J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[enter_tain]

we should use the Roman term and call them Epirotes
southern Illyrians are all Montengrians or coastal Bosnians
like
Docleatae
The Docleatae (Ancient Greek: Δοκλεᾶται, romanized: Dokleatai) were an Illyrian tribe that lived in what is now Montenegro. Their capital was Doclea[57] (or Dioclea), and they are called after the town. They had settled west of the Morača river, up to Montenegro's present-day borders with Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Pirustae
The Pirustae or Pyrissaei[100] (Ancient Greek: Πειροῦσται[101] or Πυρισσαῖοι)[60] were a Pannonian Illyrian[102] tribe that lived in modern Montenegro.
Ceraunii
Ceraunii (Ancient Greek: Κεραύνιοι, romanized: Keraunioi) was the name of an Illyrian tribe that lived close to the Pirustae[107] in modern Montenegro.
and these others
Pleraei
Pleraei, Plarioi, Pyraei, Pleraioi, Plaraioi or Palarioi (Ancient Greek: Παλάριοι) was the name of an Illyrian tribe.[59]
Endirudini
Endirudini or Interphrourinoi (Ancient Greek: Ἰντερφρουρῖνοι)[60] was the name of an Illyrian tribe that became part of the Docleatae.[35]
Sasaei
Sasaei was the name of an Illyrian tribe that became part of the Docleatae.[35]
Grabaei
The Grabaei or Kambaioi (Ancient Greek: Καμβαῖοι)[60] were a minor Illyrian group that lived around Lake Scutari.[61]
Labeates
The Labeates or Labeatae (Ancient Greek: Λαβεᾶται) were an Illyrian tribe that lived (after being defeated by Parmenio) around Scodra.[62]

The term "Illyria" was first used by Greeks to refer to their northern neighbours. Only during Roman times it was expanded to mean all tribes from Greece to Slovenia (and they were right in grouping them as the J2B2-L283 lineages show). As far as J2B2-L283 is concerned, these are the "Z638" crowd, that is missing in Croatia/Slovenia apart from that 1 southern Dalmatian sample.

The main "Illyria proper" tribes were tribes like Taulantii and Dardanii. We know Alexander fought against Cleitus (King Bardyllis' son from Dardania) and Glaucias (Taulantian King, whose father also fought against Philip). They often intermarried and were frenemies. Philip II's mother was stated to be Illyrian by ancient sources, and so was his first wife Audata an Illyrian. Glaucias' wife Borea was from the Molossian clan of Epirus and he adopted Pyrrhus of Epirus. Philip lived in Illyria as a child. Even Alexander also lived in Illyria when he got in a fight with his father.

As such, southern Illyrians clearly had genetic/cultural links with Epirotes and Macedonians. So it certainly won't be as J2B2-L283 dominant as northern Illyria, who were close to the Proto-Illyrian Urheimat in Central/Eastern Europe. They are going to be more "Greek-like" like modern Albanians who cluster identically with northern Greeks.

 

[torzio]

The term "Illyria" was first used by Greeks to refer to their northern neighbours. Only during Roman times it was expanded to mean all tribes from Greece to Slovenia (and they were right in grouping them as the J2B2-L283 lineages show). As far as J2B2-L283 is concerned, these are the "Z638" crowd, that is missing in Croatia/Slovenia apart from that 1 southern Dalmatian sample.

The main "Illyria proper" tribes were tribes like Taulantii and Dardanii. We know Alexander fought against Cleitus (King Bardyllis' son from Dardania) and Glaucias (Taulantian King, whose father also fought against Philip). They often intermarried and were frenemies. Philip II's mother was stated to be Illyrian by ancient sources, and so was his first wife Audata an Illyrian. Glaucias' wife Borea was from the Molossian clan of Epirus and he adopted Pyrrhus of Epirus. Philip lived in Illyria as a child. Even Alexander also lived in Illyria when he got in a fight with his father.

As such, southern Illyrians clearly had genetic/cultural links with Epirotes and Macedonians. So it certainly won't be as J2B2-L283 dominant as northern Illyria, who were close to the Proto-Illyrian Urheimat in Central/Eastern Europe. They are going to be more "Greek-like" like modern Albanians who cluster identically with northern Greeks.

the term used by Greeks in regards to Illyrian was used to indicate barbarians/non Greeks ...........they even called Epirotes Illyrians in the early times

No Illyrian proper where all Montengrian Illyrian tribes plus the Taulantii ...but never the Dardanii ( I already supplied map and all the tribes recently on this ...inside last 3 months )
The Taulantii where effectively destroyed by the Macedonian invasion of 314BC ............the remnants of the Taulantii where no longer viable as a effective tribe
In 314, one of Alexander's successors, Cassander of Macedonia, invaded the land of the Taulanti, subdued the tribe, and added the Greek towns of Apollonia and Epidamnus to his realm, essentially creating a land route from the Aegean Sea to the Adriatic Sea



The only tribes as per pliny account of Illyrie Proprie Dicti .................there are no other tribes unless you want to manufacture roman accounts

 

[torzio]

Glaucias' wife Borea was from the Molossian clan of Epirus and he adopted Pyrrhus of Epirus. Philip lived in Illyria as a child. Even Alexander also lived in Illyria when he got in a fight with his father.

