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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Wasnt there over 400 samples and only 1 j-l283 found among these celts?
    R-u152 is fairly common yet j-l283 is super rare in western/celtic europe - you can clearly see that only reason there was 2 samples together in novo mesto is because it was a border zone between the 2 cultures, further south where many j-l283 have been found r1b has been completely absent so far
    They had about 3-4 samples from this group in particular, and it was J-L283, and the group being connected to those J-L283 dominated along the Adriatic and the R-L2 dominated in the Alpine-Middle Danubian sphere. So its a clar link, fused group, which was already evident from their archaeological characteristics which points towards a fusion of various influences and Illyrian as well as Upper-Middle Danubian/TC/R-L2 connections.
    The connection goes also to Italy and ther Upper Danube the same time for those key cultures for J-L283 (Cetina, Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje).

    Actually, J-L283 might have been coming with Yamnaya to Europe, as one of the few other lineages - but that's debatable. In any case, by the EBA-MBA, the time frame we're primarily talking about, they were IE, because we have a continuous development from the mentioned three Adriatic groups (some question Cetina, but I stll mention it as a candidate) into the Illyrian sphere. Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje got pressured and influenced by the Tumulus culture the same time, this created the Proto-Illyrians probably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    They had about 3-4 samples from this group in particular, and it was J-L283, and the group being connected to those J-L283 dominated along the Adriatic and the R-L2 dominated in the Alpine-Middle Danubian sphere. So its a clar link, fused group, which was already evident from their archaeological characteristics which points towards a fusion of various influences and Illyrian as well as Upper-Middle Danubian/TC/R-L2 connections.
    The connection goes also to Italy and ther Upper Danube the same time for those key cultures for J-L283 (Cetina, Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje).

    Actually, J-L283 might have been coming with Yamnaya to Europe, as one of the few other lineages - but that's debatable. In any case, by the EBA-MBA, the time frame we're primarily talking about, they were IE, because we have a continuous development from the mentioned three Adriatic groups (some question Cetina, but I stll mention it as a candidate) into the Illyrian sphere. Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje got pressured and influenced by the Tumulus culture the same time, this created the Proto-Illyrians probably.
    It isnt debateable as we have plenty yamnaya y dna and 0 j2b l283 have shown up.

    You are now suggesting that r1b u152 is illyrian, good grief

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    It isnt debateable as we have plenty yamnaya y dna and 0 j2b l283 have shown up.
    What's your proposed route? There is a good chance it came from the North Caucasus to the steppe and from there first into the Eastern Carpathian zone (Maros group, found together with R-Z2103 there), with some branches moving westwards and coming under the influence of Bell Beakers/Tumulus culture.

    You are now suggesting that r1b u152 is illyrian, good grief
    Its possible, but there are other possibilities as well. By the Iron Age R-U152 is most closely related to Celts, not doubt about that, but in the Beaker phase they surely could have branched in different groups, of which one could have been ancestral to Illyrian. Illyrian is very hard to pin down in the IE tree, so there are many possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    What's your proposed route? There is a good chance it came from the North Caucasus to the steppe and from there first into the Eastern Carpathian zone (Maros group, found together with R-Z2103 there), with some branches moving westwards and coming under the influence of Bell Beakers/Tumulus culture.
    Its possible, but there are other possibilities as well. By the Iron Age R-U152 is most closely related to Celts, not doubt about that, but in the Beaker phase they surely could have branched in different groups, of which one could have been ancestral to Illyrian. Illyrian is very hard to pin down in the IE tree, so there are many possibilities.
    It could have travelled from the sea across the adriatic or through anatolia but saying its from yamnaya when we have so many samples already yet 0 j2b l283 is ridiculous imo

    Once we get some bronze age samples from albania/montenegro i am pretty sure that r-z2103 will turn up instead of r-u152

