J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Archetype0ne]

New Avar/Hungarian/Panonian samples. Looks like Albanians are most closely related to Panonian Illyrians than Croatian/Slovenian Illyrians. Which is weird because Panonians were more northern... (Although they allied with the Delmetae) They had tons of EV-13 and J2B2/Z638.

There are 3 J2B2-L283 samples, 2 of them fall under the "southern" Z638. Worth noting these are not branches ancestral to Albanians, but are closely related. As per Kelmendasi on Anthrogenica

Three J2b-L283 samples have been confirmed:

1) ALTper77; Early-Middle Avar (620-675 CE); J2b-Y21878* (xY37121)

2) VPBper307; Late Avar Elite (ninth century CE); J2b-Z595* (xAM00228, YP155)

3) SPper2; Conquering Hungarian Elite (tenth century CE); J2b-Z1297* (xCTS1317, Y27523)

Main thing from this:

Z638 is the more southern one so far, but I don't know if it mutated in Albania/Montenegro. It probably mutated in Central Europe 4000 years ago. Northern and Southern Illyrians split before migrating to the Balkans.

That Early Avar is my clade.

Also I wonder how did that Bronze Age Croatian L283 made itself a Conquering Hungarian Elite ?

 

[Ghurier]

Z638 is the more southern one so far, but I don't know if it mutated in Albania/Montenegro. It probably mutated in Central Europe 4000 years ago. Northern and Southern Illyrians split before migrating to the Balkans.

You take some risks saying this ... but you are likely on the good track.

Diversification times of Z597 and Z638 match very well with Bell-Beaker time-frame.
It is very likely that they were around eastern Alps by 2500-2000 BCE. And they could have been around this place since ~3000 BCE.

There are 3 J2B2-L283 samples, 2 of them fall under the "southern" Z638. Worth noting these are not branches ancestral to Albanians, but are closely related. As per Kelmendasi on Anthrogenica

You identified the key element, they are not the same clades as the one found in the south (neither ancestral nor descendant).
Z638 have 2 diversity centers, one in central Europe and one around Albania.
This two diversity center are nearly mutually exclusive. It indicates that a large scale displacement during roman times is a very bad model to explain that (such model would imply heavily correlated diversity centers).

Likely from 3000 to 2000 BCE the Z597 and Z638 were around Eastern Alps.
Then, by 1700 or a bit before, some Z638 branches diffused south toward South-western Blakans, some likely went in Italy, others stayed home.

This model fits all main probes:
-Modern diveristy (including time dependant clustering) ? Checked
-Diversification history compared to major cultural events ? Checked
-Ancient samples ? Checked (not a single one needing stretching or weird combo of events)

It is the only model to my knowledge able to explain all these probes.
By solving the Y15058 diffusion question Patterson et al. 2021 samples helped a lot in refinning this model.

 

[enter_tain]

You take some risks saying this ... but you are likely on the good track.

Diversification times of Z597 and Z638 match very well with Bell-Beaker time-frame.
It is very likely that they were around eastern Alps by 2500-2000 BCE. And they could have been around this place since ~3000 BCE.



You identified the key element, they are not the same clades as the one found in the south (neither ancestral nor descendant).
Z638 have 2 diversity centers, one in central Europe and one around Albania.
This two diversity center are nearly mutually exclusive. It indicates that a large scale displacement during roman times is a very bad model to explain that (such model would imply heavily correlated diversity centers).

Likely from 3000 to 2000 BCE the Z597 and Z638 were around Eastern Alps.
Then, by 1700 or a bit before, some Z638 branches diffused south toward South-western Blakans, some likely went in Italy, others stayed home.

This model fits all main probes:
-Modern diveristy (including time dependant clustering) ? Checked
-Diversification history compared to major cultural events ? Checked
-Ancient samples ? Checked (not a single one needing stretching or weird combo of events)

It is the only model to my knowledge able to explain all these probes.
By solving the Y15058 diffusion question Patterson et al. 2021 samples helped a lot in refinning this model.

Usually when you have two poles that are the same and the middle is different, it usually means the entire region used to be 1 thing, and the middle section is a new invader.

