J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Fustan]

On his Twitter page he claims that J2b-L283 are Sumerians.

Lmao, does he really?

Don’t waste your time with him or any other mentally ill person.

Trust me I ignored his posts, vettors, and Riverman for ages now. I just read what people respond to them to get even more insights.

I think the forthcoming paper about Thracian finds will bring a lot of light into the ''dark’’ regarding E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 and the modern autosomal DNA of Albanians.

But that is not what this thread is for.

I didn't know there was a Thracian paper coming out, do we have an ETA on when it will be released?
And yeah, a lot of non J2-L283 discussion here. Sometimes I think it's fine though, since the frequencies of J2-L283, R1b and EV13 show that they're all connected in some way.

[Hawk]

What a pathetic lie and deceit attempt.

First and foremost Riverman has never ever written about J2b2-L283, in only one occasion he mentioned was that J2b2-L283 entered the Tumulus-grave network in MBA somewhere in Pannonia and benefited for it, he has never written about Sardinian theory something which Aspurg has done. If not, Riverman is one of the most knowledgeable persons in anthroforas as far as anthropology/archeology comes. He might be a bit biased on sole Daco-Thracian origin of E-V13 and all spread due to them, but then again he might very well be right, we don't know yet.

As for Derite, i seriously doubt he thinks or he promoted J2b2-L283 descends from Sumerians. That's horseshit attempt.

Not going to mention how E-V13 is an uniform and in stronger presence among Albos than J2b2-L283 in every single damn academic paper lol.

[Johane Derite]

What a pathetic lie and deceit attempt.

First and foremost Riverman has never ever written about J2b2-L283, in only one occasion he mentioned was that J2b2-L283 entered the Tumulus-grave network in MBA somewhere in Pannonia and benefited for it, he has never written about Sardinian theory something which Aspurg has done. If not, Riverman is one of the most knowledgeable persons in anthroforas as far as anthropology/archeology comes.

As for Derite, i seriously doubt he thinks or he promoted J2b2-L283 descends from Sumerians. That's horseshit attempt.

Obviously I don't. I made a post for the general public who doesn't know anything about haplogroups, etc, indo european migrations etc.

The point was to get them thinking about separate paths into Europe, etc.

I wrote:

"~7,000 years ago, the ancestors of the 3 main Albanian paternal groups had not yet met, they were in 3 different places.

E-V13's ancestor was living in the Cardium Culture


R1b's ancestor lived in Proto-Yamnaya


J2b-L283 lived in the territories of the Sumerian Civilization."

I was careful to say "lived in the territories" i.e. not necessarily were Sumerian.

I should have just written Iran or Zagros mountains or something.

Also this was 2 years ago. I don't think L283 were Sumerians, probably some sort of Zagros mountain people.

These people accusing me of "lying" are resorting to some absurd lies. I share every post and source with page number and everything, exactly so that everybody can find and locate to check it themselves. What can you do.

[Hawk]

Yeah, that's ambigious (open to more than one interpretation) but then again you mentioned the territory not the actual people, but he takes the one interpretation which can downplay you lol.

But, reading some of your posts, i was sure you didn't hold such an opinion.

In my personal opinion, in his 2018 paper Lippert mentioned core EBA/MBA continiuation(J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103 "he doesn't mention haplogroups rather just archeological perspective, this is my assumption") with some strong Danubian Urnfield(E-V13) influence on Illyrians during LBA to EIA, and i was leaning toward that option for E-V13, but now Lippert favors the Albanian and Yugoslav archaeologists on an EBA/MBA continuum. But then again this so called Pannonian influence according to Prendi reached more Albania, and more South-Central Albania, so if E-V13 ever was present this is the option. But we cannot know for sure, only aDNA can resolve it.