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    It could have travelled from the sea across the adriatic or through anatolia but saying its from yamnaya when we have so many samples already yet 0 j2b l283 is ridiculous imo
    Once we get some bronze age samples from albania/montenegro i am pretty sure that r-z2103 will turn up instead of r-u152
    That doesn't matter most likely, because Illyrians and J-L283 seem rather related to the Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje, under the influence of Tumulus and Apennine culture. They rather expanded into Albania and Montenegro, where they indeed could have encountered R-Z2103 and E-V13 in the LBA.
    I think R-Z2103 spread in the EBA to MBA with Greco-Armenians/KMK/MCW and E-V13 in the LBA-EIA and later with Thracians/Gva/Channelled Ware.
    J-L283 seems to be the primary Illyrian marker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That doesn't matter most likely, because Illyrians and J-L283 seem rather related to the Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje, under the influence of Tumulus and Apennine culture. They rather expanded into Albania and Montenegro, where they indeed could have encountered R-Z2103 and E-V13 in the LBA.
    I think R-Z2103 spread in the EBA to MBA with Greco-Armenians/KMK/MCW and E-V13 in the LBA-EIA and later with Thracians/G�va/Channelled Ware.
    J-L283 seems to be the primary Illyrian marker.
    Like i said, ancient dna from south europe will reveal the answers. I am 100% certain r-u152 has nothing to do with illyrians

    As for a north to south migration, i doubt it unless you are talking about an expansion into greece. Most early illyrian kings are from the south not from slovenia or what you are suggesting illyrians came from - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...0of%20Syracuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Like i said, ancient dna from south europe will reveal the answers. I am 100% certain r-u152 has nothing to do with illyrians
    As for a north to south migration, i doubt it unless you are talking about an expansion into greece. Most early illyrian kings are from the south not from slovenia or what you are suggesting illyrians came from - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...0of%20Syracuse.
    There are three candidate cultures and all three went rather from North to South:
    - Cetina
    - Istrian hillfort (Castellieri culture)
    - Posusje/Dinaric culture

    at least as far as I understood it. The Istrian culture connects Posusje with the Apennine and TC cultural blocks. But I'm no expert on the matter, yet these cultures are imho in the focus for the J-L283 connection.

    For the interaction of Castelliere with Posusje/Dinaric on the one hand and Apennine culture on the other look at e.g.:
    https://www.academia.edu/44948137/Vr...h_century_BCE_

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    There are three candidate cultures and all three went rather from North to South:
    - Cetina
    - Istrian hillfort (Castellieri culture)
    - Posusje/Dinaric culture
    at least as far as I understood it. The Istrian culture connects Posusje with the Apennine and TC cultural blocks. But I'm no expert on the matter, yet these cultures are imho in the focus for the J-L283 connection.
    Cetina -

    "Cetina culture emerged early in the early Bronze Age on the eneolite substrate (Adriatic culture); its people belonged to the old Mediterranean population, which was partially Indoeuropeanized but was not Indo-European"

    This is possible for j-l283 as i dont believe they were originally indo european, r-z2103 would have given them the indo european tongue if they ended up becoming illyrians as illyrians spoke indo european

    Castellieri -

    "The ethnicity of the Castellieri civilization is uncertain, although it was most likely of Pre-Indo-European stock,[citation needed] coming from the sea. The first castellieri were indeed built along the Istrian coasts and present the same Megalithic appearance characterizing in the Mycenaean civilization at the time."