It seems like Z638 is the "bigger"/wider J2B2-L283 clade, the Croatian samples are a minority within the J2B2-L283 family.

 

[Ghurier]

Usually when you have two poles that are the same and the middle is different, it usually means the entire region used to be 1 thing, and the middle section is a new invader.

Totally agree with you on that in a context of a millitary conquest.
However, there is still possibilities of more "peacefull" migrations, that won't necessessarly produce such pattern.

But in the framework you propose here:
A possbility could involve an "early" dispersion of Z638 on a large north-south area around ~2200 BCE with Y15058 being left behind around Eastern Alps that just "replaced" Z638 in western Balkans through its 1800-1700 BCE big founding effect.
Bell-beaker influence area for sure give merit to such hypothesis.
Most of the Z597s subclades appear to have been affected by a 1800-1700 BCE event to some extent, but for Z638s it is nothing like Y15058.
Maybe it is a hint that Z638s were the "invaded" and Y15058 the "invaders".

It seems like Z638 is the "bigger"/wider J2B2-L283 clade, the Croatian samples are a minority within the J2B2-L283 family.

It strongly depends "when" we are looking at.
For instance, around 1500 BCE, considering known modern surviving clades we have 11 J-Y15058 branches vs 15 for J-Z638.
They look fairly "even" at that time.
Then indeed, around 2000 BCE, only 1 J-Y15058 branch against 9 for J-Z638.
Which could go in the direction of Y15058 expanding "in the middle" of J-Z638 territory.

The 1800-1700 BCE diversification affecting a lot of Z597 sub-clades is a good argument to say that all those clades where involved in the same large scale cultural event. We see the same kind of thing happenning around 1300-1200 BCE (this one is well known).

It sounds like a reasonable possibility considering what we know of documented cultural influences, diversity centers, and ancient samples.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

I also noticed that some modern Croats and Bosnians have some Illyrian Y-DNA and it actually hasn't migrated very far from 2000 years ago.

If only j-l283 is illyrian (which is complete nonsense by the way) - croatians have just 3% illyrian dna today, i am sure they would be happy to hear that....

 

[Aspurg]

I can prove per archeological (and autosomal) records that so far 12 our of 20 Avar E-V13 are of Byzantine origin, including one Greek/East Balkan clade in one (likely two more) sample. Also in other hg's.

In general these samples in auDNA Core1 cluster are not natives, and same should go for Core2 as well. Non-Byzantine immigrant natives seem to begin at Core3.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I can prove per archeological (and autosomal) records that so far 12 our of 20 Avar E-V13 are of Byzantine origin, including one Greek/East Balkan clade in one (likely two more) sample. Also in other hg's.

In general these samples in auDNA Core1 cluster are not natives, and same should go for Core2 as well. Non-Byzantine immigrant natives seem to begin at Core3.

My first suspicion as well was Romanoi / Romans of some sort. Would be interesting to read your reasoning.

 

[Aspurg]

My first suspicion as well was Romanoi / Romans of some sort. Would be interesting to read your reasoning.

Some are clearly Romanoi (I guess more appropriate as "Byzantines" didn't exist back then) based on such material with them (and their very Southern auDNA often too). Also some burial practices. And there is also a clear matchup of some of these sites with certain (even high level) Byzantine equipment. It used to be speculated this was just something Avars copied. But now that this matches totally some of these V13 heavy/Southern finds it is quite clear they didn't just "copy" this..

There is even one East Balkan/Greek clade involved. E-A10158, distantly related to Berisha's. It is found in a number of Romanians too.

It also has one Hungarian around 2200 ybp away from the Greek..

 

[Trojet]

• The J-Y12878 sample is mostly on the autosomal cluster EU_Core1. So this one does appear to have more of a "southern" autosomal profile.

• The J-Z1297 sample is mostly EU_Core3, so he may be "native" to the Pannonian plain for some time.

• The J-L283 (xZ627) sample is on the "Avar_cline". Interestingly, they report some additional admixtures: 26-42% EU_Core, 45-57% lXio8, 2-21% Scytho-Iranian.

