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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #1376
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post

    In what sense do you mean overlap? As of clades? My mother's paternal side are part of the Korbi tribe whom you can find all the way from Kukes, Albania to Eastern Kosovo J2b-L283>Z597>Z631>Z1043>Y22894
    I mean these new rather Northern Illyrian subclade samples from Montenegro and that they don't have modern Albanian counterparts. Seem to be unrelated to modern Albanian patrilineages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I mean these new rather Northern Illyrian subclade samples from Montenegro and that they don't have modern Albanian counterparts. Seem to be unrelated to modern Albanian patrilineages.
    There is only one late antiquity sample from Montenegro: R3481, (~260 CE) Doclea, Montenegro which belongs to J2b-L283>>Z638>>Z631>Z1043.

    In the Balkans, this subclade is mostly found among Albanians, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting... (The other sample from Montenegro, J-CTS6190, is only Medieval, so not exactly "ancient").

    While a BCE sample would've been more significant, this is still a pretty significant find for J-Z631>Z1043. He is likely part of the Docleatae. User Aspurg may have been right after all when he proposed that J-Z631 may have undergone its demographic expansion as part of IA Glasinac-Mati cultural complex.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    There is only one late antiquity sample from Montenegro: R3481, (~260 CE) Doclea, Montenegro which belongs to J2b-L283>>Z638>>Z631>Z1043.
    In the Balkans, this subclade is mostly found among Albanians, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting... (The other sample from Montenegro, J-CTS6190, is only Medieval, so not exactly "ancient").
    While a BCE sample would've been more significant, this is still a pretty significant find for J-Z631>Z1043. He is likely part of the Docleatae. User Aspurg may have been right after all when he proposed that J-Z631 may have undergone its demographic expansion as part of IA Glasinac-Mati cultural complex.
    Not quite the grotta della mura moment, but I am pretty sure that Y pops up in my paternal grandmother family through one of her cousins.
    Now all I need is a G2-P15>L30>M406 from my maternal Y and I got a poker.
    It seems with ancient samples when it rains it pours. So I have quite high hope a lot more Albanian Y's will prove through ancient samples continuity in Illyrian>Albanian lands.

    Edited: It gets quite confusing when having three different Y subclades in your extended family just through your fathers cousins etc.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    So ancient J-L283 samples were found in tunisia I think at around 500BC but I don't think there has been ancient iberian J-L283 samples discovered.
    Does this imply that J-L283 did not arrive in spain until roman and phonecian berber migration through mercenaries or roman soldiers / colonist?
    Or perhaps ancient greek settlements also?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    So ancient J-L283 samples were found in tunisia I think at around 500BC but I don't think there has been ancient iberian J-L283 samples discovered.
    Does this imply that J-L283 did not arrive in spain until roman and phonecian berber migration through mercenaries or roman soldiers / colonist?
    Or perhaps ancient greek settlements also?
    J2b-L283 is unlikely a Phoenician/Berber marker, it has been found in Sardinia, and in North Africa it came from Italy, Greece, or the Balkans.

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    It does not take much effort to scroll through this thread to find answers or explanations to questions that might concern one.

    Quote from Trojet regarding your question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Three new samples have been added to the J2b-L283 ancient DNA map:







    Considering the timing and the location, NEO806 should be a Iapygian (Paucetian?) sample. J2b-L283 has been confirmed among the Daunians as well, though no deeper classification is available due to low coverage. This sample suggests that Iapygians carried at least some J-Z638 subclades, which is the predominant J2b-L283 branch among the Albanians.


    With regards to R11751 and R11753, considering the phylogeny of J-Z38240>PH1602 and since we have older J-Z38240 aDNA samples from modern Croatia, their more distant origin likely lies somewhere in the eastern Adriatic.
    Kerkouane, which is in the Tunisian coast, seems to have been a trade town: "Hardly any agriculture: this town lived for trade (with Phoenicia itself and the Greek world) and trades (stonemasons, purple painters, potters...). Still, several fishermen". https://www.livius.org/articles/place/kerkouane/

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    J2b-L283 is unlikely a Phoenician/Berber marker, it has been found in Sardinia, and in North Africa it came from Italy, Greece, or the Balkans.
    No but they used mercenaries. And some people may have been absorbed into the phonecian population after settlement.
    Also romans settled in north africa.

