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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    You may read my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 here and here, which was written before we had the Mycenaean ancient DNA. My analysis pointing that current Greek J2b2-L283 subclades are unlikely to be present among Mycenaeans, and are as a result of later migrations from further North (Dorians, Illyrians Thracians, and later Vlachs and Albanians), stands.
    Regarding J2b1-M205, as Dema pointed out, in the mainland Balkans (outside of the the Mediterranean), all of it seems to fall under J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066 and has a TMRCA of only ca. 900-1500 years, which suggests it was likely not present there before the common era, hence the reason why (Gheg) Albanians are almost completely lacking it. Unfortunately, many people don't understand haplogroup J2b quite well, so they assume they are part of the same migration. True, J2b1-M205 has a TMRCA of ca. 6000 years, but in ancient DNA is consistently being found in the Levant area. It's distribution is actually quite reminiscent of some branches of haplogroup J2a.
    So far the only J2b that has "deep roots" (high TMRCA) in Europe, and found in ancient DNA from the Bronze Age or before (in Croatia) is J2b2-L283, which as we know reaches maximum frequency among (Gheg) Albanians, while being quite low everywhere else, albeit with some representation among Vlachs and Greeks.
    We don't know whether Myceneans had no J2b at all. The proto-Hellenes may have had some, but in the South they mixed with Minoan natives who where the overwhelming majority. In the North areas of Greece, the peoples may have been slightly different. Areas of Thessaly and Epirus may therefore had a lot more j2b than South Greece during the late Bronze Age. In any case, we do need more ancient comparing material. For now we only have two Myceneans from Southern mainland Greece. The others are from Crete. So I am a still a bit reserved as to whether Myceneans didn't have J2b. Esecially since old J2b1 is in seen in Greece and Italy. The thing is that if we do find traces of J2b in ancient specimens of mainland Greece, we will have the first evidence of some genetic variety within the Ancient Greek genetic mainframe.

    As for the Ghegh Albanians, they have evaded old Mediterranean J2b1 as well as the younger J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066. It seems to me to be evidence of the fact that they were pretty much isolated until recently. And that they expanded rather rapidly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    As for the Ghegh Albanians, they have evaded old Mediterranean J2b1 as well as the younger J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066. It seems to me to be evidence of the fact that they were pretty much isolated until recently. And that they expanded rather rapidly.
    We have so far 3 Albanians confirmed with j2b1 (out of maybe more then 1000 samples), from which two are Ghegs and one Tosk. We have both Mediterranean coastal and Balkan mainland branches found among these 3 samples.
    Last edited by Dema; 03-11-17 at 21:43.

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    J2b2-L283
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Map of the haplogroup

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    ^^Interesting. I wonder why the hotspot in eastern France going into Italy?


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    Actually ernekar wrote about that hotspot on the albanian forum. It is not i France, but in Piedmont region of Italy. There was like 11% J2-m241 if i remember correctly.

    My quess would be that the northern Illyrians(or maybe proto-illyrians) could have entered northern Italy by sailing of Istria during the late bronze age or a little later.

    It would be interesting to test deeper, and see when they arrived in piedmont.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Interesting. I wonder why the hotspot in eastern France going into Italy?
    That’s not my Haplogroup, I get some relation on the genetic Communities in that area. Illyrians came to Puglia.

    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Illyrians came to Puglia.
    Yes illyrians came to pugla rather late. When they were practically fully formed. That is why i said "maybe proto-illyrians", as i was suggesting that these could have been earlier migrations than those who went to puglia to form the Messapi.

    But it was also just a guess.

    In my eyes there is 2 scenarios which are most likely.
    1. Early or late illyrians settled there during the bronze age or during antiquity.
    2. Somehow some arbereshe went the opposite way of the other arbeshe during the middle ages, and ended up in northen italy rather than southern Italy.

    Why i think nr. 2 i kind of unlikely:
    When arbereshe went to italy, italy was not yet united.
    And the arbereshe settled in what was then Kingdom of Naples(southern italy).
    And that was because Scanderbeg and the albanians had fought off a north-african siege of naples some years ealier.
    So as a "thank you" to the albanians, for saving the southern italians arses, the albanians were allowed to settle in the kingdom of naples after the ottoman conquest of albania and scanderbegs death.
    And as the albanians didn't save the northern italians arses, i dont see why they should let us settle in northern italy in the middle ages.

