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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #1351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Ok, thanks so much for keeping us in the loop, Archetype! Pretty cool, unexpected development with this NEO281 guy. I’ve been fixating on the Southern Arc paper (who the hell knows when that thing comes out) and the other big paper on the Caucasus for so long now, this one kind of snuck up out of nowhere.
    These are the best sorts of papers. Like the Daunian paper etc, out of nowhere full of surprises*.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Not quite sure, but it looks like it. Southern Arch paper or let's say one of the three split papers from Southern Arch. They split because probably it was too huge of a paper and different contexts to include in a single release.
    This is what happened to the Arch paper
    3 papers now it seems


    PS: Caucasus paper? That ought to be interesting!
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    These are the best sorts of papers. Like the Daunian paper etc, out of nowhere full of surprises*.



    This is what happened to the Arch paper
    3 papers now it seems


    PS: Caucasus paper? That ought to be interesting!
    This is the other study from the Caucasus. It has 68 samples spanning 20 different archaeological cultures:

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/10/coming-soon.html

    Henry Shephard, one of the authors of the Southern Arc study (or 3 separate studies now), publishes his resume online for all to see. One thing that seemed weird was that his resume originally listed the journal Science as the publisher. Well, now it shows the journal Nature, not Science. I think they’re 2 different journals. Just seemed interesting that the journal changed. He’s kind of the NW Black Sea expert. I believe he’s from Moldova. Archaeology and linguistics seem to be his specialties. If they’re reworking the entire study and divvying it up into 3 sections, that might explain the delay.

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    What's going on with that J2b sample? I'm hearing they mislabelled it or something?

    I think if this is found in those HGs it will pretty much prove J2b2-L283 was a minor lineage in the Indo-European invasions taken from CH-shifted Hunter Gatherers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    What's going on with that J2b sample? I'm hearing they mislabelled it or something?

    I think if this is found in those HGs it will pretty much prove J2b2-L283 was a minor lineage in the Indo-European invasions taken from CH-shifted Hunter Gatherers.
    J2b2-L283 moved from Southern Caucasus to Northern Caucasus, initially arising likely within Late Neolithic Shulaveri-Shomu culture and then probably Leyla-tepe and similar cultures which expanded on Northern Caucasus during Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age. After that, it's up to speculation how it got IE-zed, whether from North Caucasus or South/Western Central Europe. The Illyrian language per Matzinger and some German linguists can be easily classified as an offshot of Bell Beaker since it is considered as East Alpine Block of languages, it would make sense considering the autosomal affinities of so far Illyrians. So the IE-zation in South/West Central Europe is safe to go, prior to that what language they spoke whether a Yamnaya IE or a North Caucasus-like language, who knows. The Bell Beaker contact in South/Western Central Europe would make sense in a timeline between 2500-1500 B.C approximately.
    Last edited by Hawk; 09-05-22 at 17:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    What's going on with that J2b sample? I'm hearing they mislabelled it or something?
    I think if this is found in those HGs it will pretty much prove J2b2-L283 was a minor lineage in the Indo-European invasions taken from CH-shifted Hunter Gatherers.
    The paper states this is a new sample from Kotias Klde that's J2b. At this point, it's only a suspicion that he may be J2a, as the dating, site, mtDNA, is exactly the same as previously published KK1 which is J2a-Y12379. So it's possible he is some paternal relative of the J2a sample and the software got a false positive for a J2b SNP or something like that. The coordinates are reported a few miles apart but they should be in the same general site, as Kotias Klde cave doesn't cover an area spanning a few miles.

    We've emailed the authors to see if they can provide further clarification, but so far no response. The reported coverage at 3.6x is very good for an ancient sample, even better than NEO806 (the "early Messapian"). So we will know for sure what he is once the raw data are published, along with the deeper classification. I'm personally thinking this is a new J2b sample, perhaps even an "early" M241>L283, but we'll see..
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    The paper states this is a new sample from Kotias Klde that's J2b. At this point, it's only a suspicion that he may be J2a, as the dating, site, mtDNA, is exactly the same as previously published KK1 which is J2a-Y12379. So it's possible he is some paternal relative of the J2a sample and the software got a false positive for a J2b SNP or something like that. The coordinates are reported a few miles apart but they should be in the same general site, as Kotias Klde cave doesn't cover an area spanning a few miles.
    We've emailed the authors to see if they can provide further clarification, but so far no response. The reported coverage at 3.6x is very good for an ancient sample, even better than NEO806 (the "early Messapian"). So we will know for sure what he is once the raw data are published, along with the deeper classification. I'm personally thinking this is a new J2b sample, perhaps even an "early" M241>L283, but we'll see..
    in post # 1315 you stated he ( this sample ) was a Peucetian ,the pot makers .................you now refer him to Messapian .................which is it ?
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    in post # 1315 you stated he ( this sample ) was a Peucetian ,the pot makers .................you now refer him to Messapian .................which is it ?
    In the post you quoted, I simply refered to him as an early Messapian, as in early Iapygian, without specifying a tribal region. See:

    "Some ancient sources treat Iapygians and Messapians as synonymous, and several writers of the Roman period referred to them as Apuli in the north, Poediculi in the centre, and Sallentini or Calabri in the south."
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapygians

    "Messapic (/mɛˈsæpɪk, mə-, -ˈseɪ-/; also known as Messapian; or as Iapygian) is an extinct Indo-European language of the southeastern Italian Peninsula, once spoken in Apulia by the Iapygian peoples of the region: the Calabri and Salentini (known collectively as the Messapii), the Peucetians and the Daunians."
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language



    In the original post, I only suspected he would be closer to the Paucetian tribal region, but it's hard to say based on the location as he seems to be in between. The paper doesn't explicitly mention his tribal region.

  8. #1358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    In the post you quoted, I simply refered to him as an early Messapian, as in early Iapygian, without specifying a tribal region. See:
    "Some ancient sources treat Iapygians and Messapians as synonymous, and several writers of the Roman period referred to them as Apuli in the north, Poediculi in the centre, and Sallentini or Calabri in the south."
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapygians
    "Messapic (/mɛˈsæpɪk, mə-, -ˈseɪ-/; also known as Messapian; or as Iapygian) is an extinct Indo-European language of the southeastern Italian Peninsula, once spoken in Apulia by the Iapygian peoples of the region: the Calabri and Salentini (known collectively as the Messapii), the Peucetians and the Daunians."
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language

    In the original post, I only suspected he would be closer to the Paucetian tribal region, but it's hard to say based on the location as he seems to be in between. The paper doesn't explicitly mention his tribal region.
    ok
    "In the time of Strabo the territory occupied by the former Peuceti lay on the mule-track that was the only connection between Brindisi and Benevento.[7] Pre-Roman ceramic evidence justifies Strabo's classification of Daunii, Peucetii and Messapii, who were all speakers of the Messapian language. There were twelve tribal proto-statelets among the Peucetii, one of which is represented by modern Altamura.


    http://www.asciatopo.altervista.org/apulia.html

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    I hear that J2b got confirmed? This means that J2B2-L283 was a minor-IE lineage then. If someone can elaborate what specific clade it was that'd be great.

    Even in 23andme they talk about this being a "farmer lineage" lol. They think only R is IE. I think pretty much all Y-DNA in Europe today is Indo-European. J2B2 down, now EV13 to prove. G/T died out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I hear that J2b got confirmed? This means that J2B2-L283 was a minor-IE lineage then. If someone can elaborate what specific clade it was that'd be great.

    Even in 23andme they talk about this being a "farmer lineage" lol. They think only R is IE. I think pretty much all Y-DNA in Europe today is Indo-European. J2B2 down, now EV13 to prove. G/T died out.

    it means he went to Italy from modern Croatian lands like the other Daunians

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    it means he went to Italy from modern Croatian lands like the other Daunians
    What? I'm talking about the Caucaus HG that gave rise to IE people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    What? I'm talking about the Caucaus HG that gave rise to IE people.
    He’s a J2b, but not J2b L283. He belongs to an older, upstream branch. See below.

    Per Trojet over at AG:

    “The authors were nice enough to respond to an inquiry with regards to NEO281, 7773 BC, Kotias Klde, Georgia. They confirmed he is indeed Y haplogroup J2b, and more specifically should split YFull's current J2b-Z1825 level (ISOGG's J2b2-Z1827 branch).”




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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    He’s a J2b, but not J2b L283. He belongs to an older, upstream branch. See below.

    Per Trojet over at AG:

    “The authors were nice enough to respond to an inquiry with regards to NEO281, 7773 BC, Kotias Klde, Georgia. They confirmed he is indeed Y haplogroup J2b, and more specifically should split YFull's current J2b-Z1825 level (ISOGG's J2b2-Z1827 branch).”

    Considering they appear in the Maros culture with R-Z2103, what speaks against them travelling with Yamnaya to Pannonia?

  14. #1364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Considering they appear in the Maros culture with R-Z2103, what speaks against them travelling with Yamnaya to Pannonia?
    Wait this specific branch appears in Maros? Or are you referring to L283 in general?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Wait this specific branch appears in Maros? Or are you referring to L283 in general?
    Only in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Only in general.
    Have to agree the hypothesis you mentioned is very attractive.
    The fact that J, J2a and J2b have been found in one cave is quite a coincidence. Means a quite diversified J based population was in the area. It remains to be seen if L283 was part of the HG group contributing to Steppe though, since so far very circumstantial evidence to back it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Have to agree the hypothesis you mentioned is very attractive.
    The fact that J, J2a and J2b have been found in one cave is quite a coincidence. Means a quite diversified J based population was in the area. It remains to be seen if L283 was part of the HG group contributing to Steppe though, since so far very circumstantial evidence to back it up.
    The real steppe mixture came up in the Lower Don area and I think J-/CHG-heavy colonists moved up the Black Sea as fairly advanced fishers, beginning pastoralists, especially with ovicaprids. There they came into close contact with local foragers of Piemont steppe and Don region. This resulted in the mixture and the local foragers turned out dominant, which is why soon later most were R1+. But J should have been dominant in the early Caucasian colonists and it should have stayed relevant in the Lower Don Culture still. There is no reason it couldn't have been a steppe minority lineage in some areas.
    Its also possible it was spread later from e.g. Maykop.

