J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Sile:When's your book coming out? Galabri became Taulanti? Please provide a source. Galabri could have become Calabri and Apuli in Dacia became Apuli in South Italy could make sense, but the Taulanti theory is new to me. The Triballi were also considered as Illyrian from the mythological genealogy, where Triballus was the son of Illyrus if I'm not mistaken. These are all useless speculation, but since the topic focuses on it we can opt for a dual proto-thracian and proto-illyrian origin.
 
Sile:When's your book coming out? Galabri became Taulanti? Please provide a source. Galabri could have become Calabri and Apuli in Dacia became Apuli in South Italy could make sense, but the Taulanti theory is new to me. The Triballi were also considered as Illyrian from the mythological genealogy, where Triballus was the son of Illyrus if I'm not mistaken. These are all useless speculation, but since the topic focuses on it we can opt for a dual proto-thracian and proto-illyrian origin.
I never seen the triballi as associated with illyrian .........I see
Triballi, a Thracian people whose earliest known home was the “Triballian plain” (probably the Plain of Kosovo), near the junction of the Angrus and Brongus rivers (the western and southern Morava) in the north-central Balkans. Sometime after 424 bc they were overcome by the Autariatae from the north. Later The Triballi fought off the Macedonians of Phillip II from the south
Galabrii as noted by historian William Forester.......the name galabrii is unknown , but should be changed to taulantii as Galabrus was the king of the Taulantii in northern Albania
 
Hi everyone, I have been reading the posts staring the first thread and I noticed that a possible connection was postulated between Albanians and Myceaneans through J2b2. Given that recently we have evidence that Myceneans were quite similar to Minoans and we only found Myceneans carrying haplogroup J2a. Does someone think that J2b2 may have entered Greece through a later invasion like the Dorians? In that case Dorians would have been more Balkanic than the Myceneans.
Also, I am rather puzzled because of the fact that Gheghs pretty much lack haplogroup J2b1. Since the latter haplogroup seems to be quite old, I wonder how Ghegh Albanians don't have it. I would definitely expect Illyrians to carry this haplogroup as well.
Haplogroup-J2b1.png

You may read my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 here and here, which was written before we had the Mycenaean ancient DNA. My analysis pointing that current Greek J2b2-L283 subclades are unlikely to be present among Mycenaeans, and are as a result of later migrations from further North (Dorians, Illyrians Thracians, and later Vlachs and Albanians), stands.

Regarding J2b1-M205, as Dema pointed out, in the mainland Balkans (outside of the the Mediterranean), all of it seems to fall under J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066 and has a TMRCA of only ca. 900-1500 years, which suggests it was likely not present there before the common era, hence the reason why (Gheg) Albanians are almost completely lacking it. Unfortunately, many people don't understand haplogroup J2b quite well, so they assume they are part of the same migration. True, J2b1-M205 has a TMRCA of ca. 6000 years, but in ancient DNA is consistently being found in the Levant area. It's distribution is actually quite reminiscent of some branches of haplogroup J2a.
So far the only J2b that has "deep roots" (high TMRCA) in Europe, and found in ancient DNA from the Bronze Age or before (in Croatia) is J2b2-L283, which as we know reaches maximum frequency among (Gheg) Albanians, while being quite low everywhere else, albeit with some representation among Vlachs and Greeks.
 
I never seen the triballi as associated with illyrian .........I see
Triballi, a Thracian people whose earliest known home was the “Triballian plain” (probably the Plain of Kosovo), near the junction of the Angrus and Brongus rivers (the western and southern Morava) in the north-central Balkans. Sometime after 424 bc they were overcome by the Autariatae from the north. Later The Triballi fought off the Macedonians of Phillip II from the south
Galabrii as noted by historian William Forester.......the name galabrii is unknown , but should be changed to taulantii as Galabrus was the king of the Taulantii in northern Albania


Sile is not Calambri but Gambrili, I know you know it,

calambri fits with Poltobri mesebri etc
 
You may read my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 here and here, which was written before we had the Mycenaean ancient DNA. My analysis pointing that J2b2-L283 is unlikely to be present among Mycenaeans, and is as a result of later migrations from further North (Dorians, Illyrians, and later Vlachs and Albanians), seems to stand.

