, and J-L283.

    The data I use here are from FTDNA J2-group, it is a very small dataset, and therefore statistical noise is important.



    On top of that, by construction diversity is still biased toward oversampled regions (because in oversampled regions you are more likely to find many subclades that in severely undersampled regions). Such bias disapear once all region reach a sufficient sampling but ar still present in this case.
    Consequently, I won't believe too much the diversity cluster in UK for J-Z631.
    I used 50 years time range to compute the diversity (meaning each child line with a formation time that is less than 50 years after the concerned haplogroup have a total weight of 1 on the map), except for J-Z597 where I used 500, to include diffusion stages from 2400BC to 1900BC. Therefore, considering the wide time range the South German and Illyrian diversity clusters might represent something real.

    Globally, we see that diversity is very efficient to clean founder effects (see how the Russian cluster disappear for diversity in all maps). And even if partially biased toward oversampled regions, it is less biased than raw number count.

    For reference, I just give below the "coverage" map (with the same smoothing and display style), this is a number count map of the peoples in FTDNA groups (considering all major haplogroups). Note that the south-western germany oversampled region is not visible due to the intense smoothing I applied (to compensate from the small-statistic situation we are with this dataset).



  24. #824
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    Well done bro!
    Fantastic exercise in data science.

    From what I can gather there might have been two routes with three movements into Europe.
    1)Two through the southern mouth of the Carpathians
    a)one through the Danube and then through estuaries into the Rhine, while the other
    b)into Southern Balkans, and
    2)one over the northern range of the Carpathians straight into central Europe.

    Say first two rows from the images you posted could be 2), while bottom three rose (a) and/or (b).

    But I suspect there was overlap between these three scenarios which could have been not haplogroup (mutually) exclusive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Illyrians, Daco-Thracians, Greeks most likely, but could also be from other people. The frequencies seem to be so low, many might be just individual migrants with subsequent founder effects, similar to Chinese samples of the same kind, most likely from Iranian speakers via Thraco-Scythian steppe backflow.
    Daco thracian source not possible, as roman conquests went in this order - illyria + greece, tunisia, THEN thrace

    The r1b z2103 and v13 in tunisia cannot be from thrace
    Extent_of_the_Roman_Republic_and_the_Roman_Empire_between_218_BC_and_117_AD.jpg
    Last edited by TaktikatEMalet; 01-12-21 at 00:22.

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