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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #51
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: Albania



    Thread needs serious cleaning for all of page 2.

  2. #52
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    4 out of 6 members found this post helpful.
    Illyrians:




    I2a-Slav was somewhere in Ukraine-Belarus area.

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    100% North-western European here, but my haplogroup is J2b2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daggo View Post
    100% North-western European here, but my haplogroup is J2b2
    So what? People move around you know.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    So what? People move around you know.
    OP wanted to know if any non-Albanians/Balkanites were J2b2...so I included my ancestry, which is basically all from the North Sea coast. It's my understanding that J2b2 is pretty rare outside S-E Europe.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daggo View Post
    OP wanted to know if any non-Albanians/Balkanites were J2b2...so I included my ancestry, which is basically all from the North Sea coast. It's my understanding that J2b2 is pretty rare outside S-E Europe.
    Best regards, there is J2b2 reported in plenty of places outside Balkan. Also J2b2 is wide spread and Albanians fall under J2-L283 line.Since you stated your ancestry is from North Sea they could easily be also somewhere under L283.What is your terminal snp and where have you tested? With at least 37 STRs markers tested you can know how far you are from Albanians and who might be your closest relatives thru direct paternal line. This is map of J2b, J2b1 and J2b2 combined so it kinda gives you Idea, where most numerous i believe should be j2b2 EDIT: i cant post links but go under J2 in Eupedia and look for last map (Distribution of haplogroup J2b (M102) in Europe, the Middle East & North Africa).

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    Hi everyone, I have been reading the posts staring the first thread and I noticed that a possible connection was postulated between Albanians and Myceaneans through J2b2. Given that recently we have evidence that Myceneans were quite similar to Minoans and we only found Myceneans carrying haplogroup J2a. Does someone think that J2b2 may have entered Greece through a later invasion like the Dorians? In that case Dorians would have been more Balkanic than the Myceneans.

    Also, I am rather puzzled because of the fact that Gheghs pretty much lack haplogroup J2b1. Since the latter haplogroup seems to be quite old, I wonder how Ghegh Albanians don't have it. I would definitely expect Illyrians to carry this haplogroup as well.


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    BTW interesting thread, i agree that Albanians should be more associated to this group on Eupedia because its obviously dominates at them with percentages.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    nvm,,, text edit out
    Last edited by Dema; 23-10-17 at 12:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Hi everyone, I have been reading the posts staring the first thread and I noticed that a possible connection was postulated between Albanians and Myceaneans through J2b2. Given that recently we have evidence that Myceneans were quite similar to Minoans and we only found Myceneans carrying haplogroup J2a. Does someone think that J2b2 may have entered Greece through a later invasion like the Dorians? In that case Dorians would have been more Balkanic than the Myceneans.
    Also, I am rather puzzled because of the fact that Gheghs pretty much lack haplogroup J2b1. Since the latter haplogroup seems to be quite old, I wonder how Ghegh Albanians don't have it. I would definitely expect Illyrians to carry this haplogroup as well.
    Recently while studying Strabo and other Roman historians ..........I begin to see that the only people the Dorians and myceneans can be associated with are the Thracians, I suspect these 2 along with Dacians and getae are sub branches of thracian.
    .
    Strabo states the illyrians are from the eastern alps circa 1300BC and following that, the hungarian scholar in his book Noricum further states that the Dalmatians migrated to the coast of the Adriatic sea around 500-600BC from modern austria/slovenia.
    .
    On your map the serbian area has always been associated with 2 thracian tribes from history, the Triballi and the Moesians.
    .
    I am currently stuidying the 2 Dardanian ( kosovo ) tribes, one being the Galabrii which , so far, I found moved to northern Albania are where renamed Taulantii.
    .
    The ancient greek Historian Herodotus has always stated that the Thracians are the biggest population in the world after the Indians
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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    Sile:When's your book coming out? Galabri became Taulanti? Please provide a source. Galabri could have become Calabri and Apuli in Dacia became Apuli in South Italy could make sense, but the Taulanti theory is new to me. The Triballi were also considered as Illyrian from the mythological genealogy, where Triballus was the son of Illyrus if I'm not mistaken. These are all useless speculation, but since the topic focuses on it we can opt for a dual proto-thracian and proto-illyrian origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticazzi View Post
    Sile:When's your book coming out? Galabri became Taulanti? Please provide a source. Galabri could have become Calabri and Apuli in Dacia became Apuli in South Italy could make sense, but the Taulanti theory is new to me. The Triballi were also considered as Illyrian from the mythological genealogy, where Triballus was the son of Illyrus if I'm not mistaken. These are all useless speculation, but since the topic focuses on it we can opt for a dual proto-thracian and proto-illyrian origin.
    I never seen the triballi as associated with illyrian .........I see
    Triballi, a Thracian people whose earliest known home was the “Triballian plain” (probably the Plain of Kosovo), near the junction of the Angrus and Brongus rivers (the western and southern Morava) in the north-central Balkans. Sometime after 424 bc they were overcome by the Autariatae from the north. Later The Triballi fought off the Macedonians of Phillip II from the south
    Galabrii as noted by historian William Forester.......the name galabrii is unknown , but should be changed to taulantii as Galabrus was the king of the Taulantii in northern Albania

