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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Interesting observation. I tend to agree with you here. However, I believe E-V13 might've been just as common as J2b2 if not more, especially during the Iron Age. We'll see what future aDNA tells us.

    Well, this Dinara culture became somewhat more widespread and probably had greater influence in the west, however in the southeast, in modern day Albania there were more robust outposts of Cetina culture (like Maliq), and I’d expect there possibly more V13. Also southward expansion of Dinara culture was for ex. Nezir III, so it is likely many Albanian J-L283 derive from there.




    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    You seem to be only looking at YFull tree, which tells a quarter of the picture. It is heavily biased towards Italy due to 1200 Sardinian Sequences from the Francalacci study. Although J2b2-L283 is pretty diverse in Italy/Sardinia and could've very well expanded from there as suggested by these older clades, there is a major problem with the theory that it expanded from Italy or the west. Besides Bronze Age Croatia, J2b2-L283 has also been found in Late Bronze Age Armenia. Furthermore, the ancient Armenian sample is negative for Z627, which means he was J-L283* and "older" than any modern sample. If it expanded from Italy, IMO it would be very unlikely a J-L283* would end up all the way in Bronze Age Armenia with Steppe admixture and Steppe mtDNA. Also, at J-M241 Project we now have samples upstream of Z628 aka Z597 basically all over Europe. National Geographic Geno 2 samples suggest the same, there is even two L283+ and Z585- samples in the Balkans, so these "older" clades are not restricted mainly to Italy as the YFull tree suggests.
    Considering the above mentioned data, no Neolithic aDNA J2b2 in Europe/Anatolia, and that it must have come from the East (oldest J2b found in early Neolithic western Iran), at this point I believe the area of the Steppe or north Caucuses is the most likely expansion of J2b2-L283 in a migration that mostly went to Balkans/Italy, with Z597>Z2507 subclades going through some founder effects after reaching the western Balkans in the Bronze Age.

    Thanks for bringing up that J-L283*, somebody once mentioned it to me but I forgot it. Also I didn’t know about those two Z585-. Where are they from?


    My points:
    1. While it is true that Sardinian sample is over-represented, and here and there various clades of various hg's are found, this case is an exception. I know of ftdna results, but I have never seen thus far any such haplotype there. Due to age they probably have some more specific STR values, so it would be interesting to search for them in anonymous studies.
    Still this sample has shown that on Sardinia itself Z597- leads Z597+ by 7 to 3. Because the sample is so large, this ratio of older vs younger clades is reliable. Meanwhile the situation is opposite on the Balkans: 2 to 8 (on Yfull alone). IMO this does not seem accidental. Greater diversity of older clades always implies the origin point regardless of the spread and number of younger clades.


    2. Sardinia has oldest clades, quick summary
    - YP29 TMRCA 6000 ybp
    -- J-Z600* TMRCA 5400 ybp
    -- J-YP157 TMRCA 5400 ybp
    --- J-M5903 (YP113) TMRCA 5400 ybp
    --- J-YP50


    This sort of diversity and estimated TMRCA values does IMO clearly suggest that L283 was present in Sardinia within the 4000-3400 BC timeframe. Which predates any arrival of Indoeuropeans, that is Bell Beakers, on Sardinia. Sardinia was more isolated from the mainland Europe, and today this is obvious genetically. This fact alone may be judged as sufficient to exclude "steppe" arrival.
    True expansion of course begins c. 2400 BC with J-Z597 whose TMRCA does approximately correspond with the contact with Bell Beakers, indoeuropeanisation of J2-L283, and subsequent expansion towards Balkans where it arrives with steppe admixture including one mtdna that was found in Bell Beakers in Bavaria.


    3. Sardinian sample also some very early clades under J-Z597: J-Y15058 and J-YP9 under Z638. This IMO suggests that few of these newer clades under Z597 remained there after contact with Bell Beakers.


    4. Armenian L283* can be an indoeuropeanised local, who never migrated anywhere, due to heavy presence of the entire J2 in this broader area. Actually what would be better for steppe hypothesis is that some younger clade, under J-Z597 was found.