[mount123]

The most important Illyrian regions is completely untested. I'm sure when we get more samples from Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo, we will find plenty of Illyrian E-V13 and R1b-2705.
Even then we have E-V13 Balkan samples not necessarily labeled as Illyrian whose autosomal profile are almost identical to the Illyrian J2-L283 samples, like the E-V13 from Sopron in Hungary (region that has historically been said to be connected to the Illyrians). Also, most of the J2-L283 Illyrian haplogroups that have been found isn't even related to the Albanian one, except for the recent one in the southernmost part of Croatia that came out in the recent paper. I don't see why Northern and Southern Illyrians wouldn't have different frequencies of different haplogroups, I don't expect Greek Cretans to have the same haplogroups as Greek Epirotes, or Sicilian Italians and Venetian Italians.
[/FONT][/COLOR]

Whether North Illyrian or South Illyrian <Z638 , in the context of Illyrian diversification and expansion in the Western Balkans, these subgroups are related to one another, under the umbrella of Illyrian ethnogenesis.


The fact that everything downstream J2b-Z638 is Illyrian is not up for debate, so I don't know what you're getting at with your statement.


J2b-Z638 is a South Illyrian paternal line from which most of us descend (there are some of us who descend from the few surviving North Illyrian subgroups too!), but the South Dalmatian sample was not South shifted autosomally.


I wouldn't equate modern population groups and their autosomal differences with an ancient population like our Illyrian ancestors. The southern shifted autosomal DNA of Albanians compared to Illyrians is immense and cannot have come out of the blue.


The J2b-L283 samples clearly form their own cluster!


The pathway of J2b-L283 in comparison to E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 is very much different.



As for that "derite" person he did indeed make those pseudo-scientific claims: /AlbHistory/status/1243889093945294849 since I still cannot post links add "twitter dot com".

[mount123]

Lmao, does he really?


Trust me I ignored his posts, vettors, and Riverman for ages now. I just read what people respond to them to get even more insights.



[COLOR=#000000][FONT=&amp]

I didn't know there was a Thracian paper coming out, do we have an ETA on when it will be released?
And yeah, a lot of non J2-L283 discussion here. Sometimes I think it's fine though, since the frequencies of J2-L283, R1b and EV13 show that they're all connected in some way.

I don't know when their release date is due just that they will come.




Ignoring them is the best way to go but I have to admit that sometimes I just can’t help it 😂

[Fustan]

Whether North Illyrian or South Illyrian <Z638 , in the context of Illyrian diversification and expansion in the Western Balkans, these subgroups are related to one another, under the umbrella of Illyrian ethnogenesis.


The fact that everything downstream J2b-Z638 is Illyrian is not up for debate, so I don't know what you're getting at with your statement.

Basically I wanted to articulate this point: among the Northern Illyrians it is J-Y15058 that is the most common clade by far, and this clade is not something most Albanians fall under. However, we have recently found the oldest J-Z638, and it's in fact the most Southern Balkan sample of all of the samples we have, and it's the one Albanians fall under. My speculation is that Z638 is the one that survived in the Southern Illyrians, and will be found much more frequently than Y15058 once we get more samples. Both clades overall fit under the Illyrian term without a doubt, but one will be found more in the North and the other in the South.

This is of course speculation on my part (on the distribution of the two clades) however they are 100% Illyrian both, that's not speculation.

I wouldn't equate modern population groups and their autosomal differences with an ancient population like our Illyrian ancestors.

I agree, I'm just using the modern populations of the world as an example of how Y-DNA frequencies differ from region to region, and I imagine it wouldn't have been much more different in the ancient times. Some Illyrian regions might have more J2-L283, some more E-V13, and so on. What I'm kind of touching at is that we do not really have much data on the mainland Illyrians or the southern ones. Most of the samples we have are from coastal Dalmatia. This is why people like Riverman are so obsessed with making E-V13 fit into his Daco-Thracian frankenstein speculation, despite most Illyrian regions being completely untested, and I'd argue in fact the most important regions are not tested at all, such as Mat-Glasinac.

As for that "derite"

person he did indeed make those pseudo-scientific claims: /AlbHistory/status/1243889093945294849 since I still cannot post links add "twitter dot com".

