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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post




    Originally Posted by Archetype0ne
    I meant it more relating to earlier comments by different fora users that L283 had to come to Albania from the North, when in my mind coming from a probably Yamnaya context akin to Maros other finds will be further in the hinterland. And futhermore they dont necesarily have to have come to Albania from Croatia, in Albania in fact they might predate the ones in Croatia. Hence a North to South move along the Adriatic is not a foregone conlusion.







    Originally Posted by Archetype0ne
    I meant it more relating to earlier comments by different fora users that L283 had to come to Albania from the North, when in my mind coming from a probably Yamnaya context akin to Maros other finds will be further in the hinterland. And futhermore they dont necesarily have to have come to Albania from Croatia, in Albania in fact they might predate the ones in Croatia. Hence a North to South move along the Adriatic is not a foregone conlusion.






    Why would J2b2-L283 specifically of come from Albania ? As far as I'm concerned, all the J2b2-L283 we have so far in the Balkans are mostly from the Iron Age/Bronze Age. If anything, if this Y-DNA spread with Indo-European speakers, or was picked up somewhere in Europe, it was in central Europe (maybe together with EV-13 and R1b-L23), from there it came into the Balkans, spread by Proto-Illyrians from the Hallstatt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture , Of course, it could of also been in the Balkans already and back migrated. But the fact it seems to have an Iron Age / Bronze Age expansion / bottle neck makes it unlikely.

    R1b-L23 was a major IE marker so could of also come in different waves and the oldest R1b-L23 found in Croatia is far earlier than the J2b2 found and it was found in Vucedol which also some relate to Illyrians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture

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    Of course some J2b2-L283, if it had come from the Steppes, could of also come directly from the Steppes or from Hungary and down to the Balkans. As did possibly some EV-13 and R1b-L23. Some could of course migrated north again. Anything is possible in this one big giant of a cluster ****.

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    There are many informative posts made by Trojet and others on this thread. It does not take much effort to pick the right information up. Besides that there is also a map of aDNA J2b-L283 samples with linked scientific papers.

    I kindly ask you to stop derailing this thread with off topic correlation mish-mash "theories" that have absolutely no scientific basis. Spam posts as such are hindering to those who are interested in updates in regards to the threads topic.

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    There are 5 new ancient J2b-L283 samples from the August 2022 study "The Anglo-Saxon migration and formation of the Early English Gene pool": https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...899?show=reads (ENA-FIRST-PUBLIC:2022-08-08)

    ADN001
    Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z 8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)


    ADN005
    Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043 (xY32998,Y154639,Y29721,FGC58561,Y36972,Y129853,FT 131786,CTS11760,Y191359,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)


    ADN009 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z 8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)

    ADN010 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z 8429>A25649>Y12007 (xY12000,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)

    S20654 West Heslerton, Yorkshire, United Kingdom; Anglo-Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z638>Z1297 (xY27522,FT29003,Y32373,Y83688,CTS8364,Y166564,Y85 328,Y82184,Z8421)
    ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet
    I see sample S20654 has three derived reads for Y37818 (G>T). So he should be more specifically J-Y21878 (xFT29003,Y32373,Y83688,CTS8364,Y166564,Y85328,Y82 184).


    In other news, there is a new J-Z638 subclade at FTDNA, parallel to the more popular J-Z1297 and J-Y21045, namely J-FT31120, which contains samples from United Kingdom (YF019450 at YFull) and Switzerland with a TMRCA of ~4200 ybp. Then, each one of these are forming fairly recent subclades with unknown origin samples, which given the closeness, I suppose are within their respective regions. Considering the so far lack of Balkan samples within J-FT31120 and the high TMRCA, this would suggest J-Z638 was likely still in North Balkans area when it expanded. The currently oldest J-Z615 aDNA sample, which is upstream of J-Z638, comes from the very north of modern Serbia (MOK15; ~3950 ybp).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    There are many informative posts made by Trojet and others on this thread. It does not take much effort to pick the right information up. Besides that there is also a map of aDNA J2b-L283 samples with linked scientific papers.