    Beside these two scenarios, there are also lots of other posibilities as to how J2b2 reached piemonte, but i consider those too unlikely to mention them at all.

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    There is also another possibility i forgot.
    That an balkanite-dominated legion of the roman army, stood guard there to prevent gauls from entering italy.
    Some of them eventually settled and created several founder effects among the villages in the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Interesting. I wonder why the hotspot in eastern France going into Italy?
    Interesting question


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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.
    But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).
    In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).
    Garrick I don't know if you just don't understand this topic at all, or (more likely) you just want to spread misinformation to undermine the Illyrian-Albanian continuity through haplogroup J2. Anyway, I'll be open minded about your intentions and briefly school you on this, hopefully clarifying for others who might have been confused by your posts.
    You are implying that J2b2-M12 among Albanians is not necessarily from Illyrians, but it could be from Thracians or Dacians. Here is why you're wrong:

    1. The only Bronze Age J2b2-L283 found until now was firmly in Illyrian territory. If Bulgarians or others have it today it might have been spread from, not to, Illyria.

    2. You wrongly cite that study to claim that Albanians with M12 have a common ancestor from around 1.7k years ago. However, the study says, on page 886: "most Albanians and Bulgarians clustered together". Not all, most. So the TMRCA of J2b2-M12 Albanians is NOT 1782 YBP, that is just the TMRCA of the one group that the authors identified as similar.

    To find the real TMRCA of J2b2-L283 Albanians (same subclade as the one found in Bronze Age Croatia), you can easily go to the Albanian Bloodlines website (I can't post links yet), to see what subclades Albanians belong to, and then to the yfull website, the page on J-L283, to see their TMRCA. Clearly, Albanians are spread over the JZ1296 subclade, whith a TMRCA 4300 BP.

    3. The same study you cite, on page 889, Figure 4, clearly states that even the portion of J2b2-M12 that shows an Albanian-Bulgarian similarity actually has an Albanian founder. So if it spread in any direction it probably spread from Albania, or at least Western Balkan, eastwards.
    Last edited by Ownstyler; 18-02-18 at 08:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Garrick I don't know if you just don't understand this topic at all, or (more likely) you just want to spread misinformation to undermine the Illyrian-Albanian continuity through haplogroup J2. Anyway, I'll be open minded about your intentions and briefly school you on this, hopefully clarifying for others who might have been confused by your posts.

    You are implying that J2b2-M12 among Albanians is not necessarily from Illyrians, but it could be from Thracians or Dacians. Here is why you're wrong:

    1. The only Bronze Age J2b2-L283 found until now was firmly in Illyrian territory. If Bulgarians or others have it today it might have been spread from, not to, Illyria.
    2. You wrongly cite that study to claim that Albanians with M12 have a common ancestor from around 1.7k years ago. However, the study says, on page 886: "most Albanians and Bulgarians clustered together". Not all, most. So the TMRCA of J2b2-M12 Albanians is NOT 1782 YBP, that is just the TMRCA of the one group that the authors identified as similar.
    To find the real TMRCA of J2b2-L283 Albanians (same subclade as the one found in Bronze Age Croatia), you can easily go to the Albanian Bloodlines website (I can't post links yet), to see what subclades Albanians belong to, and then to the yfull website, the page on J-L283, to see their TMRCA. Clearly, Albanians are spread over the JZ1296 subclade, whith a TMRCA 4300 BP.
    3. The same study you cite, on page 889, Figure 4, clearly states that even the portion of J2b2-M12 that shows an Albanian-Bulgarian similarity actually has an Albanian founder. So if it spread in any direction it probably spread from Albania, or at least Western Balkan, eastwards.
    IMO....if the marker is late bronze age in the area noted........it could only be thracian or the sub branch of thracian noted as Dorian , Dorians lived between the greeks and illyrians ( eastern alps )......the Dorians had to have been on the adriatic coast because they had to have a fleet to conquer crete, rhodes and other greek islands ...........the other marker found was J2a in roughly the same area.......which matches Roman J2a later on
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This is just your subjective interpretation, just as valid as countless others, which doesn't counter my point anyway. The reality of the limited data we have now though, clearly establishes a local continuity of the J2b2-L283.