    This also goes along with my adriatic sea theory for j-l283 and being unrelated to indo europeans. However these castellieri remained until 3rd century BC when the romans took over and illyrians were speaking indo european by this point. They are clearly unrelated to illyrians who were a major force already for hundreds of years further south

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Cetina -
    "Cetina culture emerged early in the early Bronze Age on the eneolite substrate (Adriatic culture); its people belonged to the old Mediterranean population, which was partially Indoeuropeanized but was not Indo-European"
    This is possible for j-l283 as i dont believe they were originally indo european, r-z2103 would have given them the indo european tongue if they ended up becoming illyrians as illyrians spoke indo european
    Castellieri -
    "The ethnicity of the Castellieri civilization is uncertain, although it was most likely of Pre-Indo-European stock,[citation needed] coming from the sea. The first castellieri were indeed built along the Istrian coasts and present the same Megalithic appearance characterizing in the Mycenaean civilization at the time."
    This also goes along with my adriatic sea theory for j-l283 and being unrelated to indo europeans. However these castellieri remained until 3rd century BC when the romans took over and illyrians were speaking indo european by this point. They are clearly unrelated to illyrians who were a major force already for hundreds of years further south
    Castellieri and Cetina are both potential intermediates for Posusje imho, though there are surely other options as well. And for Posusje we already have J-L283. Key is, that they being all integrated into first Bell Beaker related (Cetina) and later Tumulus culture (Castellieri and Posusje) networks, as well as those of Apennine culture Italy. So the connections are to the Italian and Alpine-Upper Danubian zone, domianted by R-U152/Bell Beakers into Tumulus culture into Urnfield. Remarkably, the Illyrian core did go with Tumulus culture, but it did never transition to the second stage, when the Middle Danubian TC turned into Urnfielders.
    The borderline is about the area of the mentioned Unterkrainische Gruppe in Slovenia, which was mixed R-L2 + J-L283 and kept the Illyrian collective tumuli with inhumation.

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    Taktikat, I think soon this matter will be resolved. Just have to wait for the Lazaridis papers. I think you are aware of some of the leaks by now, such as the R1b from EBA-MBA and the L283 from the MBA-LBA in North Albania. The autosomal signature should clarify this. But we have so many samples at this point a mere few kilometers away that in my eyes the topic is almost done and dusted.

    Ps: Being an Albanian I2a1-Din is pretty cool since its on the rarer side. It means your ancestors incorporated into the ethnos where many others did not. So that is something to be proud of, don't let subconscious complexes make you doubt that. Likely your lines introgression happened early, meaning it predated very formative historical events for Albanians. Since from what I understand, post early Medieval period there was very little intermixing between the already formed Albanian ethnicity and South Slavic Y lineages, as you might have noticed from the countless similarity maps that go around. Kshu qe mos ta nin.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Castellieri and Cetina are both potential intermediates for Posusje imho, though there are surely other options as well. And for Posusje we already have J-L283. Key is, that they being all integrated into first Bell Beaker related (Cetina) and later Tumulus culture (Castellieri and Posusje) networks, as well as those of Apennine culture Italy. So the connections are to the Italian and Alpine-Upper Danubian zone, domianted by R-U152/Bell Beakers into Tumulus culture into Urnfield. Remarkably, the Illyrian core did go with Tumulus culture, but it did never transition to the second stage, when the Middle Danubian TC turned into Urnfielders.
    The borderline is about the area of the mentioned Unterkrainische Gruppe in Slovenia, which was mixed R-L2 + J-L283 and kept the Illyrian collective tumuli with inhumation.
    Sredni Stog might be the key here as Polska and Trojet have mentioned.
    If L283 was incorporated around Ukraine-Romania as part of this culture, as opposed to North Caucasus/Steppe into IE, which might be the case given the classification of the not published Moldovan 6kbp J2b, I begin to wonder what gave rise to the Tumuli mode of burial as opposed to the previous Tripyllia -> Sredni Stog flat graves.
    In a sense one can deduce a surplus of calories, and a more stratified, clan based society. But definitively an economic-cultural shift, as from what I have read the Yamnaya that arose later was a symbiosis of various cultural phenomena from the earlier cultures with some innovations such as the Tumuli.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Sredni Stog might be the key here as Polska and Trojet have mentioned.
    If L283 was incorporated around Ukraine-Romania as part of this culture, as opposed to North Caucasus/Steppe into IE, which might be the case given the classification of the not published Moldovan 6kbp J2b, I begin to wonder what gave rise to the Tumuli mode of burial as opposed to the previous Tripyllia -> Sredni Stog flat graves.
    In a sense one can deduce a surplus of calories, and a more stratified, clan based society. But definitively an economic-cultural shift, as from what I have read the Yamnaya that arose later was a symbiosis of various cultural phenomena from the earlier cultures with some innovations such as the Tumuli.
    That sounds plausible. Anyway the find in Maros (XX B.C) which is earlier than Croatian ones and the find in North-West Caucasus (XX-XIX B.C) supports that trajectory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    That sounds plausible. Anyway the find in Maros (XX B.C) which is earlier than Croatian ones and the find in North-West Caucasus (XX-XIX B.C) supports that trajectory.
    One small group of J-L283 could be enough, probably from a tribe which moved directly to the Carpathian zone and from there on westwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That doesn't matter most likely, because Illyrians and J-L283 seem rather related to the Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje, under the influence of Tumulus and Apennine culture. They rather expanded into Albania and Montenegro, where they indeed could have encountered R-Z2103 and E-V13 in the LBA.
    I think R-Z2103 spread in the EBA to MBA with Greco-Armenians/KMK/MCW and E-V13 in the LBA-EIA and later with Thracians/G�va/Channelled Ware.
    J-L283 seems to be the primary Illyrian marker.
    If what you say is true, that increases the possibility that the Proto-Illyrians were R-Z2103 and E-V13 and not the other way around.