    I kindly ask you to stop derailing this thread with off topic correlation mish-mash "theories" that have absolutely no scientific basis. Spam posts as such are hindering to those who are interested in updates in regards to the threads topic.
    Nobody is derailing anything you attention seeker.

    In beginning our survey of Iron Age Indo-European peoples, it may be well to choose the earliest instance in which we can definitely identify a language with a culture and a racial entity. This is true of the so-called Hallstatt culture associated with the Illyrian branch of Indo-European speech. Although usually classified with Centum, Illyrian, like Tokharian B, belonged to an ancient form of Indo-European which perhaps antedated the clear segregation into Centum and Satem
    - The Illyrians - Carleton Coon

    Even that Matzinger guy supports this theory , as far as I'm concerned this theory still hasn't been disproven. Does not matter what it says on wiki.

    From the new book on Illyrians by Matzinger & Lippert. Matzinger argues that Illyrian descended from the Indo-European "East Alpine Block



    If this Y-DNA came with Indo-Europeans then it either came directly from the steppes together with some Dacians/Thacians and into the Balkans or from Central Europe / Hungary . If it's not IE then that's a different case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Why would J2b2-L283 specifically of come from Albania ? As far as I'm concerned, all the J2b2-L283 we have so far in the Balkans are mostly from the Iron Age/Bronze Age. If anything, if this Y-DNA spread with Indo-European speakers, or was picked up somewhere in Europe, it was in central Europe (maybe together with EV-13 and R1b-L23), from there it came into the Balkans, spread by Proto-Illyrians from the Hallstatt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture , Of course, it could of also been in the Balkans already and back migrated. But the fact it seems to have an Iron Age / Bronze Age expansion / bottle neck makes it unlikely.

    R1b-L23 was a major IE marker so could of also come in different waves and the oldest R1b-L23 found in Croatia is far earlier than the J2b2 found and it was found in Vucedol which also some relate to Illyrians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture
    Unfortunately theres no J-L283 outside of the mediterranean and balkans before roman and illyrians. They only apear there after and during the dark ages. So its rather like they migrated and arrived in the balkans by ship or by landroute in the lower pontic. Doesn't nullify them of their steppe ancestry. They probably continued to have it but they didnt migrate from ukraine to central europe.
    Likely straight through the black sea or land route crossing into modern day bulgaria and then into the rest of the balkans.
    Last edited by Wanderer; 18-08-22 at 04:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Unfortunately theres no J-L283 outside of the mediterranean and balkans before roman and illyrians. They only apear there after and during the dark ages. So its rather like they migrated and arrived in the balkans by ship or by landroute in the lower pontic. Doesn't nullify them of their steppe ancestry. They probably continued to have it but they didnt migrate from ukraine to central europe. Like straight through the black sea or land route crossing into modern day bulgaria and then into the rest of the balkans.

    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Well yea, i mean aside from the caucus ( which isn't ukraine). Im talking in reference to europe.

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    Attachment 13489

    Kukes is a J-L283 stronghold for some reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Why would J2b2-L283 specifically of come from Albania ? As far as I'm concerned, all the J2b2-L283 we have so far in the Balkans are mostly from the Iron Age/Bronze Age. If anything, if this Y-DNA spread with Indo-European speakers, or was picked up somewhere in Europe, it was in central Europe (maybe together with EV-13 and R1b-L23), from there it came into the Balkans, spread by Proto-Illyrians from the Hallstatt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture , Of course, it could of also been in the Balkans already and back migrated. But the fact it seems to have an Iron Age / Bronze Age expansion / bottle neck makes it unlikely.

    R1b-L23 was a major IE marker so could of also come in different waves and the oldest R1b-L23 found in Croatia is far earlier than the J2b2 found and it was found in Vucedol which also some relate to Illyrians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture
    Its pretty self evident the majority of proto illyrians and proto pelasgian J2b2-L283 came from the adriatic and balkans with some migrating to sardinia and Italian peninsula when they arrived into europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Its pretty self evident the majority of proto illyrians and proto pelasgian J2b2-L283 came from the adriatic and balkans with some migrating to sardinia and Italian peninsula when they arrived into europe
    even so......you still have other parts , like caucasus
    looks like ancient ...Pannonia, North-Illyria and Italy


    Red is BC

    orange is AD

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    There are many informative posts made by Trojet and others on this thread. It does not take much effort to pick the right information up. Besides that there is also a map of aDNA J2b-L283 samples with linked scientific papers.