    5. As J-Z597 does descend from older Sardinian clades, in order for it to be of steppe origin, what is required is a migration from Sardinia, let's say by sea, through Mediterranean Sea, Aegean Sea, Bosporus, Black Sea north towards the Pontic Steppe where it is indoeuropeanised there. Incredibly some of younger clades from the steppe come back to Sardinia. First migration is extremely unlikely and if it did occur then some other Sardinian haplogroups should have been be part of is as well.


    6. L283 might have arrived later in Neolithic to Sardinia in comparison to early main waves.


    So sum it up Sardinian clades and their TMRCA pose IMO an insurmountable obstacle for the Steppe origin theory.




    In addition the archaeological evidence I presented does imply clear Apennine Peninsula ties of this culture in particular where balkan L283 was found. In fact archaeologist B.Čović suggested at the end of his work that specifically these ties should be further researched. It's seemingly parent culture has strong Bell Beaker element, and remember one sample has BB mtdna.




    I believe only combining the aDNA, modern dna data, archaeological, historical, linguistic, onomastical evidence can produce adequate results. So it is of fundamental importance that each aDNA find is precisely identified, archeological evidence is crucial for this prehistorical timeframe, and in this case it does agree with my theory.


    Additionally archaeological evidence should be used to identify links of subsequent Late Bronze, early Iron Age Illyrian sub-cultures, in order to identify Illyrian tribes that were likely to have been "heavy" with J-L283.
    True we need more aDNA, but there were so many Illyrian tribes, and we are not likely to get that much data any time soon.

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    7 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Thanks for bringing up that J-L283*, somebody once mentioned it to me but I forgot it. Also I didn’t know about those two Z585-. Where are they from?
    They're Geno 2 testers, one is from Romania, the other from Serbia. According to the SNPs they have tested, they are somewhere in between J-L283 and Z585. I haven't seen them in any FTDNA projects, but I know they exist thanks to Rafc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    This sort of diversity and estimated TMRCA values does IMO clearly suggest that L283 was present in Sardinia within the 4000-3400 BC timeframe. Which predates any arrival of Indoeuropeans, that is Bell Beakers, on Sardinia. Sardinia was more isolated from the mainland Europe, and today this is obvious genetically. This fact alone may be judged as sufficient to exclude "steppe" arrival.
    True expansion of course begins c. 2400 BC with J-Z597 whose TMRCA does approximately correspond with the contact with Bell Beakers, indoeuropeanisation of J2-L283, and subsequent expansion towards Balkans where it arrives with steppe admixture including one mtdna that was found in Bell Beakers in Bavaria.

    3. Sardinian sample also some very early clades under J-Z597: J-Y15058 and J-YP9 under Z638. This IMO suggests that few of these newer clades under Z597 remained there after contact with Bell Beakers.

    4. Armenian L283* can be an indoeuropeanised local, who never migrated anywhere, due to heavy presence of the entire J2 in this broader area. Actually what would be better for steppe hypothesis is that some younger clade, under J-Z597 was found.
    First of all, if you knew anything about phylogeny, you would know the bolded sentences don't go together. You claim that J-L283 was in Sardinia since ~4000 BC, which is roughly at the time of expansion. But then you claim the LBA Armenian was just a local J-L283* who never migrated and got "Indo-Europeanized". Under your theory, the Armenian J-L283* cannot be a local remnant before this haplogroup would've made it to Sardinia, as he was positive for many SNPs at the J-L283 level, so he must've been a "fully developed" J-L283 and a back-migrant from Sardinia, which is very unlikely given my arguments in the previous post, and trumps any points based on modern diversity, archaeology, etc, that you bring up.

    There is actually an Armenian from Georgia tested: L283+ and Z1296-. His STRs clearly suggest he is Y15058- The only unknown is Z638 but in all likelihood he is negative for this also, so he should be somewhere in between L283 and Z2507. Currently, hard to predict those levels based on STRs. Furthermore, the FTDNA J2 SNP Pack doesn't test for anything in between L283 and Z628 aka Z597. So it's hard to know where exactly such haplotypes belong, besides that they're spread basically all over Europe.