    The Illyrians reached deep South into Epirus, Aetolia, and Makedonia, so we better see some J2b2 in those areas. Unless you suggest a relay-race where J2b2 quickly Illyrianized E-V13 and R-Z2103 and sent them South as Illyrian ambassadors.

    Then, anecdotally, these Southern Illyrians came to be called Illyrii proprie dicti while the original ones where not pure enough lol

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    This thread has unfortunately been prone to being derailed multiple times. It would be great to see some change in this regard.

    If there is an off topic discussion one ore more might be interested in there is always the possibility to open a new thread with the appropriate topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Taktikat, I think soon this matter will be resolved. Just have to wait for the Lazaridis papers. I think you are aware of some of the leaks by now, such as the R1b from EBA-MBA and the L283 from the MBA-LBA in North Albania. The autosomal signature should clarify this. But we have so many samples at this point a mere few kilometers away that in my eyes the topic is almost done and dusted.
    Ps: Being an Albanian I2a1-Din is pretty cool since its on the rarer side. It means your ancestors incorporated into the ethnos where many others did not. So that is something to be proud of, don't let subconscious complexes make you doubt that. Likely your lines introgression happened early, meaning it predated very formative historical events for Albanians. Since from what I understand, post early Medieval period there was very little intermixing between the already formed Albanian ethnicity and South Slavic Y lineages, as you might have noticed from the countless similarity maps that go around. Kshu qe mos ta nin.
    Youre right i am on the rarer side because dinaric north is rare everywhere in south europe including south slavs. However dinaric south is not rare amongst albanians - it is like the 4th/5th most common line

    Anyway back on topic, unfortunately we will keep going in circles until we get at least 5-10 ancient dna samples from montenegro/albania/greece and maybe even macedonia to understand who belonged to what line in south europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    If what you say is true, that increases the possibility that the Proto-Illyrians were R-Z2103 and E-V13 and not the other way around.

    The Illyrians reached deep South into Epirus, Aetolia, and Makedonia, so we better see some J2b2 in those areas. Unless you suggest a relay-race where J2b2 quickly Illyrianized E-V13 and R-Z2103 and sent them South as Illyrian ambassadors.