As such, southern Illyrians clearly had genetic/cultural links with Epirotes and Macedonians. So it certainly won't be as J2B2-L283 dominant as northern Illyria, who were close to the Proto-Illyrian Urheimat in Central/Eastern Europe. They are going to be more "Greek-like" like modern Albanians who cluster identically with northern Greeks.

The Epirotes where made up of 14 tribes with the Chaonians and Molossians the biggest 2 ..................they are neither Greek nor Illyrian in ethnicity

 

[bigsnake49]

Didn't Phillip (Alexander's father) married like 8 different women from the surrounding tribes (Illyrian and Epirotan)? Better than spilling blood, I think .

 

[mount123]

This is not a thread for personal pseudoscientific hypotheses. This thread is about J2b-L283 only. Read the threads title.

 

[Papayaseeds]

It is well known that Provyn picks and chooses the samples he wants to use ( he selects them carefully ) ..........................he was supplied, when he first began, with many ancient proven samples from pree Haak times but refused to use them as they ( many ) did not fit his "100% out of Africa " theory

Lol why does it bother you ? Go to the T y dna thread instead and stop polluting ours with your garbage.

 

[torzio]

Lol why does it bother you ? Go to the T y dna thread instead and stop polluting ours with your garbage.

ROFL

Trying to clean up your polluted garbage as you state , the fabricated history that is created.....................or as some say Nationalistic propaganda

 

[torzio]

Didn't Phillip (Alexander's father) married like 8 different women from the surrounding tribes (Illyrian and Epirotan)? Better than spilling blood, I think .

Philip II ..........yes he did ............He also fought the Paeonians in the 355BC and made them a vassal of Macedonia and then encountered the Illyrians coming down the the western side of Dardania ...his first war with them, he had many wars with them as they ( illyrians ) tried to conquer Dardania and Paeonia.

The illyrian tribe was the
Autariatae
The Autariatae or Autariates (Ancient Greek: Αὐταριᾶται) were an Illyrian tribe that became prominent between the 6th and 4th centuries BC. The tribe had been Celticized.[14]

When Alexander came along with his father was when the Autariate Illyrians gave up the fight and made a truce

 

[Fustan]

Lol why does it bother you ? Go to the T y dna thread instead and stop polluting ours with your garbage.

So true, for years he is polluting my thread. A descendant of a non Indo-European line like T who's so obsessed with J2B2 and Albanians in particular for all of these years, maybe I'll find some psychology students at my University who can analyze and help me out understanding as to why someone would act like this for almost 7+ years.

I repeat: he is T, has no connection to the Indo Europeans and always spouts misinformation about out great haplogroup, J2B2. Just ignore, because the admins obviously have refused to ban or even warn him, probably because of an Italian bias.

 

[torzio]

So true, for years he is polluting my thread. A descendant of a non Indo-European line like T who's so obsessed with J2B2 and Albanians in particular for all of these years, maybe I'll find some psychology students at my University who can analyze and help me out understanding as to why someone would act like this for almost 7+ years.
I repeat: he is T, has no connection to the Indo Europeans and always spouts misinformation about out great haplogroup, J2B2. Just ignore, because the admins obviously have refused to ban or even warn him, probably because of an Italian bias.

LOL
you know nothing
T is brother to R ydna ......same family ...............are you saying R is not indo-European either


You need to stop listening to Archetypeone .........he is always erred

 

[Archetype0ne]

LOL
you know nothing
T is brother to R ydna ......same family ...............are you saying R is not indo-European either


You need to stop listening to Archetypeone .........he is always erred

For the longest time I can not tell are you deficient or intentionally misleading people. The only thing I err about is giving attention to your off topic bullshit.

Then 20 branches down and 20, 000 years later you get R

That's just the facts disagreeing with you claim. Exhibit A - deceptive behavior.

But even if the facts agreed with you claim, just cause I can fly a plane, that does not make my uncle a pilot. If you even get that. Exhibit B - deficiency.