Regarding J2b1-M205, as Dema pointed out, in the mainland Balkans (outside of the the Mediterranean), all of it seems to fall under J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066 and has a TMRCA of only ca. 900-1200 years, which suggests it was likely not present there before the common era, hence the reason why (Gheg) Albanians are almost completely lacking it. Unfortunately, many people don't understand haplogroup J2b quite well, so they assume they are part of the same migration. True, J2b1-M205 has a TMRCA of ca. 6000 years, but in ancient DNA is consistently being found in the Levant area. So far the only J2b that has "deep roots" (high TMRCA) in Europe, and found in ancient DNA from the Bronze Age (Croatia) is J2b2-L283.

I hope, by that, you do not mean that drop from the sky
 
Sile is not Calambri but Gambrili, I know you know it,
calambri fits with Poltobri mesebri etc
I do not know what you mean
.
strabo says .........."To the Dardaniatae belong also the Galabrii, among whom is an ancient city, and the Thunatae"
these are the 2 tribes
...
I now believe that there was only 2 main ethnic people of the balkans in ancient times of the later bronze-age and early iron-age ..........they are Greeks and Thracians
 
Recently while studying Strabo and other Roman historians ..........I begin to see that the only people the Dorians and myceneans can be associated with are the Thracians, I suspect these 2 along with Dacians and getae are sub branches of thracian.
.
Strabo states the illyrians are from the eastern alps circa 1300BC and following that, the hungarian scholar in his book Noricum further states that the Dalmatians migrated to the coast of the Adriatic sea around 500-600BC from modern austria/slovenia.
.

J2b2 was presented in Thracians what today's researchers in recent scientific paper called Albanian-Bulgarian cluster because same subclades in Bulgaria and Albania.

But what is interesting it seems after arrived warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia (via Bosphorus) in Pannonia 2000 BC after mix with locals we can speak about Proto-Illyrians and known direction toward Austria and after that other western and southwesten directions there were directions toward East too (before mix with locals or after it is impossible to determine in this moment).

This means Dacians, especially Free Dacians, Carpi and maybe Costoboces had haplogroup J2b2. We cannot be sure without samples from Carpi (and Costoboces) epochs in their historical homelands because Carpi (and Costoboces) almost extinct in their homeland (historical regions Moldova, Bucovina, Maramures and surrounding, Carpathian). But everywhere where Carpi moved (South and Western Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.) we can find J2b2. In recent study in one small province in Hungary in furthermost North-Western (Carpathian area) found one J2b2 who belongs Bulgarian-Albanian cluster.
 
Garrick - there is a J2b in dalmatia from 1700 bc. That is the only data point we have from ancient times. Every theory has to pass through that point. Dalmatia is not Thracian territory.
Ancient thracian dna has been found, and J2b was not among them.

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J2b2 was presented in Thracians what today's researchers in recent scientific paper called Albanian-Bulgarian cluster because same subclades in Bulgaria and Albania.
But what is interesting it seems after arrived warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia (via Bosphorus) in Pannonia 2000 BC after mix with locals we can speak about Proto-Illyrians and known direction toward Austria and after that other western and southwesten directions there were directions toward East too (before mix with locals or after it is impossible to determine in this moment).
This means Dacians, especially Free Dacians, Carpi and maybe Costoboces had haplogroup J2b2. We cannot be sure without samples from Carpi (and Costoboces) epochs in their historical homelands because Carpi (and Costoboces) extinct in their homeland (present day Moldova province in Romania and surrounding). But everywhere where Carpi moved (South and Western Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.) we can find J2b2. In recent study in one small province in Hungary found one J2b2 who belongs Bulgarian-Albanian cluster.

Why are you wasting our time with nonsense like this. J2b2-L283 has not been found in an ancient DNA context in Thrace territory to date. So this is a disinformation. Instead, it has been found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Illyrian territory).

You claim all/same "subclades" found in Albania are also found in Bulgaria, which is not true. Then you claim there is this hypothetical "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster. I know there is no such cluster either, so another disinformation.

What you don't realize or mention is that one Albanian J2b2 cluster is showing a TMRCA of 2400 ybp between two Albanian BigY's (Illyrian times) and no Bulgarian is in it:
490619_illyrianalbanian.jpg

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/

So multiple lies in one post by Garrick the Serb, or should I call it disinformation...
 