    Then, anecdotally, these Southern Illyrians came to be called Illyrii proprie dicti while the original ones where not pure enough lol
    I know how you meant it, but what you wrote is in fact close to the truth, because fairly pure J-L283 Illyrians encountered non-Illyrian people, of which some surely carried E-V13 (Thracian related) and R-Z2103 (Greco-Armenian related?), which they then assimilated in the South. At the same time, the Northern groups pushed onwards, which means they got mixed from Tumulus culture/Urnfield/Celts. That's really how it was and is the reason why the "most pure" and probably "most Illyrian" groups will be rather in between these two poles of the North and South. The Dalmatian coast too was subject to other influences. Its the central inland part which should be "most purely" Illyrian, especially if concerning patrilineages.

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    Stable population structure in Europe

    R2040 Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia 245-402 calCE: J2b-L283>>>CTS190>CTS473 (CTS473?)
    R3544 Gardun, Croatia 550-601 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z631>Z1043>>FT212328+(xY146109)
    R3481 Doclea, Montenegro 211-320.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z631>Z1043
    R9918 Doclea, Montenegro 996.5-1150.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>>CTS6190
    R9669 Viminacium, Serbia 129.5-310.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364 (xBY37860)
    R6693 Svilos/Krusevlje, Serbia 236-332 calCE: J2b-L283>Z600 (J-Z585<?<J-Z2507)

    A corrected list of the so far J2b-L283 samples from the named paper in the title (added Sisak-Pogorelec sample and without the wrongly assigned Sirmium sample).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I know how you meant it, but what you wrote is in fact close to the truth, because fairly pure J-L283 Illyrians encountered non-Illyrian people, of which some surely carried E-V13 (Thracian related) and R-Z2103 (Greco-Armenian related?), which they then assimilated in the South. At the same time, the Northern groups pushed onwards, which means they got mixed from Tumulus culture/Urnfield/Celts. That's really how it was and is the reason why the "most pure" and probably "most Illyrian" groups will be rather in between these two poles of the North and South. The Dalmatian coast too was subject to other influences. Its the central inland part which should be "most purely" Illyrian, especially if concerning patrilineages.
    It's honestly quite sad you still keep talking in terms of 1 Y-DNA = 1 culture. How many times must you be proven wrong?

    The most hilarious shit was those Panonians being EV-13 and you kept crying about east and west Hungary.

    "No but it's only in West Hungary"

    "No it's not in northern Illyria"

    "No it's not in south-western Dardania between May 365 BC to July 234 BC"

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    It's honestly quite sad you still keep talking in terms of 1 Y-DNA = 1 culture. How many times must you be proven wrong?

    The most hilarious shit was those Panonians being EV-13 and you kept crying about east and west Hungary.

    "No but it's only in West Hungary"

    "No it's not in northern Illyria"

    "No it's not in south-western Dardania between May 365 BC to July 234 BC"
    Its a question of time, space and burial rite.
    By the MBA the two blocks of J-L283 and E-V13 were very strictly separated, not just by some miles, but with whole modern countries in between. The main E-V13 cultures either practised cremation, as a near exclusive funerary right, or being not sampled yet - but cremation prevailed totally in the E-V13 dominated sphere from the EBA onwards.

    That's why in some regions they suddenly pop up as the main local (non East Asian, non recent Northern European/Slavic) lineage, when inhumation becomes the main rite. The home region in the MBA for the main modern lineages of E-V13 is the area of Tisza-Krs-Danube (Suciu de Sus-Berkesz-Demecser into Gva-Belegis II-Gva), the core area for J-L283 is the Northern Adriatic-Dalmatian coast and Dinaric zone (Castellieri-Pususje).

    Later Glasinac-Mati and Bosut-Basarabi being direct neighbours, with many incursions since the LBA in either direction. Obviously things get blurred by the developed Iron Age.