    What J2a are you talking about? Do you have a reference? I don't see it in the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    This is just your subjective interpretation, just as valid as countless others, which doesn't counter my point anyway. The reality of the limited data we have now though, clearly establishes a local continuity of the J2b2-L283.
    What J2a are you talking about? Do you have a reference? I don't see it in the map.
    You got it right! No J2a was found "in roughly the same area". Sile and Garrick will even make things up, just to deny any Illyrian-Albanian continuity, like they have done for the last 7 years at Eupedia. Very unprofessional to say the least...
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    This is just your subjective interpretation, just as valid as countless others, which doesn't counter my point anyway. The reality of the limited data we have now though, clearly establishes a local continuity of the J2b2-L283.

    What J2a are you talking about? Do you have a reference? I don't see it in the map.
    the same J2a which is in the same 2017 paper as the J2b for the same time period and for the same area

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    You got it right! No J2a was found "in roughly the same area". Sile and Garrick will even make things up, just to deny any Illyrian-Albanian continuity, like they have done for the last 7 years at Eupedia. Very unprofessional to say the least...
    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/

    why are you not seeing this ...........

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    LINK
    why are you not seeing this ...........
    I just checked the whole thing and there is nothing written there at all about J2a. Also, the map, which has all the DNA data from the paper you mentioned, doesn't show any Bronze Age J2a, except much further South, in the Crete and the Peloponnese.

    I would suggest you either provide the exact quotes that refer to J2a, or admit you made the whole thing up and delete your two previous posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I just checked the whole thing and there is nothing written there at all about J2a. Also, the map, which has all the DNA data from the paper you mentioned, doesn't show any Bronze Age J2a, except much further South, in the Crete and the Peloponnese.

    I would suggest you either provide the exact quotes that refer to J2a, or admit you made the whole thing up and delete your two previous posts.
    my post #115 is about the thread title ............how can it even be contemplated that it is proto-Illyrian

    ..........if you want the J2a read mathieson 2017 paper

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the same J2a which is in the same 2017 paper as the J2b for the same time period and for the same area
    There was a Neolithic J2a found farther North, but absolutely not in the same time period and in the same area as the Bronze Age Dalmatian J2b2-L283.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    ..........if you want the J2a read mathieson 2017 paper
    I have already read that paper. Where is the Illyrian territory Bronze Age J2a mentioned? Can you quote it? What page?

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    Greetings, I'd like to share my view that certain, likely crucial, facts have not been mentioned by anyone as far as I know.

    J2b2 sample found at Veliki Vanik is identifiable archaeologically, and that should be the starting point in deliberating about it's origins.

    "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe"
    Radiocarbon dates and preserved artifacts (hair ornament made of coiled copper
    wire and fragments of pottery) date these burials to the Early/Middle Bronze Age.28
    28
    Mucić, K. & Kovačević Bokarica, N. Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine
    na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja. In: Arheološka istraživanja na trasi
    autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini (ed M Tomasović) 125-212 (Gradski muzej Makarska,
    2011).


    Majića gradina (drinovci) - novo nalazište licenske keramike u Hercegovini (new site of litzen ware in Herzegovina)

    https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/247012
    "nego se konvencionalno takva vrsta nalaza, bilo da su oni ukrašeni otiskivanjem dvonitne uzice ili otkane tkanice/vrpce, često deklarira kao licenska.16"

    16 Usp. B. Čović, "Posuška kultura", 70, 75, 77-78, T. VIII, 5, T. X, 5, 4; Marinko Tomasović, "Arheološka topografija lijeve strane donjeg toka Cetine", u: Jacqueline Balen - Hrvoje Potrebica (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja u cetinskoj krajini, Izdanja Hrvatskoga arheološkog društva, vol. 27, Zagreb, 2011., T. I, 5-6; Vedran Katavić - Ana Sunko Katavić - Andrea Devlahović, "Istraživanje grobnog tumula, dviju vrtača, gradine i gradinice u Gornjim Rašćanima kod Vrgorca", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 46, kat. jed. 7; Konstanta Mucić - Nela Kovačević Bokarica, "Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 130, kat. jed. 2; B. Marijanović, nav. dj., str. 105, T. LXXXV, 5; T. LXXXVI, 1,2; Ivan Šuta, "Korištenje vrtača u prapovijesti Dalmacije", u: Tusculum, 6, Solin, 2013., str. 11-12, sl. 6.