    Although J-L283 in general is not a common haplogroup. In relation to populations haplogroup make up.
    We know some north africans have european autosomal dna in their make up.
    Otherwise why did we find J-L283 in tunisia at 500 BC? We found 2 samples. Carthage was founded 1000BC. At around 7th century it became much more developed.

    We know have a turk with J-L283.
    We have two Ancient J-L283 samples
    We have ancient georgian and ancient armenian J-L283 samples. Yes we have ancient sardinian J-L283. I think they are corsican samples. But we dont have ancient french J-L283 samples or ancient german J-L283 samples. There is an ancient viking one strangely.
    We dont have ancient iberian J-L283 or british isle J-L283 samples i think.
    Im latin American. My ancestors name was Cotes. Its not a common spanish name but from my experience looking its more common in southern spain. Especially in anadalucia cadiz and nearby areas. But also south eastern spain. In france cotes is associated with languedoc which is different but an ancient greek colony was established nearby there called massalia.





    We also have a colombian that had ancestors that were middle eastern that came out J-L283 under the clade J-Y95770
    Under lebanese. Date of TMRCA is about TMRCA 2100 but to other european samples J-Y146401 is 2900 Tmrca YBP
    Lebanese are decendants of phonecians. So perhaps phonecians absorbed J-L283 although at low levels.

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    The Georgian sample is not J2b-L283. The Kerkouane samples' Y DNA and autosomal DNA are not native to North Africa. The Iron Age Sardinian samples are part of the Nuragic Civilization, so there is nothing "Corsican" about them. J2b-L283 is very common in Northern Albania, Malesia e Madhe, Kosovo and other albanophone regions other than that it is also present in some other areas of Europe.

    I have reported you since these repetitive non sense posts made by certain users are really annoying for us genuinely interested in the thread's topic and scientific evidence.

    I really hope that the moderators will put an end to these kind of accounts.

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    It's the usual bizarre claims by user Wanderer. At the time when we had I4331 from MBA Dalmatia as the only J2b-L283 aDNA sample, he even suggested he was a kidnapped kid from Georgia/Kura-Araxes culture, or something along those lines (can't seem to find the post).

    If you have some time to waste, you can read some of his old posts starting from page 7..

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    I wonder what happened to that French guy who obsessed about some J2-L283 clade being Celtic. Totally disappeared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    The Georgian sample is not J2b-L283. The Kerkouane samples' Y DNA and autosomal DNA are not native to North Africa. The Iron Age Sardinian samples are part of the Nuragic Civilization, so there is nothing "Corsican" about them. J2b-L283 is very common in Northern Albania, Malesia e Madhe, Kosovo and other albanophone regions other than that it is also present in some other areas of Europe.

    I have reported you since these repetitive non sense posts made by certain users are really annoying for us genuinely interested in the thread's topic and scientific evidence.

    I really hope that the moderators will put an end to these kind of accounts.
    No I am saying
    they were corsican samples tested for but I think they were concluded to be J-L283 but not enough markers or quality to test further downstream

    https://phylogeographer.com/insights...di-cristofaro/

    https://phylogeographer.com/iron-age...ouane-tunisia/


    J-L283 in that time is not native to north africa. No one said that. I said it migrated. Or else how could J-L283 exist outside the balkans? Or sardinia?
    The sardinian samples are dated to about 1000BC but about 900BC the phonecians are said to have arrived


    The spanish one there is not a ancient sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    It's the usual bizarre claims by user Wanderer. At the time when we had I4331 from MBA Dalmatia as the only J2b-L283 aDNA sample, he even suggested he was a kidnapped kid from Georgia/Kura-Araxes culture, or something along those lines 2: (can't seem to find the post).

    If you have some time to waste, you can read some of his old posts starting from page 7..
    Yes because it was only 1 sample from that area. We should have at least 2.
    In sardinia we have more than one.

    We have more than one ancient sample in Italy. Sardinia. Corsica.
    0 in spain. 2 in tunisia. We have more ancient samples in the caucus then we do in the croatia location for where we found a croatian sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    No but they used mercenaries. And some people may have been absorbed into the phonecian population after settlement.
    Also romans settled in north africa.