    I kindly ask you to stop derailing this thread with off topic correlation mish-mash "theories" that have absolutely no scientific basis. Spam posts as such are hindering to those who are interested in updates in regards to the threads topic.
    I'd like to remind everyone of this again. News in regards to scientific papers are getting overshadowed by these spam like pseudo scientific comments.

    There are resources which have been named and posted multiple times.

    The oldest samples are from the West Balkans mainly the East Adriatic but also West Adriatic.
    The oldest individual sample is from EBA Maros Culture ~3950 ybp. Alone from Italy there are 10 BCE samples, so that statement, Wanderer, is totally false.

    Here once and for all: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4999999966&z=5


    Also, I'd like to remind everyone that there are 50+ J2b-L283 samples from the postponed Balkan study (Lalueza-Fox) mainly from the Bronze and Iron Age that will be published in 2023. Not to forget other upcoming studies with samples from the Balkans that are on their way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    even so......you still have other parts , like caucasus
    looks like ancient ...Pannonia, North-Illyria and Italy


    Red is BC

    orange is AD
    those are part of the balkans and I mentioned the caucus already

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    even so......you still have other parts , like caucasus
    looks like ancient ...Pannonia, North-Illyria and Italy


    Red is BC

    orange is AD
    Are you reading what I said?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I'd like to remind everyone of this again. News in regards to scientific papers are getting overshadowed by these spam like pseudo scientific comments.

    There are resources which have been named and posted multiple times.

    The oldest samples are from the West Balkans mainly the East Adriatic but also West Adriatic.
    The oldest individual sample is from EBA Maros Culture ~3950 ybp. Alone from Italy there are 10 BCE samples, so that statement, Wanderer, is totally false.

    Here once and for all: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4999999966&z=5


    Also, I'd like to remind everyone that there are 50+ J2b-L283 samples from the postponed Balkan study (Lalueza-Fox) mainly from the Bronze and Iron Age that will be published in 2023. Not to forget other upcoming studies with samples from the Balkans that are on their way.
    You are quoting mount.
    Also there is more than a few of sardinian J-L283 about 1000 BC and a bit earlier. If they saild to sardinia from the balkans and adriatic they definitely had to have made contact in the italian peninsula around the same time since sardinia is even farther away from the balkans and adriatic coast then italy.

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    These are some in the italian peninsula.
    Mok 15 is in the balkans close to hungary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    Kukes is a J-L283 stronghold for some reason.
    In Kukës county of North Albania, there is a strong founder effect due to Krasniqi, Nikaj, and Gashi tribes, which have a strong presence in the region, where the vast majority of it belongs to a single lineage, more specifically under J-PH1751>Z38299>Y46913 aka Y52453, TMRCA ~750 years ago. (Does not mean J2b-L283 couldn't have an ancient presence in the region). There is a very similar scenario in Eastern Kosovë.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I'd like to remind everyone of this again. News in regards to scientific papers are getting overshadowed by these spam like pseudo scientific comments.

    There are resources which have been named and posted multiple times.

    The oldest samples are from the West Balkans mainly the East Adriatic but also West Adriatic.
    The oldest individual sample is from EBA Maros Culture ~3950 ybp. Alone from Italy there are 10 BCE samples, so that statement, Wanderer, is totally false.

    Here once and for all:


    Also, I'd like to remind everyone that there are 50+ J2b-L283 samples from the postponed Balkan study (Lalueza-Fox) mainly from the Bronze and Iron Age that will be published in 2023. Not to forget other upcoming studies with samples from the Balkans that are on their way.
    We are just asking if this Y-DNA is Proto-Illyrian / Indo European or not ? Since you act like an expert maybe you could simply answer this question ? Since that's what the thread title says ''Proto-Illyrian'' ? So tell us , how did this Y-DNA get to the Balkans and with what populations ? How did it reach it's frequency ? I Certainly don't claim to know everything. In fact, it's a topic I haven't studied much or in a long while so I'm curious to see some opinions here. I am not gonna bother reading through the thread to find something informative since I know this thread was filled earlier with arguments. Maybe you could link us to a post that explains it's origin ? As far as I'm concerned, none of the posts you quoted so far explain it's origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    In Kukës county of North Albania, there is a strong founder effect due to Krasniqi, Nikaj, and Gashi tribes, which have a strong presence in the region, where the vast majority of it belongs to a single lineage, more specifically under J-PH1751>Z38299>Y46913 aka Y52453, TMRCA ~750 years ago. (Does not mean J2b-L283 couldn't have an ancient presence in the region). There is a very similar scenario in Eastern Kosovë.
    What about the J2b2-L283 in Kosovo ? Does it mainly come from these tribes too ? ,..............

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    If J-L283 settled in southern italy does that mean that J-L283 were also samnites?

    The Samnites were one of the Italian peoples that allied with King Pyrrhus of Epirus during the Pyrrhic War.[41] After Pyrrhus left for Sicily, the Romans invaded Samnium and were crushed at the Battle of the Cranita Hills, but after the defeat of Pyrrhus, the Samnites could not resist on their own and surrendered to Rome.
    Some of them joined and aided Hannibal during the Second Punic War, but most stayed loyal to Rome.[42] After the Romans refused to grant the Samnites citizenship, they, along with other Italic peoples, rebelled against the Romans. This war, known as the Social War, lasted almost four years and resulted in a Roman victory. After this bloody conflict, Samnites and other Italic tribes were granted citizenship to avoid the possibility of another war.
    J-L283 migration with carthagenians to iberian peninsula?

    Samnites allying with illyrians of espirus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    If J-L283 settled in southern italy does that mean that J-L283 were also samnites?



    J-L283 migration with carthagenians to iberian peninsula?

    Samnites allying with illyrians of espirus?

    Looks like southern Italy Foggia area .............where the Daunians of modern Croatia arrived there,.......... circa 1000BC

    In the DNA Daunian paper of a year or so ago, IIRC, state they originate on the modern border of Croatia and Slovenia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    If J-L283 settled in southern italy does that mean that J-L283 were also samnites?



    J-L283 migration with carthagenians to iberian peninsula?

    Samnites allying with illyrians of espirus?

    what is Espirus......you mean Epirotes ?

    There was 14 Epirote tribes noted by historians............living from modern south Albania to North-West Greece

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    what is Espirus......you mean Epirotes ?

    There was 14 Epirote tribes noted by historians............living from modern south Albania to North-West Greece
    Sorry miss spelling, I mean Epirus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Looks like southern Italy Foggia area .............where the Daunians of modern Croatia arrived there,.......... circa 1000BC

    In the DNA Daunian paper of a year or so ago, IIRC, state they originate on the modern border of Croatia and Slovenia
    Interesting. It would make sense.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunians
    The Daunii were similar to but also different from the Peucetii and Messapii, who settled in central and southern Puglia.[10] Having been also less influenced by the Campanian civilization, it had thus a more peculiar culture, featuring in particular the Daunian steles, a series of funerary monuments sculpted in the 7th-6th centuries BC in the plain south of Siponto, and now mostly housed in the National Archeological Museum of Manfredonia. Particularly striking is the Daunian pottery (as yet little studied) which begins with geometric patterns but which eventually includes crude human, bird and plant figures.

    The main Daunian centers were Teanum Apulum (within the modern San Paolo di Civitate), Uria Garganica, the location of which though is not known with certainty, Casone, Lucera, Merinum (Vieste), Monte Saraceno (near Mattinata), Siponto, Coppa Nevigata, Cupola, Salapia (near Cerignola and Manfredonia), Arpi (near Foggia), Aecae (near Troia), Vibinum (Bovino), Castelluccio dei Sauri, Herdonia (Ordona), Ausculum (Ascoli Satriano), Ripalta (near Cerignola), Canosa di Puglia, Lavello and Venosa. Since its settlement, Messapic was in contact with the Italic languages of the region. In the centuries before Roman annexation, the frontier between Messapic and Oscan ran through Frentania-Irpinia-Lucania-Apulia, the transboundary region between Daunians and Oscan-speaking Italic groups. An "Oscanization" and "Samnitization" process gradually took place which is attested in contemporary sources via the attestation of dual identities for settlements. In these regions an Oscan/Lucanian population and a large Daunian element intermixed in different ways. Larinum, a settlement which has produced a large body of Oscan onomastics is described as a "Daunian city" and Horace who was from Venusia in the transboundary area between the Daunians and the Lucanians described himself as "Lucanian or Apulian". The creation of Roman colonies in southern Italy after the early 4th century BCE had a great impact in the Latinization of the area.[4]