    I'm not ruling out the Italian/Sardinian expansion. In fact, I held this theory way before you did. But the LBA Armenian J-L283* changed my opinion. And therefore now combined with the BA Croatian and other data, I think the Steppe or North Caucasus expansion is more likely.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    @Aspurg, go back to Poreklo and sell your theories there, just like you sell other wishful thinking theories, by recycling cherry-picking low-res STRs from scientific studies (Albanians = Bessi, Carpi, etc). I know there you will get a pass because it fits the agenda of your audience. Here, in the meantime, you got schooled and owned!

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    No he does not.
    Last edited by Yaan; 06-03-18 at 21:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I seem to have made an error earlier while posting here.. Anyway, regarding this Veliki Vanik find, it is archaeologically identifiable:

    Footnote from "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe"
    Radiocarbon dates and preserved artifacts (hair ornament made of coiled copper wire and fragments of pottery) date these burials to the Early/Middle Bronze Age.28


    28
    Mucić, K. & Kovačević Bokarica, N. Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine
    na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja. In: Arheološka istraživanja na trasi
    autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini (ed M Tomasović) 125-212 (Gradski muzej Makarska,
    2011).


    One last year's work:
    Majića gradina (Drinovci) - novo nalazište licenske keramike u Hercegovini (new find of Litzen ware in Herzegovina)


    U kulturnom i kronološkom pogledu navedene razlike nisu toliko izražene, barem ne u kontekstu promatrane kulturne regije, gdje često i ne postoji uža distinkcija prema načinu izvođenja ornamenta, nego se konvencionalno takva vrsta nalaza, bilo da su oni ukrašeni otiskivanjem dvonitne uzice ili otkane tkanice/vrpce, često deklarira kao licenska.16


    16 Usp. B. Čović, "Posuška kultura", 70, 75, 77-78, T. VIII, 5, T. X, 5, 4; Marinko Tomasović, "Arheološka topografija lijeve strane donjeg toka Cetine", u: Jacqueline Balen - Hrvoje Potrebica (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja u cetinskoj krajini, Izdanja Hrvatskoga arheološkog društva, vol. 27, Zagreb, 2011., T. I, 5-6; Vedran Katavić - Ana Sunko Katavić - Andrea Devlahović, "Istraživanje grobnog tumula, dviju vrtača, gradine i gradinice u Gornjim Rašćanima kod Vrgorca", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 46, kat. jed. 7; Konstanta Mucić - Nela Kovačević Bokarica, "Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 130, kat. jed. 2; B. Marijanović, nav. dj., str. 105, T. LXXXV, 5; T. LXXXVI, 1,2; Ivan Šuta, "Korištenje vrtača u prapovijesti Dalmacije", u: Tusculum, 6, Solin, 2013., str. 11-12, sl. 6.


    So Litzen ware clearly places Veliki Vanik in the context of what B.Čović called Posušje culture, while Govedarica classified it as Dinara culture. Dinara culture was markedly different in comparison to neighboring Cetina culture, as you know Raf Ceustermans of E-M35 Project already put up a hypothesis of connection between E-V13 and Cetina culture. Tying J-M241 with coexisting neighboring Dinara culture actually adds indirectly additional weight to his hypothesis.
    It must be said that Dinara culture has clear ties to Apennine Peninsula. It's origin can be through some connections be further traced to Ljubljana culture. Ljubljana culture had strong and clear Bell Bekaer element. In it's first phase Vuledol element was present, then at the end of it came the Bell Beaker element, some archaeologists suggested they coexisted and together proceeded to the south, but Slovenian archaeologist Paola Korošec was of the opinion that Bell Beaker element destroyed Vučedol element. W3a is a steppe mtdna, but it was also found in one Bell Beaker sample from Deggendorf, Bavaria. She traced this Bell Beaker element to north Italian Remedello culture. And that brings us to J-M241, as all older clades are found in Italy, I strongly believe J-M241 is this Bell Beaker element. So it was an indoeuropean element coming not from the steppes but from the West. All in all, I believe this J2b2 find explains itself very nicely, the nature of this culture and location of early M241 clades just fit nicely.

    It is without doubt proto-Illyrian, and likely J-M241 might have been the most numerous Illyrian hg. Additionally this sample being J-Y15058* points that even several clades under it that have ties to Eastern Balkans (Bulgarians, Aromanians) ultimately have western origins.