[mount123]

Basically I wanted to articulate this point: among the Northern Illyrians it is J-Y15058 that is the most common clade by far, and this clade is not something most Albanians fall under. However, we have recently found the oldest J-Z638, and it's in fact the most Southern Balkan sample of all of the samples we have, and it's the one Albanians fall under. My speculation is that Z638 is the one that survived in the Southern Illyrians, and will be found much more frequently than Y15058 once we get more samples. Both clades overall fit under the Illyrian term without a doubt, but one will be found more in the North and the other in the South.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[/FONT][/COLOR]
I agree, I'm just using the modern populations of the world as an example of how Y-DNA frequencies differ from region to region, and I imagine it wouldn't have been much more different in the ancient times. Some Illyrian regions might have more J2-L283, some more E-V13, and so on. What I'm kind of touching at is that we do not really have much data on the mainland Illyrians or the southern ones. Most of the samples we have are from coastal Dalmatia. This is why people like Riverman are so obsessed with making E-V13 fit into his Daco-Thracian frankenstein speculation, despite most Illyrian regions being completely untested, and I'd argue in fact the most important regions are not tested at all, such as Mat-Glasinac.

[COLOR=#000000]

E-V13 or R1b-Z2705 might be represented in some Illyrian groups after various mixings, but they do not form the core of Illyrian ethnogenesis.




Did you see that post? Maybe I got my golden blond hair and grey green eyes from the Sumerians 🤣 Still waiting for that tan though… bregdet vacation can be quite painful.

[Johane Derite]

I wonder if some of the major J2b-L283 branches in Albanians today might have originally belonged to the Latinised Illyrian people that lived around the Lake of Shkoder, Mat, Drin Valley, Fan Valley, Black Drin, along the Lezhe-Ulpiane and into Central Albania up to the Via egnatia.

These people are accepted as having lived from the 6th to the 9th centuries and fading out, possibly having been assimilated linguistically by the expanding proto-Albanian speakers. It is possible that they slowly left their Latin language and adopted the dominant language of the Proto-Albanians in the same way that many Vlachs/Aromanians of Albania have abandoned their language for Albanian in the last 100 years.

Maybe some branches of E-V13 also, but there is no other Albanian haplogroup candidate that stands out to explain possible ancestry from this group.

It explains the northern Gegë concentration of L283 quite well, and explains why there are latin toponyms even in very remote high places and heavy L283 places like in Mirdita, northern Albania, etc.

Some of the most notable scholars that refer to these Latin speaking Illyrians are Noel Malcolm, John Wilkes, Stadtmuller, etc. Matzinger in his latest book also writes:

""For Illyrian itself, which, according to the findings given here, cannot be continued in modern Albanian, it can finally be established with regard to its linguistic history that, like other local languages ​​in the Balkans, apart from Greek and the precursor of Albanian, it was gradually abandoned.


After the territorial integration of the Illyrian area under the Roman rulership structure, the speakers of Illyrian probably switched to Latin after a certain phase of bilingualism, as can also be observed in other areas of the ancient world, where in the course of Roman rule the change to Latin followed

(see for example Italy, where the local Italian languages ​​but also Etruscan were abandoned with the expansion of Rome, or Gaul, where the Celtic variety gave way to Latin; see here e.g. Budinszky 1881 and Adams 2004 )."

Pg 167 Die Illyrer

[Johane Derite]

If we see the distribution of Komani-Kruja culture findings and Latin Toponyms and Illyrian toponyms, there is an uncanny match with the distribution of L283.

[Aspurg]

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=&amp]I agree, I'm just using the modern populations of the world as an example of how Y-DNA frequencies differ from region to region, and I imagine it wouldn't have been much more different in the ancient times. Some Illyrian regions might have more J2-L283, some more E-V13, and so on. What I'm kind of touching at is that we do not really have much data on the mainland Illyrians or the southern ones. Most of the samples we have are from coastal Dalmatia. This is why people like Riverman are so obsessed with making E-V13 fit into his Daco-Thracian frankenstein speculation, despite most Illyrian regions being completely untested, and I'd argue in fact the most important regions are not tested at all, such as Mat-Glasinac.

Just get into your head that E-V13 has nothing to do with the Glasinac-Mat culture as evidenced by all ancient DNA and as predicted by me long ago because Glasinac-Mat is deeply connected to the MBA Posušje culture which again shows two J2b2 samples of two different clades. Daunians are descended of Southern Illyrians and they do now show E-V13. Just the mere fact that almost all Illyrians are J-L283 and almost all Daco-Thracians are E-V13 is enough to blast worthless ramblings of so many internet Albanians into oblivion. The reason is the same as for I1 not being Celtic, or U152 not being Scandinavian.