    There are numerous testimonies among ancient authors (Pseudo-Scylax, Virgil, Festus, Servius) of a presence of the Daunians beyond the Apennines in Campania and Latium where some towns claimed Diomedian origins. The most notable instance is Ardea, the centre of the Rutulians who were considered Daunians: Vergil writes that Turnus' father was Daunus. Festus writes that a King Lucerus of Ardea fought along with Romulus against Titus Tatius and this is the origin of the name of the Roman Luceres.

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    https://anticopedie.fr/mondes/mondes-gb/daunie-doc.html

    DAUNIA


    Daunia is located mainly in the peninsula close to today's Foggia, on the Adriatic shore of Italy. In the Antiquity, it extended deeply towards the interior,up to the area of Molise.

    This area was already occupied at the stone age. As commonly admitted, towards 1300 B.C. an Illyrian people, the Iapyges - to which, according to some sources, mycenians would have joined - settled down in Apulia, and later divided into three populations : the Daunians in the north, the Peucetians in the center, and the Messapians in the south. The tradition considers that the Ofanto river was the natural border between Daunia and Peucetia.

    As far as Daunia is concerned, a doubt remains however.
    According to some authors, the correct translation of the greek source would be that Iapyges settled "up to Daunia" , without specifying if Daunia was or not included in the Iapyges territory.
    Daunos and Diomedes
    According to the legend, when Diomedes, king of Argos, came back from the Trojan war, he found he had been enthroned by the son of Sthenelos, the lover of his unfaithful wife. Being forced to leave Greece, he reached the islands of Tremiti (which will become the "Diomedes' islands"), then landed on the shore and founded Argyrippa (or Argos Hippium, today Arpi). Encountering the native populations, he requests the assistance of king Daunos, legendary founder of Daunia, but later Daunos (or his son) killed him by accident during hunting.
    According to another version (Diomedes is a recurrent character in the legends from the Adriatic coast!), Diomedes, on the contrary, would have assisted king Daunos, and married then his daughter Drione. He would then have founded the town of Castrum Drionis (Casteldrione, today San Severo) and would have built two temples there. As a recognition for his help against theMessapians, he would have then received a part of Apulia, the "fields of Diomedes").

    Daunians and Greeks
    We know that the Daunian people occupied the cape of Gargano, then extended its influence on the neighbourhood, while remaining a whole of small unified villages. Between the 5th and the 4th century B.C., these small villages enclose themselves with city walls and the main urban centres are connected by roads
    The Daunians meet the greek people when, from the 8th to the 5th century B.C., the Greek launched their large colonization expansion around the western Mediterranean sea. In Sicily, for instance, the greeks met with people who had already partially assimilated some elements of the mycenian civilization, but who migrated later towards the inland during the "dark times" (1100 to 800 B.C.). On the contrary, in Apulia, the Greeks encountered organized people with their cities and their own structure. They could found there only one colony, Taranto.
    This will not prevent the hellenic culture from penetrating deeply among the Iapyges, which will adopt the annual rotation of cultures and the fallow land. On the heights, breeding of sheep and agriculture replace the Mediterranean bushland.

    Roman Daunia
    When the Romans occupy the Italian peninsula during the 3rd century B.C., the daunian culture evolves radically. Road networks reinforce the links between the farming areas and the cities.
    In the 2nd century A.D., the Via Traiana connects Benevento to Brindisi and pass through Canosa, bringing an alternative to the old Via Appia. Daunia stands thus no more away from the other countries.
    Even today, most of the road network, in particular around Canosa and Canne (the most important center of this period, still very rich in archaeological treasures), is an inheritance from the roman layouts

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