I am usually much nicer to people. But seeing as this is your 3nd account that I know of with over 5000 posts, mainly throwing manure in unrelated threads, being a contrarian with anything Albanian: examples - sile (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/29587-Sile) or zanipolo(https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/28889-zanipolo).

Just like a snake changes skin you change accounts, then regurgitate BS under new names every couple of years. You can change your coat, but your dispositions are obvious. I do not give enough of a f to go find all the nonsensical BS you have said over the years on Albanians, or how you have gone out of your way with your obsession to denigrate, undermine, and siderail any scientific discussions. Now please never mentioned my alias again.

 

[Archetype0ne]

What Bodin is trying to say if I understood him correctly is that I2a2 was brought into the balkans by the Sarmatians/slavs and that the Illyrian/balkan area was already R1a

So, while I agree that no marker should be assigned as a cultural marker , example R1a is a slavic marker ????

I disagree with Bodin on the I2a2 issue. I think both I2a2 and Ria was in the balkans pre bronze age.

ancient documentation states no albanians anywhere, but albanian lands where settled by Epirote and Molossians, since I initially thought Pindo was a town in thessally ( home of the molossian/albanians. I found Pinto meant Pintus mountains, a region in northern greece.

Finding that the 4 "tribes" of the albanians , Gabel, Gheg, Jveg and Tosk have different haplotypes as provided in the link, would seem to indicate that albanians where a mixed race

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/S6ZYexugWoI/AAAAAAAACVA/1I9HXeBDFQY/s1600-h/albanians.png

It would be interesting to map where these 4 tribes are situated in albanian lands

Imagine when a Serb forum member in 2011! have to put the breaks on your racist rants:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...heir-DNA/page2?p=382731&viewfull=1#post382731

What conclusion ..........its fact, tosk is the national language.........get the government to bring it back to pre -communist then........its the people that need to make the changes......just remember that over time the young will only know about tosk.
.
imaginary? ..........i work with him, he is albanian -macedonia...does that make him not albanian ........I do not know how your "rules" apply.
.
I know you just follow the nonsense of "from illyrian " like most, due to nationalistic propganda, ...........there is no genetic, linguistic or historical proof that will ever be accepted by you..........the ****** are the ones here spinning these fabrications..........it is very clear, if you want to be illyrians, you must claim also to be non balkan people from noricum because that is where history first notes the illyrians, that is where history notes the celtic-illyrian merger to form halstatt culture...........if you want to believe your illyrian , then believe this, if you want to believe that albanians where always in the balkans and you where there in the early iron-age, bronze-age or before, then you cannot be illyrian ..........you cannot have it both ways .
For some history of people starts at different times ............you are one of these

For everyone that cares, you are dealing with this guy... Best course of action is ignoring him. He has been doing this for 12 years now.

With over 5000 posts per account regurgitating same manure, and 3 accounts that I know of, people can write books about your obsession.

 

[mount123]

Thank you for pointing this out. It is absolute insanity to me why the admins of this page won't ban this mentally ill person. He should get help.

 

[Salento]

If we start “Canceling” each other every time we have a disagreement, there won’t be anyone left to debate, … if you just want the contribution of Posters that agree with you, you will learn absolutely nothing. … and be respectful of my Haplogroup !

 

[torzio]

For the longest time I can not tell are you deficient or intentionally misleading people. The only thing I err about is giving attention to your off topic bullshit.

Then 20 branches down and 20, 000 years later you get R

That's just the facts disagreeing with you claim. Exhibit A - deceptive behavior.
But even if the facts agreed with you claim, just cause I can fly a plane, that does not make my uncle a pilot. If you even get that. Exhibit B - deficiency.
I am usually much nicer to people. But seeing as this is your 3nd account that I know of with over 5000 posts, mainly throwing manure in unrelated threads, being a contrarian with anything Albanian: examples - sile (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/29587-Sile) or zanipolo(https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/28889-zanipolo).
Just like a snake changes skin you change accounts, then regurgitate BS under new names every couple of years. You can change your coat, but your dispositions are obvious. I do not give enough of a f to go find all the nonsensical BS you have said over the years on Albanians, or how you have gone out of your way with your obsession to denigrate, undermine, and siderail any scientific discussions. Now please never mentioned my alias again.

what is Exhibit A -deceptive behaviour ..................what is it , the age difference ?.........the tree path is the same as per my simplified tree ................you can place a simplified Yfull tree from K ydna and it will give you the exact same tree as my simplified tree , go try it...................the deception is from you trying to fabricate false news even though the same result from yFull tree and mine are identical.

explain Exhibit B ? ............explain better, that's a random call.