The reason why Albanians have so much E-V13 is also obvious, Albanians are not Illyrians. They do not speak an Illyrian descended language as affirmed by Matzinger recently and as affirmed by all available evidence about the proto-Albanian language. They might be plenty of Illyrian descended J-L283 carriers in Albanians but mostly they are locals, part of whom belonged to the Romanized Komani culture. They are descended of Latin speakers who lost the Illyrian language by 3rd, 4th century AD. Part of them might have been elsewhere, in Dardania, as it seems proto-Albanians or proto-Vlachs there met some remnants of Illyrians who passed onto them some influence.

Albanians also autosomally have little to do with Illyrians. Take this G25 model with proto-Slavic AV2, with Iron Age Bulgarian/Thracian and with no less than 3 IA Illyrians from Dalmatia.
Target: AlbanianDistance: 2.3147% / 0.02314740
70.6 BGR_IA
26.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
3.0 HRV_EIA

Despite having all these Illyrians in the model, Albanians are autosomally mostly Iron Age Bulgarian with some Slavic and little Illyrian influence. The earliest named leaders of Albanians from the very early 13th century carried titles typical for Vlachs, typical for shepherds. One of them even had a Romanian name. All of this is an indication that not so long before the first mention of Albanians they were not located in Albania, but likely somewhere in Dardania. Also the term Arbanas is obviously from historical sources just based on being settled in Arban region. Also interestingly Shqiptar is actually much older than I thought, it does date at least to 14th century.

EDIT: WTF is wrong with this place, space and enter don't work... (tried now with a different browser)

[mount123]

Just get into your head that E-V13 has nothing to do with the Glasinac-Mat culture as evidenced by all ancient DNA and as predicted by me long ago because Glasinac-Mat is deeply connected to the MBA Posušje culture which again shows two J2b2 samples of two different clades. Daunians are descended of Southern Illyrians and they do now show E-V13. Just the mere fact that almost all Illyrians are J-L283 and almost all Daco-Thracians are E-V13 is enough to blast worthless ramblings of so many internet Albanians into oblivion. The reason is the same as for I1 not being Celtic, or U152 not being Scandinavian. The reason why Albanians have so much E-V13 is also obvious, Albanians are not Illyrians. They do not speak an Illyrian descended language as affirmed by Matzinger recently and as affirmed by all available evidence about the proto-Albanian language. They might be plenty of Illyrian descended J-L283 carriers in Albanians but mostly they are locals, part of whom belonged to the Romanized Komani culture. They are descended of Latin speakers who lost the Illyrian language by 3rd, 4th century AD. Part of them might have been elsewhere, in Dardania, as it seems proto-Albanians or proto-Vlachs there met some remnants of Illyrians who passed onto them some influence. Albanians also autosomally have little to do with Illyrians. Take this G25 model with proto-Slavic AV2, with Iron Age Bulgarian/Thracian and with no less than 3 IA Illyrians from Dalmatia. Target: AlbanianDistance: 2.3147% / 0.0231474070.6 BGR_IA26.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad3.0 HRV_EIA Despite having all these Illyrians in the model, Albanians are autosomally mostly Iron Age Bulgarian with some Slavic and little Illyrian influence. The earliest named leaders of Albanians from the very early 13th century carried titles typical for Vlachs, typical for shepherds. One of them even had a Romanian name. All of this is an indication that not so long before the first mention of Albanians they were not located in Albania, but likely somewhere in Dardania. Also the term Arbanas is obviously from historical sources just based on being settled in Arban region. Also interestingly Shqiptar is actually much older than I thought, it does date at least to 14th century. WTF is wrong with this place, space and enter don't work...

The mixing of the Illyrians and the other ''group'' definitely happened much earlier than the Middle Ages. The Albanians as such predated the Slavic hordes in Southeastern Europe. The Illyrian language is incredibly undocumented, so no real conclusions can be drawn here.


As for the other propaganda diarrhea, Ukraina po t'thirr.

[Fustan]

E-V13 or R1b-Z2705 might be represented in some Illyrian groups after various mixings, but they do not form the core of Illyrian ethnogenesis.




Did you see that post? Maybe I got my golden blond hair and grey green eyes from the Sumerians 🤣 Still waiting for that tan though… bregdet vacation can be quite painful.