Since he is Z627- and comes from western Hungary, he is possibly J-L283* and related to the modern Hungarian J-L283* from Vas, Hungary. So considering the admixture and the rare branching, I wonder if this lineage represents some "remnant" L283 further east, that was later picked up by the Avars and brought to western Hungary/CE at a much later time period than the rest of L283>Z622.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Some are clearly Romanoi (I guess more appropriate as "Byzantines" didn't exist back then) based on such material with them (and their very Southern auDNA often too). Also some burial practices. And there is also a clear matchup of some of these sites with certain (even high level) Byzantine equipment. It used to be speculated this was just something Avars copied. But now that this matches totally some of these V13 heavy/Southern finds it is quite clear they didn't just "copy" this..

There is even one East Balkan/Greek clade involved. E-A10158, distantly related to Berisha's. It is found in a number of Romanians too.

It also has one Hungarian around 2200 ybp away from the Greek..

You might be familiar with this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture


It seems the Avars had some sort of symbiotic relation with local / fort Romans, where in exchange for goods they let them prosper (thing that seems to not have been the case with Franks later on, or maybe the Romans got wiped in between). Really interesting considering what one is lead to believe about Avars, it seems these folks knew good business. The fact that E-V13 has such boom in diverse locations during the Middle and Late Avar period certainly does not depict razing savages ruling the area.

 

[Ghurier]

I can prove per archeological (and autosomal) records that so far 12 our of 20 Avar E-V13 are of Byzantine origin, including one Greek/East Balkan clade in one (likely two more) sample. Also in other hg's.

What is saying autosoamal DNA of the three J-L283 (including 2 Z638) that are in the same paper ?
They are fairly late, but it is still an interesting piece of information.

 

[Archetype0ne]

• The J-Y12878 sample is mostly on the autosomal cluster EU_Core1. So this one does appear to have more of a "southern" autosomal profile.
• The J-Z1297 sample is mostly EU_Core3, so he may be "native" to the Pannonian plain for some time.
• The J-L283 (xZ627) sample is on the "Avar_cline". Interestingly, they report some additional admixtures: 26-42% EU_Core, 45-57% lXio8, 2-21% Scytho-Iranian.
Since he is Z627-, and comes from western Hungary, he is quite possibly J-L283* and may be related to the modern Hungarian J-L283* from Vas, Hungary. So considering the admixture and the rare branching, I wonder if this lineage represents some "remnant" L283 further east, that was later picked up by the Avars and brought to western Hungary/CE at a much later time period than the rest of L283>Z622.

Interesting. So the guy sharing my clade might have been an individual of South European origin that moved further north during Early Avar times. It is either that, or Pannonia had Southern European genetics, which I find less likely.

The Z627- is quite interesting indeed. If it turns out to be L283* and with that autosomal profile, especially given his status he could fit the scenario you propose.

 

[Trojet]

Interesting. So the guy sharing my clade might have been an individual of South European origin that moved further north during Early Avar times. It is either that, or Pannonia had Southern European genetics, which I find less likely.

Exactly! Therefore, he may have moved further north during the Roman period. Let's see if we'll get further clues once the raw data is published with more autosomal analysis and possibly deeper subclade classification, as the only thing we know currently is he is Y37121-. Everything else downstream of J-Y21878 is open.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Since I am out of upvotes. Thanks Trojet.

 

[Aspurg]

You might be familiar with this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture


It seems the Avars had some sort of symbiotic relation with local / fort Romans, where in exchange for goods they let them prosper (thing that seems to not have been the case with Franks later on, or maybe the Romans got wiped in between). Really interesting considering what one is lead to believe about Avars, it seems these folks knew good business. The fact that E-V13 has such boom in diverse locations during the Middle and Late Avar period certainly does not depict razing savages ruling the area.

Well Avars themselves were in decline after the 626. (and some of these Romanoi should descend of those events), so I guess various things happened on their borders with the East Rome. And for some of these Romans I think it is likely they voluntarily joined the Avar ranks out of simple opportunism.

Ofc Keszthely culture is there and quite possibly some of those Szolad samples might be some representation of them.