    So, the Veliki Vanik sample belongs to what archaeologist Borivoj Čović calls "Posušje culture", while prof. Blagoje Govedarica designated it as "Dinara culture". Characterized by "Litzen" ware, this culture has clear ties to Apennine peninsula. Probably further this M241 element is to be traced to Ljubljana culture, and Ljubljana culture has clear, strong and undeniable Bell Beaker substrate. For example Paola Korošec was of the opinion that Bell Beaker element even eliminated the residual Vučedol element that was present in Ig I (early Ljubljana) phase. Some other archaeologists were of the opinion that they "got along" somehow. Anyway Korošec traced Bell Beaker element to Remedello culture of northern Italy. Steppe mtdna W3a was also found in I3607 Bell Beaker sample in Deggendorf, Bavaria. All this, in my view, clearly suggests that M241 was this Bell Beaker element. I do not believe phylogenetic structure of J-M241 allows for an "out of steppe" migratory path, rather as all older subclades and seemingly archaeology suggests, J-M241 spread from Italy.

    It should be noted that Dinara culture was very clearly different from neighboring Cetina culture, which additionally enforces the hypothesis put up by Raf Ceustermans that E-V13 spread out of Cetina culture.
    Cetina culture was nomadic and cattle-breeding, while Dinara culture relied heavily on fortifications and agriculture.

    So J-M241 is very much proto-Illyrian, and likely the most important genetic element in what would later become Illyrians, as I strongly believe E-V13 through Cetina culture made contact with a very different Indo-European element such as Z2103 (older clades) Vučedol or/and another non-Vučedol element that was arriving directly out of steppe and likely proto-Greek. Extensions of both Dinara/Posušje and Cetina cultures existed further down south, in Albania (Nezir and Maliq respectively for instance). And it can be seen that they did coexist for some time, and even later former managed to spread at the expense of the latter (in the western areas at least). It would appear that E-V13, being more nomadic, migrated much more to the East and far South (Cetina ware on Peloponnese EHIII). Those Vučedol elements that stayed played role in Illyrian ethnogenesis.


    So, I think we've got a solution for J-M241: local Italian element that was "beakerised".:) So yes it was arriving as an Indoeuropean element to Western Balkans. Additionally this sample, being J-Y15058*, indicates even this clade that has presence in the East (Bulgarians, Aromanians) has ultimately Western-Balkan origin.

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    I seem to have made an error earlier while posting here.. Anyway, regarding this Veliki Vanik find, it is archaeologically identifiable:

    Footnote from "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe"
    Radiocarbon dates and preserved artifacts (hair ornament made of coiled copper wire and fragments of pottery) date these burials to the Early/Middle Bronze Age.28


    28
    Mucić, K. & Kovačević Bokarica, N. Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine
    na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja. In: Arheološka istraživanja na trasi
    autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini (ed M Tomasović) 125-212 (Gradski muzej Makarska,
    2011).


    One last year's work:
    Majića gradina (Drinovci) - novo nalazište licenske keramike u Hercegovini (new find of Litzen ware in Herzegovina)


    U kulturnom i kronološkom pogledu navedene razlike nisu toliko izražene, barem ne u kontekstu promatrane kulturne regije, gdje često i ne postoji uža distinkcija prema načinu izvođenja ornamenta, nego se konvencionalno takva vrsta nalaza, bilo da su oni ukrašeni otiskivanjem dvonitne uzice ili otkane tkanice/vrpce, često deklarira kao licenska.16


    16 Usp. B. Čović, "Posuška kultura", 70, 75, 77-78, T. VIII, 5, T. X, 5, 4; Marinko Tomasović, "Arheološka topografija lijeve strane donjeg toka Cetine", u: Jacqueline Balen - Hrvoje Potrebica (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja u cetinskoj krajini, Izdanja Hrvatskoga arheološkog društva, vol. 27, Zagreb, 2011., T. I, 5-6; Vedran Katavić - Ana Sunko Katavić - Andrea Devlahović, "Istraživanje grobnog tumula, dviju vrtača, gradine i gradinice u Gornjim Rašćanima kod Vrgorca", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 46, kat. jed. 7; Konstanta Mucić - Nela Kovačević Bokarica, "Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 130, kat. jed. 2; B. Marijanović, nav. dj., str. 105, T. LXXXV, 5; T. LXXXVI, 1,2; Ivan Šuta, "Korištenje vrtača u prapovijesti Dalmacije", u: Tusculum, 6, Solin, 2013., str. 11-12, sl. 6.