    Although J-L283 in general is not a common haplogroup. In relation to populations haplogroup make up.
    We know some north africans have european autosomal dna in their make up.
    Otherwise why did we find J-L283 in tunisia at 500 BC? We found 2 samples. Carthage was founded 1000BC. At around 7th century it became much more developed.

    We know have a turk with J-L283.
    We have two Ancient J-L283 samples
    We have ancient georgian and ancient armenian J-L283 samples. Yes we have ancient sardinian J-L283. I think they are corsican samples. But we dont have ancient french J-L283 samples or ancient german J-L283 samples. There is an ancient viking one strangely.
    We dont have ancient iberian J-L283 or british isle J-L283 samples i think.
    Im latin American. My ancestors name was Cotes. Its not a common spanish name but from my experience looking its more common in southern spain. Especially in anadalucia cadiz and nearby areas. But also south eastern spain. In france cotes is associated with languedoc which is different but an ancient greek colony was established nearby there called massalia.





    We also have a colombian that had ancestors that were middle eastern that came out J-L283 under the clade J-Y95770
    Under lebanese. Date of TMRCA is about TMRCA 2100 but to other european samples J-Y146401 is 2900 Tmrca YBP
    Lebanese are decendants of phonecians. So perhaps phonecians absorbed J-L283 although at low levels.

    The first decent map of I have seen in regards to Greek and Phoenician med. areas
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Yes because it was only 1 sample from that area. We should have at least 2.
    In sardinia we have more than one.

    We have more than one ancient sample in Italy. Sardinia. Corsica.
    0 in spain. 2 in tunisia. We have more ancient samples in the caucus then we do in the croatia location for where we found a croatian sample.
    I advice you to stop derailing this thread with your non evidential non sense.

    You have two hands, two eyes and can go through this thread for more information regarding the phylogeny of J2b-L283 for which you obviously have no idea about but somehow still post pseudo scientific stuff. You can find the link for the aDNA J2b-L283 map Trojet has provided too. You can also google by yourself the y full tree of J2b-L283 where all the numerous Iron Age Illyrian and MBA Dalmatian Posusje samples have been added.

    Am I clear enough? Now get off this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    If you have some time to waste, you can read some of his old posts starting from page 7..
    I did and I wish I never had

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I advice you to stop derailing this thread with your non evidential non sense.

    You have two hands, two eyes and can go through this thread for more information regarding the phylogeny of J2b-L283 for which you obviously have no idea about but somehow still post pseudo scientific stuff. You can find the link for the aDNA J2b-L283 map Trojet has provided too. You can also google by yourself the y full tree of J2b-L283 where all the numerous Iron Age Illyrian and MBA Dalmatian Posusje samples have been added.

    Am I clear enough? Now get off this thread.
    I merely gave historical context and showed evidence of J-L283 hailing of latin American origin but with lebanese ties and being related to an albanian and a indian christian., referencing the ancient samples found in tunisia at 500 BC. Which at the time WAS A PHONECIAN SETTLEMENT. but no ancient samples in spain
    No one is saying the majority of J2b-L283 went down this path. I am saying that some J2b-L283 probably was absorbed by phonecians and dispersed through phonecians after absorption. The majority of J2b-L283 remained in italy and the balkans with random dispersal in the gaulic and german regions.

    I suspect my J2b-L283 lineage was aborbed by phonecians and then into spain. Because I have 0 old worlder matches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    I merely gave historical context and showed evidence of J-L283 hailing of latin American origin but with lebanese ties and being related to an albanian and a indian christian., referencing the ancient samples found in tunisia at 500 BC. Which at the time WAS A PHONECIAN SETTLEMENT. but no ancient samples in spain
    No one is saying the majority of J2b-L283 went down this path. I am saying that some J2b-L283 probably was absorbed by phonecians and dispersed through phonecians after absorption. The majority of J2b-L283 remained in italy and the balkans with random dispersal in the gaulic and german regions.

    I suspect my J2b-L283 lineage was aborbed by phonecians and then into spain. Because I have 0 old worlder matches.
    The Kerkoune samples trace back their ultimate paternal origin to the East Adriatic where there are much older Iron Age Illyrian samples. The autosomal DNA of the Kerkouane samples too is not Middle Eastern or North African.