next......the first account is my sons, who stopped very early , actually after I began my account .............both accounts became corrupted ..........this current account is now on the verge of corruption as I cannot get any emails for the last 8 months.......after many tries in my settings, one got though IIRC , but could not be opened .....................so maybe I will need to seek moderator aid as requested aid did nothing, members have tried to help recently, I thank them.

lastly .............."mentioning your alias" ............you mentioned mine as a cheap shot recently on another thread...........do not mention mine in any form and i will do the same to yours

 

[torzio]

an interesting article

https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283-research-j-ft103684-the-rare-sibling-of-j-ph1602/

 

[Riverman]

Note that the J-L283 cluster from the British paper plots close to an R1b from Western Hungary, a Middle Danubian from the LBA:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page12?p=638164&viewfull=1#post638164

This kind of proves the direct link between Bell Beaker derived Middle Danubian groups and the Illyrian J-L283 cluster. At least the more Northern ones, from the Southern groups we have very little. But I think this is a strong support for the theory of J-L283 spreading with the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture, after the clan became part of a wider network from the Alpine-Danubian zone. We now have more and more R1b samples here and there in the contact zone to prove it. For some unknown reason, it just seems these R1b carriers had no such big founder effect, but this shouldn't surprise us, because J-L283 has now a different distribution too and being replaced in much of its former core areas, while expanding into others.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Note that the J-L283 cluster from the British paper plots close to an R1b from Western Hungary, a Middle Danubian from the LBA:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page12?p=638164&viewfull=1#post638164

This kind of proves the direct link between Bell Beaker derived Middle Danubian groups and the Illyrian J-L283 cluster. At least the more Northern ones, from the Southern groups we have very little. But I think this is a strong support for the theory of J-L283 spreading with the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture, after the clan became part of a wider network from the Alpine-Danubian zone. We now have more and more R1b samples here and there in the contact zone to prove it. For some unknown reason, it just seems these R1b carriers had no such big founder effect, but this shouldn't surprise us, because J-L283 has now a different distribution too and being replaced in much of its former core areas, while expanding into others.

I keep not bookmarking very interesting posts and being unable to quote them.

We have L283 and R1b-Z2103 now in 2-3 sites together? Maybe more. Why I wish I bookmarked the various blogs.
One was in Maros with both of them having a Yamnaya shift as opposed to the Tollense like locals. The other one in the Danubian Limes paper. Now cant recall, but I think the Daunians also had Z2103, but don't quote me on it, cant recall.

Also from the rumored samples from N. Albania, the L283 was supposedly/preliminary LBAto IA, while the R1b was a bit older IIRC, have to re read some messages. The thing is I'm quite sure the R1b was not Z2103.

Will edit this message as soon as I find out.

It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.

This R1b is quite interesting. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/

 

[Riverman]

I keep not bookmarking very interesting posts and being unable to quote them.

We have L283 and R1b-Z2103 now in 2-3 sites together?

Timing is everything, because all big three from the Balkans (E-V13, J-L283, R-Z2103) might have been present earlier, even in the same context. But now its rather about how they expanded at the expense of other groups from the MBA to IA. This needs to be explained and its now a pretty sure case that J-L283 did join the Bell Beaker derived Tumulus culture network while E-V13 did join Eastern Urnfield/Channelled Ware. How, where and when exactly is for both not so sure, but they did, because they spread with these cultural horizons.
R-Z2103 is known from Yamnaya expansions, including those into Pannonia and Bulgaria, but also as a potential Greco-Armenian candidate. What else they might have been in the crucial period of the MBA-IA is up to debate.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Timing is everything, because all big three from the Balkans (E-V13, J-L283, R-Z2103) might have been present earlier, even in the same context. But now its rather about how they expanded at the expense of other groups from the MBA to IA. This needs to be explained and its now a pretty sure case that J-L283 did join the Bell Beaker derived Tumulus culture network while E-V13 did join Eastern Urnfield/Channelled Ware. How, where and when exactly is for both not so sure, but they did, because they spread with these cultural horizons.
R-Z2103 is known from Yamnaya expansions, including those into Pannonia and Bulgaria, but also as a potential Greco-Armenian candidate. What else they might have been in the crucial period of the MBA-IA is up to debate.

I cant wait for the Lazaridis paper tbh.

Two things I wonder, will we find L283 in Thracian territory?
Will we find E-V13 from LBA to IA around Hungary and Austria.
I think both scenarios should be plausible. And if we do not find them, then for sure some arbitrary division might have been the case, as in your proposed MDTC and EU/CW one.

But yeah, the Lazaridis paper I think, along with the Troy and Bulgaria ones will shake a lot up.

Edit: Also I do believe people are sleeping on J2a. From what I understand this is the best candidate of Myceneans? Could be wrong. But I got a hunch this haplogroup does not receive the attention it deserves.