Not the core of the Illyrian ethnogenesis, maybe, but they must have been represented in Illyrian enthos otherwise most Albanians don't descent from Illyrians which is not true.
As for Aspurg, save your WPM for a coauthorship with some random idiot on poreklo or stormfront. Not worth engaging with someone who celebrated a contaminated Slavic I2a sample.

[mount123]

At this point, as per usual, I kindly remind everyone that this thread is only about "J2b-L283 (Proto-Illyrian).

I am very much sure that there are other fora where you can share nationalistic pseudoscientific "hypotheses" with other weird people.

[Hawk]

mount123/enter_tain/Thraco-Illyrian/Fatherland how many alternative accounts will you open?

[Hawk]

Just get into your head that E-V13 has nothing to do with the Glasinac-Mat culture as evidenced by all ancient DNA and as predicted by me long ago because Glasinac-Mat is deeply connected to the MBA Posušje culture which again shows two J2b2 samples of two different clades. Daunians are descended of Southern Illyrians and they do now show E-V13. Just the mere fact that almost all Illyrians are J-L283 and almost all Daco-Thracians are E-V13 is enough to blast worthless ramblings of so many internet Albanians into oblivion. The reason is the same as for I1 not being Celtic, or U152 not being Scandinavian. The reason why Albanians have so much E-V13 is also obvious, Albanians are not Illyrians. They do not speak an Illyrian descended language as affirmed by Matzinger recently and as affirmed by all available evidence about the proto-Albanian language. They might be plenty of Illyrian descended J-L283 carriers in Albanians but mostly they are locals, part of whom belonged to the Romanized Komani culture. They are descended of Latin speakers who lost the Illyrian language by 3rd, 4th century AD. Part of them might have been elsewhere, in Dardania, as it seems proto-Albanians or proto-Vlachs there met some remnants of Illyrians who passed onto them some influence. Albanians also autosomally have little to do with Illyrians. Take this G25 model with proto-Slavic AV2, with Iron Age Bulgarian/Thracian and with no less than 3 IA Illyrians from Dalmatia. Target: AlbanianDistance: 2.3147% / 0.0231474070.6 BGR_IA26.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad3.0 HRV_EIA Despite having all these Illyrians in the model, Albanians are autosomally mostly Iron Age Bulgarian with some Slavic and little Illyrian influence. The earliest named leaders of Albanians from the very early 13th century carried titles typical for Vlachs, typical for shepherds. One of them even had a Romanian name. All of this is an indication that not so long before the first mention of Albanians they were not located in Albania, but likely somewhere in Dardania. Also the term Arbanas is obviously from historical sources just based on being settled in Arban region. Also interestingly Shqiptar is actually much older than I thought, it does date at least to 14th century. WTF is wrong with this place, space and enter don't work...

Let's wait for Southern-arch paper, we will have enough samples to make conclusion. But, you might be right anyway, either fully or partially.

[mount123]

Not the core of the Illyrian ethnogenesis, maybe, but they must have been represented in Illyrian enthos otherwise most Albanians don't descent from Illyrians which is not true.
As for Aspurg, save your WPM for a coauthorship with some random idiot on poreklo or stormfront. Not worth engaging with someone who celebrated a contaminated Slavic I2a sample.

We have strong paternal and most definitely also Illyrian autosomal heritage. But saying all E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 is of Illyrian descent is very exaggerated.

As for that "Asuprgistan guy" I just wanted to make it clear with my last North-East-Geg or as we call it over here "Guha e Fush Dardhes" sentence, that I don't agree with his Anti-Albanian/Anti-Kosovar sentiment driven propaganda (I mean would be ironic if I did).

[Fustan]

At this point, as per usual, I kindly remind everyone that this thread is only about "J2b-L283 (Proto-Illyrian).

I am very much sure that there are other fora where you can share nationalistic pseudoscientific "hypotheses" with other weird people.

True, let's get back on topic of our great Illyrian haplogroup.

[Fustan]

We have strong paternal and most definitely also Illyrian autosomal heritage. But saying all E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 is of Illyrian descent is very exaggerated.

As for that "Asuprgistan guy" I just wanted to make it clear with my last North-East-Geg or as we call it over here "Guha e Fush Dardhes" sentence, that I don't agree with his Anti-Albanian/Anti-Kosovar sentiment driven propaganda (I mean would be ironic if I did).