    You are not contributing to this thread other than posting non sense. For the sake of all of us genuinely interested in the thread's topic leave now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    The Kerkoune samples trace back their ultimate paternal origin to the East Adriatic where there are much older Iron Age Illyrian samples. The autosomal DNA of the Kerkouane samples too is not Middle Eastern or North African.

    You are not contributing to this thread other than posting non sense. For the sake of all of us genuinely interested in the thread's topic leave now.
    And it was still found where? At what time? When tunsia was carthage?
    Many goths didnt mix with romans. They would have gothic dna. Doesnt mean they werent in rome. Being used as soldiers. Living in the territories. Or even adopting roman customs.
    And we have a colombian and lebanese J-L283 decendants?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    I wonder what happened to that French guy who obsessed about some J2-L283 clade being Celtic. Totally disappeared.
    Some J2b-L283 may have been absorbed by celts. Romans were raiding and having their way.

    In herodotus book of histories i think he mentions some greeks joined celts and wandered off and became britons. But its just what herodotus said.
    Id have to look this up another time. I am not saying its 100 percent for sure true. But it is an interesting saying by herodotus in his book. I forget what tribe or people of greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I advice you to stop derailing this thread with your non evidential non sense.

    You have two hands, two eyes and can go through this thread for more information regarding the phylogeny of J2b-L283 for which you obviously have no idea about but somehow still post pseudo scientific stuff. You can find the link for the aDNA J2b-L283 map Trojet has provided too. You can also google by yourself the y full tree of J2b-L283 where all the numerous Iron Age Illyrian and MBA Dalmatian Posusje samples have been added.

    Am I clear enough? Now get off this thread.
    Ok looking over y full theres more adriatic samples before from when i had looked at this years ago. So J-L283 is adriatic with sardinians that likely were mercenaries into carthage phonecia. That would explain why we have ancient tunisian J-L283 and lebanese J-L283.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Ok looking over y full theres more adriatic samples before from when i had looked at this years ago. So J-L283 is adriatic with sardinians that likely were mercenaries into carthage phonecia. That would explain why we have ancient tunisian J-L283 and lebanese J-L283.
    I think some old branches from the Balkans came with Sea Peoples. There are a couple, including for E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think some old branches from the Balkans came with Sea Peoples. There are a couple, including for E-V13.
    Its always possible. I saw a bit about illyrians and they were sea fearing people and many were pirates. Plus many J-L283 landed in sardinia which is where one of the sea peoples were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    What's going on with that J2b sample? I'm hearing they mislabelled it or something?
    I think if this is found in those HGs it will pretty much prove J2b2-L283 was a minor lineage in the Indo-European invasions taken from CH-shifted Hunter Gatherers.
    So far ancient j2b l283 has yet to be found alongside any r1b so very unlikely. If proto illyrians were exclusively j2b l283 it looks likely that they may have not spoken an indo european language initially
    Last edited by TaktikatEMalet; 28-05-22 at 12:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    So far ancient j2b l283 has yet to be found alongside any r1b so very unlikely. If proto illyrians were exclusively j2b l283 it looks likely that they may have not spoken an indo european language initially
    Here you go. Have a read and feel free to report back regarding your assertion that ancient J-L283 and R-Z2103 or R-M269 have never been buried alongside one another. Pay particular close attention to Mokrin.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...498v1.full.pdf

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.18.101337v1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Here you go. Have a read and feel free to report back regarding your assertion that ancient J-L283 and R-Z2103 or R-M269 have never been buried alongside one another. Pay particular close attention to Mokrin.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...498v1.full.pdf
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.18.101337v1
    This is from 2000BC and why are you ignoring all the i2a found in mokrin (4x) which looked to carry elite items but bringing up the 1 j2b?

    Anyway, what does mokrin being mostly i2a and r1b have to do with j2b l283 being found (10+) in croatia and italy + north africa but never alongside any r1b? Doesnt this mean the j2b l283 wiped out the mokrin r1b/i2a in those regions or was pushed back by the mokrin r1b/i2a to the coast?

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