    So Litzen ware clearly places Veliki Vanik in the context of what B.Čović called Posušje culture, while Govedarica classified it as Dinara culture. Dinara culture was markedly different in comparison to neighboring Cetina culture, as you know Raf Ceustermans of E-M35 Project already put up a hypothesis of connection between E-V13 and Cetina culture. Tying J-M241 with coexisting neighboring Dinara culture actually adds indirectly additional weight to his hypothesis.
    It must be said that Dinara culture has clear ties to Apennine Peninsula. It's origin can be through some connections be further traced to Ljubljana culture. Ljubljana culture had strong and clear Bell Bekaer element. In it's first phase Vuledol element was present, then at the end of it came the Bell Beaker element, some archaeologists suggested they coexisted and together proceeded to the south, but Slovenian archaeologist Paola Korošec was of the opinion that Bell Beaker element destroyed Vučedol element. W3a is a steppe mtdna, but it was also found in one Bell Beaker sample from Deggendorf, Bavaria. She traced this Bell Beaker element to north Italian Remedello culture. And that brings us to J-M241, as all older clades are found in Italy, I strongly believe J-M241 is this Bell Beaker element. So it was an indoeuropean element coming not from the steppes but from the West. All in all, I believe this J2b2 find explains itself very nicely, the nature of this culture and location of early M241 clades just fit nicely.

    It is without doubt proto-Illyrian, and likely J-M241 might have been the most numerous Illyrian hg. Additionally this sample being J-Y15058* points that even several clades under it that have ties to Eastern Balkans (Bulgarians, Aromanians) ultimately have western origins.

    E-V13 is another theme, but I think Indoeuropean element V13 encountered was markedly different from Bell Beakers. Likely all E-V13's are a "grecoid" population originally, they migrated much more eastwards and southwards, but those clades that stayed of course played their part in ethnogenesis of Illyrians.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    'Grecoid' lmao....

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    It is without doubt proto-Illyrian, and likely J-M241 might have been the most numerous Illyrian hg. Additionally this sample being J-Y15058* points that even several clades under it that have ties to Eastern Balkans (Bulgarians, Aromanians) ultimately have western origins.
    Interesting observation. I tend to agree with you here. However, I believe E-V13 might've been just as common as J2b2 if not more, especially during the Iron Age. We'll see what future aDNA tells us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    And that brings us to J-M241, as all older clades are found in Italy, I strongly believe J-M241 is this Bell Beaker element. So it was an indoeuropean element coming not from the steppes but from the West. All in all, I believe this J2b2 find explains itself very nicely, the nature of this culture and location of early M241 clades just fit nicely.
    You seem to be only looking at YFull tree, which tells a quarter of the picture. It is heavily biased towards Italy due to 1200 Sardinian Sequences from the Francalacci study. Although J2b2-L283 is pretty diverse in Italy/Sardinia and could've very well expanded from there as suggested by these older clades, there is a major problem with the theory that it expanded from Italy or the west. Besides Bronze Age Croatia, J2b2-L283 has also been found in Late Bronze Age Armenia. Furthermore, the ancient Armenian sample is negative for Z627, which means he was J-L283* and "older" than any modern sample. If it expanded from Italy, IMO it would be very unlikely a J-L283* would end up all the way in Bronze Age Armenia with Steppe admixture and Steppe mtDNA. Also, at J-M241 Project we now have samples upstream of Z628 aka Z597 basically all over Europe. National Geographic Geno 2 samples suggest the same, there is even two L283+ and Z585- samples in the Balkans, so these "older" clades are not restricted mainly to Italy as the YFull tree suggests.

    Considering the above mentioned data, no Neolithic aDNA J2b2 in Europe/Anatolia, and that it must have come from the East (oldest J2b found in early Neolithic western Iran), at this point I believe the area of the Steppe or north Caucuses is the most likely expansion of J2b2-L283 in a migration that mostly went to Balkans/Italy, with Z597>Z2507 subclades going through some founder effects after reaching the western Balkans in the Bronze Age.
    Last edited by Trojet; 05-03-18 at 04:55.

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    I am J2b2 from Kosovo if you're wondering :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ad0nis View Post
    I am J2b2 from Kosovo if you're wondering :)
    Welcome to the club :) Just curious, what tribe/clan do you belong to, and where have you tested?

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