    E-V13 is another theme, but I think Indoeuropean element V13 encountered was markedly different from Bell Beakers. Likely all E-V13's are a "grecoid" population originally, they migrated much more eastwards and southwards, but those clades that stayed of course played their part in ethnogenesis of Illyrians.
    Aspurg, in addition to the Armenian results brought up by Trojet, according to Maciamo, in the J2 Eupedia page, the J2b2-L283 found in Coratia had substantial Steppe DNA autosomally. This person was found together with a woman whose autosomal DNA was also substantially Steppe. Both these results suggest they came from the Steppe not too long before 1700 BC.

    Unless J2b2 migrated from Sardinia all the way to Armenia, and then back to Croatia, your theory does not hold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Map of the haplogroup
    I find very interesting this map posted by Fustan. Do you think exist some connection between this map and this article? Basically is the same region of France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    First of all, if you knew anything about phylogeny, you would know the bolded sentences don't go together. You claim that J-L283 was in Sardinia since ~4000 BC, which is roughly at the time of expansion. But then you claim the LBA Armenian was just a local J-L283* who never migrated and got "Indo-Europeanized". Under your theory, the Armenian J-L283* cannot be a local remnant before this haplogroup would've made it to Sardinia, as he was positive for many SNPs at the J-L283 level, so he must've been a "fully developed" J-L283 and a back-migrant from Sardinia, which is very unlikely given my arguments in the previous post, and trumps any points based on modern diversity, archaeology, etc, that you bring up.

    I was going by what you had told me: that he is "older" and Z627-. I saw more of his SNPs so he seems to be on J-Z600 level. That reduces the timeframe somewhat and increases the likelihood for out-of-steppe migration along with that Georgian (depending where he is exactly) but still does not guarantee it. You know there were some expansions of J2 clades in that timeframe westwards.
    But even if it is from the Steppe, then older clades and archaeology would suggest arrival to Italy first and then subsequently expansion towards Balkans. Still I'd have to go for BB's.






    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    go back to Poreklo and sell your theories there, just like you sell other wishful thinking theories, by recycling cherry-picking low-res STRs from scientific studies (Albanians = Bessi, Carpi, etc).
    As the number of privately tested individuals in the entire Balkan region is still low, one must rely on scientific studies. I try to take into account studies which have at least 17 markers, but depending on haplogroup even those with less markers can be quite useful (also depending on specific markers). Also studies with regional and sub-ethnic variation are more relevant.
    And any anonymous study with a sufficiently large and diversified sample is more relevant than ftdna projects (unless they are very large) if it's about percentages of hg's.
    Poreklo has tested far more people. On the other hand for the genetic makeup of Tosks one has to look at studies. How many Tosks do you have on your project? 20?


    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    (Albanians = Bessi, Carpi, etc).

    Talk to NikolaVuk about it, he knows alot more in this regard. It is a legitimate hypothesis put up by a German historian Gottfried Schramm. That there was a migration of the Thracian Bessi tribe in Early Medieval period towards the Arbanon area.
    But even if it is correct, as I've said actually, still Albanians seem to be genetically even likely by absolute majority (50%+) Illyrian. Unlike the Aromanians for example who seem to possess strong Thracian element.
    Besides, are you trying to claim that 95 % of Albanians are of Illyrian origin? Albanians have some Slavic admixture, how can they not have Thracian as well? Is any ethnic group "pure"? No, except some very isolated small groups.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I know there you will get a pass because it fits the agenda of your audience. Here, in the meantime, you got schooled and owned!
    Really? "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe" has been out for how long? 10 months? It's not my top priority, but I got interested in this sample, and it took me few hours to identify it archaeologically and cross-check with other data. What have you been doing for 10 months? No one prevented you or anyone else from looking at footnotes and identifying this sample, and then to proceed from there with theories, as archaeological evidence will narrow down the options.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Both these results suggest they came from the Steppe
    They suggest sample had steppe admixture. So it was Indoeuropean/indoeuropeanised. One G2a sample in Tripillia had similar admixture. That itself doesn't suggest G2a came from the Steppe.
    Proper identification of the sample suggests where it comes from. Playing with numbers, there are so many variables, this narrows down the options. Archaeology might be crucial to determine where he is from by more distant ancestry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    not too long before 1700 BC.
    It is likely his ancestors were there 400 or more years before 1700 BC.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Unless J2b2 migrated from Sardinia all the way to Armenia, and then back to Croatia, your theory does not hold.
    Older clades do exist in Sardinia. Even if they arrived around 3000 BC that is still before Indoeuropean presence on Sardinia. Armenian still separated some time ago, he had his own path.