    But of course, a completely different Southern route with other e.g. Anatolian Neolithic colonists is thinkable too, but at this point simply less likely imho.

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    Caucasus paper hopefully will shed light on the issue. I think statistically speaking, as plausible as your theory seems, a complete Y replacement based on economic specialization is quite unlikely. As economic equilibria would have swung the tides before a complete replacement, leaving at least minimal Y signal for a population that would have contributed 50% of the autosomal.
    I think we are missing a big part of the puzzle, and hopefully new studies will point in the right direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Caucasus paper hopefully will shed light on the issue. I think statistically speaking, as plausible as your theory seems, a complete Y replacement based on economic specialization is quite unlikely. As economic equilibria would have swung the tides before a complete replacement, leaving at least minimal Y signal for a population that would have contributed 50% of the autosomal.
    I think we are missing a big part of the puzzle, and hopefully new studies will point in the right direction.
    These were founder effects among the PIE clans. We have no idea about how in detail the diversity in the Lower Don areas was before. Just think about the later founder effects in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Bell Beakers and other groups. Not just in the PIE sphere, also in Western and Central Europe among the GAC agro-pastoralists. Q was probably there as well but left not much of a mark on the PIE of later generations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    These were founder effects among the PIE clans. We have no idea about how in detail the diversity in the Lower Don areas was before. Just think about the later founder effects in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Bell Beakers and other groups. Not just in the PIE sphere, also in Western and Central Europe among the GAC agro-pastoralists. Q was probably there as well but left not much of a mark on the PIE of later generations.
    What do you think of this hypothesis.

    A middle phase population rich in EHG CHG autosomal makeup being the mediator for these Don populations. As a middle phase this would allow for founder effects etc diluting unipaternals way before it became the vehicle for CHG further north in Yamnaya / Steppe? This would imply the EHG CHG mix happend way earlier somewhere further south just north of the Caucasus Range, and this very mix going further north would later give rise to the Steppe pops?

    Got this idea reading some back and forths from Davidski in his comment section on one of the papers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    What do you think of this hypothesis.
    A middle phase population rich in EHG CHG autosomal makeup being the mediator for these Don populations. As a middle phase this would allow for founder effects etc diluting unipaternals way before it became the vehicle for CHG further north in Yamnaya / Steppe? This would imply the EHG CHG mix happend way earlier somewhere further south just north of the Caucasus Range, and this very mix going further north would later give rise to the Steppe pops?
    Got this idea reading some back and forths from Davidski in his comment section on one of the papers.
    The Lower Don was archaeologically a hotspot with influences and innovations reaching the area from different directions. It became a Demographie and cultural source region with important sites like R. yar.
    Whatever happened it being reflected in what happened there. That the Middle Don samples being similar to the Mariupol group, just somewhat different, speaks for itself as well.
    They moved upwards while mixing with local less CHG rich people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    He’s a J2b, but not J2b L283. He belongs to an older, upstream branch. See below.

    Per Trojet over at AG:

    “The authors were nice enough to respond to an inquiry with regards to NEO281, 7773 BC, Kotias Klde, Georgia. They confirmed he is indeed Y haplogroup J2b, and more specifically should split YFull's current J2b-Z1825 level (ISOGG's J2b2-Z1827 branch).”



    I am aware he is not L283, but we don't have R-L151 in the steppe either. It's simple inference. It'd be almost impossible to find the exact branch of these HGs that gave rise to L283 since it was a minor lineage. The question is finding his relatives.

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    Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

    R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
    R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

    R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
    R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
    R3544 Gardun, Croatia J-Z1043+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/


    The J2b-L283s from the paper above as of now.




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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

    R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
    R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

    R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
    R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
    R3544 Gardun, Croatia J-Z1043+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/


    The J2b-L283s from the paper above as of now.
    The Montenegrines show no overlap with Albanians, the others are in the same upstream clades, but no recent founders depending on the debth of the analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Montenegrines show no overlap with Albanians, the others are in the same upstream clades, but no recent founders depending on the debth of the analysis.

    In what sense do you mean overlap? As of clades? My mother's paternal side are part of the Korbi tribe whom you can find all the way from Kukes, Albania to Eastern Kosovo J2b-L283>Z597>Z631>Z1043>Y22894






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