    I'm also not saying that the respective groups were exclusively J-L283 or E-V13, but completely dominated by these haplogroups, because of recent founder effects from small tribes and clans, in both cases. That's why most of the main subclades have specific TMRCA.
    Last edited by Riverman; 05-06-22 at 13:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Sredni Stog might be the key here as Polska and Trojet have mentioned.
    If L283 was incorporated around Ukraine-Romania as part of this culture, as opposed to North Caucasus/Steppe into IE, which might be the case given the classification of the not published Moldovan 6kbp J2b, I begin to wonder what gave rise to the Tumuli mode of burial as opposed to the previous Tripyllia -> Sredni Stog flat graves.
    In a sense one can deduce a surplus of calories, and a more stratified, clan based society. But definitively an economic-cultural shift, as from what I have read the Yamnaya that arose later was a symbiosis of various cultural phenomena from the earlier cultures with some innovations such as the Tumuli.



    From a post from RCO, on the other forum.

    The Spread of Indo-European across Eurasia - Collège de France - Symposium - Genetic Admixture: Inference and Evolutionary Consequences
    Nick Patterson
    Harvard Medical School, Harvard Evolutionary Biology, USA
    Human Genomics and Evolution / Genetic Admixture: Inference and Evolutionary Consequences
    31 May 2022 12:00 pm 12:30 pm Symposium
    Amphithéâtre Maurice Halbwachs - Marcelin Berthelot
    Download the video


    Session 4: Ancient DNA methods and archaic admixture (Chair: Etienne Patin)



    At this point, this might be foreshadowing.
    I just hope that J2b from Eneolithic Moldova sees the light of day, and if it does, is downstream L283 or basal, and has Yamnaya like autosomal. Then quite a hail mary from Trojet and Polska would be right on the mark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post



    From a post from RCO, on the other forum.

    The Spread of Indo-European across Eurasia - Collège de France - Symposium - Genetic Admixture: Inference and Evolutionary Consequences
    Nick Patterson
    Harvard Medical School, Harvard Evolutionary Biology, USA
    Human Genomics and Evolution / Genetic Admixture: Inference and Evolutionary Consequences
    31 May 2022 12:00 pm 12:30 pm Symposium
    Amphithéâtre Maurice Halbwachs - Marcelin Berthelot
    Download the video


    Session 4: Ancient DNA methods and archaic admixture (Chair: Etienne Patin)



    At this point, this might be foreshadowing.
    I just hope that J2b from Eneolithic Moldova sees the light of day, and if it does, is downstream L283 or basal, and has Yamnaya like autosomal. Then quite a hail mary from Trojet and Polska would be right on the mark.
    Why are people obsessed with yamnaya?

  23. #1448
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Why are people obsessed with yamnaya?
    Because so far, the consensus is that it was a key crossroads as a culture for what later would lead to a family of cultures from Ireland to India?

  24. #1449
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    For people interested in the presentation. Someone was kind enough to share it.

    Quote Originally Posted by J1 DYS388=13 View Post
    Interesting 31 May 2022 lecture by Nick Patterson about the spread of Indo-European languages. May have been noted here before, but I haven't seen this. Sound quality not ideal. I just read the slides. Please find some other thread on which to discuss this. https://www.college-de-france.fr/sit...5-31-12h00.htm

  25. #1450
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    R2040 Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia 245-402 calCE: J2b-L283>>>CTS190>CTS473 (CTS473?)
    R3544 Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia 550-601 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z631>Z1043>>FT212328+(xY146109)
    R3481 Doclea, Montenegro 211-320.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z631>Z1043
    R9918 Doclea, Montenegro 996.5-1150.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>>CTS6190
    R9669 Viminacium, Serbia 129.5-310.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364 (xBY37860)
    R6693 Svilos/Krusevlje, Serbia 236-332 calCE: J2b-L283>Z600 (J-Z585<?<J-Z2507)

    A corrected list of the so far J2b-L283 samples from the named paper in the title (added Sisak-Pogorelec sample and without the wrongly assigned Sirmium sample).
    R3543 Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia 431-600.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z38240>Z38241>FT103684>FTA60432>FTA61140 (<->Y268072)

    As usual, thanks for the update Trojet.

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