    OK let's assume it comes from the Steppe, it still goes to Italy/Sardinia first and then expands towards Balkan. Sardinia has much higher ratio of older clades than Balkans for now. And of course there is archaeological support. Plus first IE's on Sardinia were BB's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    They suggest sample had steppe admixture. So it was Indoeuropean/indoeuropeanised. One G2a sample in Tripillia had similar admixture. That itself doesn't suggest G2a came from the Steppe.
    First, it doesn't suggest admixture, it shows it. It suggests, meaning it cannot be observed from it, but it can be hypothesized, that there was a migration from the Steppe. Second, Tripillia is INSIDE the Steppe, of course it would have Steppe admixture. You don't need a migration from the Steppe to explain that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Older clades do exist in Sardinia. Even if they arrived around 3000 BC that is still before Indoeuropean presence on Sardinia. Armenian still separated some time ago, he had his own path. OK let's assume it comes from the Steppe, it still goes to Italy/Sardinia first and then expands towards Balkan. Sardinia has much higher ratio of older clades than Balkans for now. And of course there is archaeological support. Plus first IE's on Sardinia were BB's.
    If you want to see where the J2b2-L283 found in Croatia came from, you need to know its exact clade. Which one did it have? Was it one that today is only found in Sardinia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    Talk to NikolaVuk about it, he knows alot more in this regard.
    Who is and wat exactly said this NikolaVuk?
    It is a legitimate hypothesis put up by a German historian Gottfried Schramm.
    Malcolm has explained perfectly that the theory of Schramm is wrong.
    That there was a migration of the Thracian Bessi tribe in Early Medieval period towards the Arbanon area.
    Any primary source to support this theory of the migration of Bessi in Arbanon area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    First, it doesn't suggest admixture, it shows it. It suggests, meaning it cannot be observed from it, but it can be hypothesized, that there was a migration from the Steppe.
    Valid point, yet nitpicking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Second, Tripillia is INSIDE the Steppe, of course it would have Steppe admixture.
    If it's so necessary, why other samples have significantly less of it? Because it's a different archaeological complex. Different population/culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    You don't need a migration from the Steppe to explain that!
    But you do need a process of Indo-europeanisation.
    Bell Beakers in Europe did not have Steppe admixture already? They did. You don't require migration from the Steppe to have Steppe admixture or Steppe mtdna, just mixing with some other population that has it is sufficient regardless from where it is. And there was plenty of IE population in Europe already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    If you want to see where the J2b2-L283 found in Croatia came from, you need to know its exact clade. Which one did it have? Was it one that today is only found in Sardinia?
    As said Y15058*, actually there is one Sardinian who is Y15058*, and of course it descends from older clades.

    Also for the old presence in the steppe you need older clades there. You have one larger cluster in Mordvins/Tatars that is too young for that. I've been told other than that, L283 is not widespread in the Steppe/Caucasus. I might want to check precisely though. It is widespread in the Europe, and so were BB's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    No he does not.
    Why you edited your post?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    But you do need a process of Indo-europeanisation.
    Why are you mixing culture and language with genetic data? We were discussing the place of origin of the Croatian Bronze Age J2b2-L283. Steppe admixture can be present without Steppe culture, plus I imagine the Steppe had non-indo-european cultures too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Bell Beakers in Europe did not have Steppe admixture already? They did. You don't require migration from the Steppe to have Steppe admixture or Steppe mtdna, just mixing with some other population that has it is sufficient regardless from where it is. And there was plenty of IE population in Europe already.
    This makes sense, but I am not sure it matches the data. These two people in Croatia had about 30% Steppe & 15% Eastern European HG ancestry. Did the population of Sardinia have similar figures?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    As said Y15058*, actually there is one Sardinian who is Y15058*, and of course it descends from older clades.
    I didn't understand this sentence. Are you just saying that there is a Sardinian with Y15058* or that the Croatian Bronze Age one was Y15058 as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Who is and wat exactly said this NikolaVuk?
    Mod on poreklo. Go read yourself. Can't post any links yet here. (10 posts rule) :) He mentioned archaeologically that there are traces of Bessi tribe in the Shop region, and that for example they had used circular kernos for storing burned remains etc., generally this evidence suggesting they did manage to keep their identity late in Antic period - that is resist Romanisation. Data is from one newer study.
    I know Trojet does read that forum. :) Actually there is an Albanian there who I know is very knowledgeable about various Albanian clans. Some Bosniaks are there too.