Sure, but I'm not completely familiar with the EV13 or R-L23 clades at all. My position is that the largest of their respective clades that Albanians fall into were part of the Illyrian ethnos. Some might be ancient Greek or even Thracian. No ethnicity ever belonged or belongs to just one haplogroup. J2-L283 was obviously the founding one, and looking at this thread it's us who have to teach our EV13 Albanians about it all over again, it's come full circle.

[mount123]

As for Aspurg, save your WPM for a coauthorship with some random idiot on poreklo or stormfront. Not worth engaging with someone who celebrated a contaminated Slavic I2a sample.

Honestly, I don't care about them now, so I won't deal with them. Only joined this forum as I am the son of a Krasniqi man and a Korbi woman and am therefore very interested in our haplogroup and Illyrian heritage. It would all be much more relaxed without the input of weird people galloping from one "theory" to another.


(The other accounts do not belong to me, nor do I have anything to do with these people. I am saying this since that „Hakuna matata“ person is claiming that 🤣)


I'm a physics student so I've never looked into biological subjects like population genetics before, but these fora are for sure a magnet for twitter historians.


Yeah that Slavic sample and the "people" who celebrated it was for sure cringe af.

[Aspurg]

Not the core of the Illyrian ethnogenesis, maybe, but they must have been represented in Illyrian enthos otherwise most Albanians don't descent from Illyrians which is not true.
As for Aspurg, save your WPM for a coauthorship with some random idiot on poreklo or stormfront. Not worth engaging with someone who celebrated a contaminated Slavic I2a sample.

I "celebrated" the I2a sample?? Why would I do that, I was just trolling.. Obviously autosomally it doesn't fit into an Illyrian.

Now about Albanians. The only proto-Albanian clades can be those present in both Ghegs and Tosks. And these are:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4465/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y173822/

Is there a single Tosk here?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/

I'm not sure.

So why Tosks lack J-L283 and not only do they lack it but they show different clades, they show more of J-Z631 as opposed to Ghegs. It seems some population roaming around carrying Z2705, BY4465 and Y173822 picked up these J2b2 people that were sitting there and "Albanized" them.

[mount123]

True, let's get back on topic of our great Illyrian haplogroup.

Po Ilir jena!

Sorry on my behalf too for engaging in conversations with these people.

[mount123]

I "celebrated" the I2a sample?? Why would I do that, I was just trolling.. Obviously autosomally it doesn't fit into an Illyrian.

Now about Albanians. The only proto-Albanian clades can be those present in both Ghegs and Tosks. And these are:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4465/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y173822/

Is there a single Tosk here?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/

I'm not sure.

So why Tosks lack J-L283 and not only do they lack it but they show different clades, they show more of J-Z631 as opposed to Ghegs. It seems some population roaming around carrying Z2705, BY4465 and Y173822 picked up these J2b2 people that were sitting there and "Albanized" them.

Laughs in Korbi J2b-Z631

[Aspurg]

Let's wait for Southern-arch paper, we will have enough samples to make conclusion. But, you might be right anyway, either fully or partially.

Yes for sure we are waiting for that paper. I am very interested in any V13 samples and where will they appear (other than those samples from Bulgaria that we know of).

Having seen these Albanian leaders and especially their shepherd titles from the 1204. Ragusian document. Here son of the first Albanian ruler Progon, Dimitri is mentioned alongside some other nobles (one progenitor of an Albanian noble house). It is hard to imagine these people having anything to do with the Comani-Kroja culture which was not pastoral. One can still see they carried "Vlachoid/shepherd" titles at that time... This was recently published by a Serb historian who is a Byzantine specialist, so he has been researching also the area of Albania.

[enter_tain]

I love the tactics of these people. Years ago, Albanians were Turks. Then they came from the Caucaus or North Africa or something. Then now it's the Balkans, but it's not Illyrian it's Dacian or Thracian. Now that linguistically neither Dacian/Thracian show Albanian conventions, it's some random ghost population.

Every year the possibilities are shrinking more and more to where they can displace a tribe that was literally mentioned to be there for over 2000 years. Now they're relegated to southern Serbia or something.