Garrick - there is a J2b in dalmatia from 1700 bc. That is the only data point we have from ancient times. Every theory has to pass through that point. Dalmatia is not Thracian territory.
Ancient thracian dna has been found, and J2b was not among them.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Eupedia Forum mobile app
J2b2 sample from Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia was Bulgarian, Dacian (free Dacian?). No Illyrian, Illyrian Bosphorus, Anatolia. Albanian from Bulgaria 2000BC, now scientist from Serbia confirmed.
 
Why are you wasting our time with nonsense like this. J2b2-L283 has not been found in an ancient DNA context in Thrace territory to date. So this is a lie from you. Instead it has been found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Illyrian territory).
You claim that that all "subclades" found in Albania are also found in Bulgaria, which is not true. Then you claim there is this hypothetical "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster. And I know there is no such cluster either, so another lie.
What you don't realize or mention is that one Albanian J2b2 cluster is showing a TMRCA of 2400 ybp between two Albanian BigY's (Illyrian times) and no Bulgarian is in it:
490619_illyrianalbanian.jpg

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/
So multiple lies in one post by Garrick the Serb!!!
current recent findings state that the dalmatians arrived on the adriatic coast between 500-600BC

and that they lived originally further north
the only population which could have been on that adriatic coast prior to 500-600BC was the thracians ............the Dorians where long gone

....
BTW.....your dates should read 450BC and the other 800AD
 
J2b2 sample from Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia was Bulgarian, Dacian (free Dacian?). No Illyrian, Illyrian Bosphorus, Anatolia. Albanian from Bulgaria 2000BC, now scientist from Serbia confirmed.
I am not sure if you did quote tge wrong post or just misunderstood me?

I am saying that the only ancient J2b we have is located in dalmatia at 1700bc. That place coincides with illyrian lands (not thracian). The timing (1700bc) is slightly before illyrian period. Therefore, Maciamo correctly writes that this sample is a clear indication that J2b might be related to proto-illyrian.
Two points are important: an indication is not definitive proof - few more samples are required to proof it beyond any doubt. The other point regards the possibility of a comun proto father for both illyrians and thracians (linguistics has indications of some connections). So if some ancient J2b are also found in the future in thracian territory than we will have proof of the illyrian-thracian connection - clearly this is just one possibility for now, and not supported by ancient dna.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Eupedia Forum mobile app
 
J2b2 was presented in Thracians what today's researchers in recent scientific paper called Albanian-Bulgarian cluster because same subclades in Bulgaria and Albania.

But what is interesting it seems after arrived warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia (via Bosphorus) in Pannonia 2000 BC after mix with locals we can speak about Proto-Illyrians and known direction toward Austria and after that other western and southwesten directions there were directions toward East too (before mix with locals or after it is impossible to determine in this moment).

This means Dacians, especially Free Dacians, Carpi and maybe Costoboces had haplogroup J2b2. We cannot be sure without samples from Carpi (and Costoboces) epochs in their historical homelands because Carpi (and Costoboces) almost extinct in their homeland (historical regions Moldova, Bucovina, Maramures and surrounding, Carpathian). But everywhere where Carpi moved (South and Western Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.) we can find J2b2. In recent study in one small province in Hungary in furthermost North-Western (Carpathian area) found one J2b2 who belongs Bulgarian-Albanian cluster.

The thracians are far too numerous in the balkans .............I would like to find out if the Dorians where a sub-branch of the Thracians. it would then mean that ancient greek and ancient thracian linguistically can be aligned and as we know now illyrian and greek is not aligned.

Illyrian is most likely a sub- east celtic dialect similar to pannonia
 
I am not sure if you did quote tge wrong post or just misunderstood me?
I am saying that the only ancient J2b we have is located in dalmatia at 1700bc. That place coincides with illyrian lands (not thracian). The timing (1700bc) is slightly before illyrian period. Therefore, Maciamo correctly writes that this sample is a clear indication that J2b might be related to proto-illyrian.
Two points are important: an indication is not definitive proof - few more samples are required to proof it beyond any doubt. The other point regards the possibility of a comun proto father for both illyrians and thracians (linguistics has indications of some connections). So if some ancient J2b are also found in the future in thracian territory than we will have proof of the illyrian-thracian connection - clearly this is just one possibility for now, and not supported by ancient dna.
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He is being sarcastic.