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Hi everyone, I have been reading the posts staring the first thread and I noticed that a possible connection was postulated between Albanians and Myceaneans through J2b2. Given that recently we have evidence that Myceneans were quite similar to Minoans and we only found Myceneans carrying haplogroup J2a. Does someone think that J2b2 may have entered Greece through a later invasion like the Dorians? In that case Dorians would have been more Balkanic than the Myceneans.
    Also, I am rather puzzled because of the fact that Gheghs pretty much lack haplogroup J2b1. Since the latter haplogroup seems to be quite old, I wonder how Ghegh Albanians don't have it. I would definitely expect Illyrians to carry this haplogroup as well.
    You may read my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 here and here, which was written before we had the Mycenaean ancient DNA. My analysis pointing that current Greek J2b2-L283 subclades are unlikely to be present among Mycenaeans, and are as a result of later migrations from further North (Dorians, Illyrians Thracians, and later Vlachs and Albanians), stands.

    Regarding J2b1-M205, as Dema pointed out, in the mainland Balkans (outside of the the Mediterranean), all of it seems to fall under J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066 and has a TMRCA of only ca. 900-1500 years, which suggests it was likely not present there before the common era, hence the reason why (Gheg) Albanians are almost completely lacking it. Unfortunately, many people don't understand haplogroup J2b quite well, so they assume they are part of the same migration. True, J2b1-M205 has a TMRCA of ca. 6000 years, but in ancient DNA is consistently being found in the Levant area. It's distribution is actually quite reminiscent of some branches of haplogroup J2a.
    So far the only J2b that has "deep roots" (high TMRCA) in Europe, and found in ancient DNA from the Bronze Age or before (in Croatia) is J2b2-L283, which as we know reaches maximum frequency among (Gheg) Albanians, while being quite low everywhere else, albeit with some representation among Vlachs and Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I never seen the triballi as associated with illyrian .........I see
    Triballi, a Thracian people whose earliest known home was the “Triballian plain” (probably the Plain of Kosovo), near the junction of the Angrus and Brongus rivers (the western and southern Morava) in the north-central Balkans. Sometime after 424 bc they were overcome by the Autariatae from the north. Later The Triballi fought off the Macedonians of Phillip II from the south
    Galabrii as noted by historian William Forester.......the name galabrii is unknown , but should be changed to taulantii as Galabrus was the king of the Taulantii in northern Albania

    Sile is not Calambri but Gambrili, I know you know it,

    calambri fits with Poltobri mesebri etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    You may read my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 here and here, which was written before we had the Mycenaean ancient DNA. My analysis pointing that J2b2-L283 is unlikely to be present among Mycenaeans, and is as a result of later migrations from further North (Dorians, Illyrians, and later Vlachs and Albanians), seems to stand.