 

[enter_tain]

Well Avars themselves were in decline after the 626. (and some of these Romanoi should descend of those events), so I guess various things happened on their borders with the East Rome. And for some of these Romans I think it is likely they voluntarily joined the Avar ranks out of simple opportunism.

Ofc Keszthely culture is there and quite possibly some of those Szolad samples might be some representation of them.

Here he is. The "EV-13" is Thracian guy Dude has no history of his own, so he has to bring Albanian history down.

I loved seeing all those EV-13 Thracian Avars, the Scythian Thracian, and Slavic Thracians.

 

[Hawk]

Some are clearly Romanoi (I guess more appropriate as "Byzantines" didn't exist back then) based on such material with them (and their very Southern auDNA often too). Also some burial practices. And there is also a clear matchup of some of these sites with certain (even high level) Byzantine equipment. It used to be speculated this was just something Avars copied. But now that this matches totally some of these V13 heavy/Southern finds it is quite clear they didn't just "copy" this..

There is even one East Balkan/Greek clade involved. E-A10158, distantly related to Berisha's. It is found in a number of Romanians too.

It also has one Hungarian around 2200 ybp away from the Greek..

Certainly this specific subclade is way more diverse in Central and Western Europe than in Balkans.

 

[Morina]

There are also Romanians and Aromanians who fall under the same J2b2-L283 subclades as Albanians and even some R1b-BY611 from what I have seen. I am not sure of their tmrca but It's like saying that this haplogroup was also from the East Balkans when I have already demonstrated that the Vlachs are most likely descendants from the West/Central Balkans where you can still find some of their toponyms. And the branches have been found in ancient samples from the Western Balkans. If you want to prove that the Romanian language originated in Romania then be my guess. Come with some compelling evidence. How about the fact that Romania was almost never under Roman occupation for most of it's history and has probably been inhabited by Hungarians and other groups of people since 900 AD ? The Vlach homeland stretched from Western/Central Balkans and as East as Eastern Serbia and Western Bulgaria but that was about as close as it gets to a Thracian/Dacian homeland.


Ayway here is a link to the Rrenjet project rrenjet.com/statistikat/ which shows the results of all the regions. And we can even see a decent amount of I2a1b, R1a and I1 in some Albanian regions, although it could also be that the samples are low for these specific regions as when you count the country all together it's not as high. There is no shame in it. It shows our ancestors had the ability to assimilate others.

 

[Aspurg]

Here he is. The "EV-13" is Thracian guy Dude has no history of his own, so he has to bring Albanian history down.

I loved seeing all those EV-13 Thracian Avars, the Scythian Thracian, and Slavic Thracians.

Did I ask you anything? Your worthless opinion was not solicited. I think have plenty of history for the standards of an average family/brotherhood.

Yes E-V13 = Thracian , set in stone. It may be affiliated with other things but this one is first by a long way.

Romanian Ceausescu made history is already in shambles, so why should Enver Hoxha's history be any different? proto-Romanians crossed Danube en masse in 12th century AD. Why couldn't proto-Albanian shepherds also have migrated from Central Balkans from where Romanians do come from, and as do Albanians based on links with proto-Romanians. Avars migrated from East Asia, Hungarians from Central Asia. Vast majority of Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia come from Eastern Herzegovina, Stari Vlah etc..

Besides who found out affinities of J-L283 samples, me.. And I know all about those new samples.. Who, what, where, why...

 

[Illyria]

I wonder if they'll find an ancient E-V13 sample from the South Western Balkans, matching an Albanian branch. We have E-V13 Thracians, Scythians, Avars, etc, so I don't think it would be surprising if some E-V13 became incorporated into the Illyrian sphere, early on.

Same with Greece and Italy, I'm sure with more samples in the future, we'll see which branches of E-V13 is Dorian, or Thracian, or Illyrian, Arvanite, etc

It seems E-V13 branched off in many directions in antiquity, contributing a minor or major role in various ethnic groups, given its modern spread and frequency, while J2b2 was more confined to the West, while today it's more confined to the South-West Balkans, only popping up in negligible amounts elsewhere.