I think it would be better if you add L283 to J2b ;)
It's like saying E1b, but not specifying which branch we mean when we talk about E1b-V13.

Otherwise, what you said makes sense. I think it's quite possible J2b2-L283 will be found in Thracian remains as well, given its high TMRCA in the Balkans which dates well into the Bronze Age. Currently however, we have no evidence of that.
 
Garrick - there is a J2b in dalmatia from 1700 bc. That is the only data point we have from ancient times. Every theory has to pass through that point. Dalmatia is not Thracian territory.
Ancient thracian dna has been found, and J2b was not among them.

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Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.

But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).

In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).
 
Why are you wasting our time with nonsense like this. J2b2-L283 has not been found in an ancient DNA context in Thrace territory to date. So this is a disinformation. Instead, it has been found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Illyrian territory).

You claim all/same "subclades" found in Albania are also found in Bulgaria, which is not true. Then you claim there is this hypothetical "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster. I know there is no such cluster either, so another disinformation.

What you don't realize or mention is that one Albanian J2b2 cluster is showing a TMRCA of 2400 ybp between two Albanian BigY's (Illyrian times) and no Bulgarian is in it:
490619_illyrianalbanian.jpg

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/

So multiple lies in one post by Garrick the Serb, or should I call it disinformation...

No, I didn't say that J2b2 found in Thracian land in samples in relevant epoches and historical territory, I don't know how you understood this wrong.

What I said that in today's population who live in former Thracian land (in Bulgaria, Romania etc) found J2b2, I think it is clear.

And what you didn't understand in recent scientific paper from 2017 scientists created term "Albanian-Bulgarian cluster" for J2b2, I gave this fact from their scientific paper, do you read scientific papers.
 
And what you didn't understand in recent scientific paper from 2017 scientists created term "Albanian-Bulgarian cluster" for J2b2, I gave this fact from their scientific paper, do you read scientific papers.

Again, you don't even mention or link which "scientific paper" this alleged "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster was identified in. I'm sure I would've heard of it, if there was such "scientific paper".

Perhaps this is something you read from "the scientists" at the Serbian forum, Poreklo. Or perhaps you're just making it up...
 
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Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.

But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).

In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).
Yes yes yes, relevant epoches historical areas Bastarnea CTS10228 Germanic-Celtic = Serbian - Illyrian, big number. No, J2b2 in furthemost North-Western Hungary (Carpathian area) is enslaved Dacian, confirmed scientific papers. Free Dacians no sample yet.
 
Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.

But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).

In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).

Garrick, nothing is 100% sure with the actual data. It is very rare chance that the J2b2-L287 of croatia was only proto-Tharcian with no connection with proto-Illyrian. Still is not an impossibility.

I think I remember seeing on the kings bloodlines post (this forum) some J2b2 in the romanian families (and also Ev13). I dont know if they are albanian (I cannot confirm). Honestly, people moved lot after the roman empire felt and mixed with each other (even before). Balkan today is relatively homogeneous. Autosomally, albanians are closer to tuscan than to bulgarian - even though the difference is relatively small. Quite curious about the percentage of J2b2-L287 in tuscan.

I did not see the paper you are talking about, can you send me a link?
 
Again, you don't specify which "scientific paper" this alleged "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster was identified in. I'm sure I would've heard of it, if such were the case.

Or perhaps this is something you read from "the scientists" at the Serbian forum, Poreklo...

What do you speak about?

I don't use Serbian sources, how many times I have to say this (except if some scientific research is done in Serbia what is very rarely), I have nothing with site Poreklo, nothing, I know nobody from this site, even very rarely read and explained once why.

It seems you read much more Poreklo than I, do you know Serbian.
...

By the way, scientists are Hungarian, what is logic because research and samples are from area in Hungaria:

Pamjav, H.

Fothi A.

Feher T.

Fothi E.

Do you want their references? They are scientists, PhD, experts, and know matter much better than we, hobbyists.

They found one carrier in their study for whom they say to belong Albanian-Bulgarian cluster.

Paper is from 2017, it is very interesting.

But you gave me idea that put this paper as new thread.
 

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