    Regarding J2b1-M205, as Dema pointed out, in the mainland Balkans (outside of the the Mediterranean), all of it seems to fall under J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066 and has a TMRCA of only ca. 900-1200 years, which suggests it was likely not present there before the common era, hence the reason why (Gheg) Albanians are almost completely lacking it. Unfortunately, many people don't understand haplogroup J2b quite well, so they assume they are part of the same migration. True, J2b1-M205 has a TMRCA of ca. 6000 years, but in ancient DNA is consistently being found in the Levant area. So far the only J2b that has "deep roots" (high TMRCA) in Europe, and found in ancient DNA from the Bronze Age (Croatia) is J2b2-L283.
    I hope, by that, you do not mean that drop from the sky

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Sile is not Calambri but Gambrili, I know you know it,
    calambri fits with Poltobri mesebri etc
    I do not know what you mean
    .
    strabo says .........."To the Dardaniatae belong also the Galabrii, among whom is an ancient city, and the Thunatae"
    these are the 2 tribes
    ...
    I now believe that there was only 2 main ethnic people of the balkans in ancient times of the later bronze-age and early iron-age ..........they are Greeks and Thracians

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    1 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Recently while studying Strabo and other Roman historians ..........I begin to see that the only people the Dorians and myceneans can be associated with are the Thracians, I suspect these 2 along with Dacians and getae are sub branches of thracian.
    .
    Strabo states the illyrians are from the eastern alps circa 1300BC and following that, the hungarian scholar in his book Noricum further states that the Dalmatians migrated to the coast of the Adriatic sea around 500-600BC from modern austria/slovenia.
    .
    J2b2 was presented in Thracians what today's researchers in recent scientific paper called Albanian-Bulgarian cluster because same subclades in Bulgaria and Albania.

    But what is interesting it seems after arrived warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia (via Bosphorus) in Pannonia 2000 BC after mix with locals we can speak about Proto-Illyrians and known direction toward Austria and after that other western and southwesten directions there were directions toward East too (before mix with locals or after it is impossible to determine in this moment).

    This means Dacians, especially Free Dacians, Carpi and maybe Costoboces had haplogroup J2b2. We cannot be sure without samples from Carpi (and Costoboces) epochs in their historical homelands because Carpi (and Costoboces) almost extinct in their homeland (historical regions Moldova, Bucovina, Maramures and surrounding, Carpathian). But everywhere where Carpi moved (South and Western Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.) we can find J2b2. In recent study in one small province in Hungary in furthermost North-Western (Carpathian area) found one J2b2 who belongs Bulgarian-Albanian cluster.

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    Garrick - there is a J2b in dalmatia from 1700 bc. That is the only data point we have from ancient times. Every theory has to pass through that point. Dalmatia is not Thracian territory.
    Ancient thracian dna has been found, and J2b was not among them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    J2b2 was presented in Thracians what today's researchers in recent scientific paper called Albanian-Bulgarian cluster because same subclades in Bulgaria and Albania.
    But what is interesting it seems after arrived warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia (via Bosphorus) in Pannonia 2000 BC after mix with locals we can speak about Proto-Illyrians and known direction toward Austria and after that other western and southwesten directions there were directions toward East too (before mix with locals or after it is impossible to determine in this moment).
    This means Dacians, especially Free Dacians, Carpi and maybe Costoboces had haplogroup J2b2. We cannot be sure without samples from Carpi (and Costoboces) epochs in their historical homelands because Carpi (and Costoboces) extinct in their homeland (present day Moldova province in Romania and surrounding). But everywhere where Carpi moved (South and Western Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.) we can find J2b2. In recent study in one small province in Hungary found one J2b2 who belongs Bulgarian-Albanian cluster.
    Why are you wasting our time with nonsense like this. J2b2-L283 has not been found in an ancient DNA context in Thrace territory to date. So this is a disinformation. Instead, it has been found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Illyrian territory).

    You claim all/same "subclades" found in Albania are also found in Bulgaria, which is not true. Then you claim there is this hypothetical "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster. I know there is no such cluster either, so another disinformation.

    What you don't realize or mention is that one Albanian J2b2 cluster is showing a TMRCA of 2400 ybp between two Albanian BigY's (Illyrian times) and no Bulgarian is in it:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/

    So multiple lies in one post by Garrick the Serb, or should I call it disinformation...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    Garrick - there is a J2b in dalmatia from 1700 bc. That is the only data point we have from ancient times. Every theory has to pass through that point. Dalmatia is not Thracian territory.
    Ancient thracian dna has been found, and J2b was not among them.

    Sent from my SM-G903F using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    J2b2 sample from Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia was Bulgarian, Dacian (free Dacian?). No Illyrian, Illyrian Bosphorus, Anatolia. Albanian from Bulgaria 2000BC, now scientist from Serbia confirmed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Why are you wasting our time with nonsense like this. J2b2-L283 has not been found in an ancient DNA context in Thrace territory to date. So this is a lie from you. Instead it has been found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Illyrian territory).
    You claim that that all "subclades" found in Albania are also found in Bulgaria, which is not true. Then you claim there is this hypothetical "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster. And I know there is no such cluster either, so another lie.
    What you don't realize or mention is that one Albanian J2b2 cluster is showing a TMRCA of 2400 ybp between two Albanian BigY's (Illyrian times) and no Bulgarian is in it:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/
    So multiple lies in one post by Garrick the Serb!!!
    current recent findings state that the dalmatians arrived on the adriatic coast between 500-600BC

    and that they lived originally further north
    the only population which could have been on that adriatic coast prior to 500-600BC was the thracians ............the Dorians where long gone

    ....
    BTW.....your dates should read 450BC and the other 800AD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    J2b2 sample from Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia was Bulgarian, Dacian (free Dacian?). No Illyrian, Illyrian Bosphorus, Anatolia. Albanian from Bulgaria 2000BC, now scientist from Serbia confirmed.
    I am not sure if you did quote tge wrong post or just misunderstood me?

    I am saying that the only ancient J2b we have is located in dalmatia at 1700bc. That place coincides with illyrian lands (not thracian). The timing (1700bc) is slightly before illyrian period. Therefore, Maciamo correctly writes that this sample is a clear indication that J2b might be related to proto-illyrian.
    Two points are important: an indication is not definitive proof - few more samples are required to proof it beyond any doubt. The other point regards the possibility of a comun proto father for both illyrians and thracians (linguistics has indications of some connections). So if some ancient J2b are also found in the future in thracian territory than we will have proof of the illyrian-thracian connection - clearly this is just one possibility for now, and not supported by ancient dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    J2b2 was presented in Thracians what today's researchers in recent scientific paper called Albanian-Bulgarian cluster because same subclades in Bulgaria and Albania.

    But what is interesting it seems after arrived warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia (via Bosphorus) in Pannonia 2000 BC after mix with locals we can speak about Proto-Illyrians and known direction toward Austria and after that other western and southwesten directions there were directions toward East too (before mix with locals or after it is impossible to determine in this moment).

    This means Dacians, especially Free Dacians, Carpi and maybe Costoboces had haplogroup J2b2. We cannot be sure without samples from Carpi (and Costoboces) epochs in their historical homelands because Carpi (and Costoboces) almost extinct in their homeland (historical regions Moldova, Bucovina, Maramures and surrounding, Carpathian). But everywhere where Carpi moved (South and Western Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.) we can find J2b2. In recent study in one small province in Hungary in furthermost North-Western (Carpathian area) found one J2b2 who belongs Bulgarian-Albanian cluster.
    The thracians are far too numerous in the balkans .............I would like to find out if the Dorians where a sub-branch of the Thracians. it would then mean that ancient greek and ancient thracian linguistically can be aligned and as we know now illyrian and greek is not aligned.

    Illyrian is most likely a sub- east celtic dialect similar to pannonia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    I am not sure if you did quote tge wrong post or just misunderstood me?
    I am saying that the only ancient J2b we have is located in dalmatia at 1700bc. That place coincides with illyrian lands (not thracian). The timing (1700bc) is slightly before illyrian period. Therefore, Maciamo correctly writes that this sample is a clear indication that J2b might be related to proto-illyrian.
    Two points are important: an indication is not definitive proof - few more samples are required to proof it beyond any doubt. The other point regards the possibility of a comun proto father for both illyrians and thracians (linguistics has indications of some connections). So if some ancient J2b are also found in the future in thracian territory than we will have proof of the illyrian-thracian connection - clearly this is just one possibility for now, and not supported by ancient dna.
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    He is being sarcastic.

    I think it would be better if you add L283 to J2b ;)
    It's like saying E1b, but not specifying which branch we mean when we talk about E1b-V13.

    Otherwise, what you said makes sense. I think it's quite possible J2b2-L283 will be found in Thracian remains as well, given its high TMRCA in the Balkans which dates well into the Bronze Age. Currently however, we have no evidence of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    Garrick - there is a J2b in dalmatia from 1700 bc. That is the only data point we have from ancient times. Every theory has to pass through that point. Dalmatia is not Thracian territory.
    Ancient thracian dna has been found, and J2b was not among them.

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    Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.

    But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).

    In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).

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