    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Malcolm has explained perfectly that the theory of Schramm is wrong.
    I haven't read Schramm's book, only small parts of it. I know some of his main points. And I haven't read Malcom's response, what did he say?

    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Any primary source to support this theory of the migration of Bessi in Arbanon area?
    I think he connected it with turbulent events of Byzantine-Bulgarian conflicts, some population movements.

    But this is totally off-topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Why are you mixing culture and language with genetic data? We were discussing the place of origin of the Croatian Bronze Age J2b2-L283. Steppe admixture can be present without Steppe culture, plus I imagine the Steppe had non-indo-european cultures too.
    Well usually people do connect it with culture, don't they? It's argued that genetic borders followed cultural borders, but as you say that might not have been always the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    This makes sense, but I am not sure it matches the data. These two people in Croatia had about 30% Steppe & 15% Eastern European HG ancestry. Did the population of Sardinia have similar figures?
    Not sure I've seen Sardinian sample from that time frame but point is here:
    Find is from 1600-1700 BC, expansion of Z597 begins 2400 BC. Some of those older clade Sardinians might not have mixed with IE's much (in the case of out-of-sardinia theory). Actually what could be significant is to compare that autosomal data in different calculators and try to figure out something more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I didn't understand this sentence. Are you just saying that there is a Sardinian with Y15058* or that the Croatian Bronze Age one was Y15058 as well?
    Both are Y15058*. Few days ago I think SNP calls showed Croatian sample to be Y15058*. That's how I started to do research on Veliki Vanik find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Not sure I've seen Sardinian sample from that time frame but point is here:
    Find is from 1600-1700 BC, expansion of Z597 begins 2400 BC. Some of those older clade Sardinians might not have mixed with IE's much (in the case of out-of-sardinia theory). Actually what could be significant is to compare that autosomal data in different calculators and try to figure out something more.
    Well even today Sardinians have considerably less Steppe DNA than other Europeans. That contradicts the Steppe admixture of the J2b2-L283 and the female next to him. For your theory to be true one of these two scenarios has to have taken place:

    1- Pre-bronze age and early bronze age J2b2 Sardinians had heavy Steppe admixture. Somehow this admixture disappeared in later.
    2- J2b2 Sardinians migrated to the Balkans and got the Steppe admixture from there.

    Now, since most Sardinian DNA is pre-BA option 1 is very, very unlikely.

    For option 2 to be true BA Balkans would have to have almost full Steppe DNA. If the supposed mix of western Sardinians and native Balkan people produced two individuals with close to 50% Steppe and North Eastern ancestry, that means the natives would have to be, depending on how long the "sardinians" had been there, from 50% to 100% Steppe and NE ancestry. With so much DNA from those regions, and some more, as you claim, from Sardinia, that leaves a very small space for haplogroups G, E, J1, etc. What does the data show? Haplogroups G, E, J are the majority of finds from that period and shortly before. So, the data we have might have been outliers just by chance. But assuming it isn't, option 2 is also very, very unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Well even today Sardinians have considerably less Steppe DNA than other Europeans. That contradicts the Steppe admixture of the J2b2-L283 and the female next to him. For your theory to be true one of these two scenarios has to have taken place:

    1- Pre-bronze age and early bronze age J2b2 Sardinians had heavy Steppe admixture. Somehow this admixture disappeared in later.
    2- J2b2 Sardinians migrated to the Balkans and got the Steppe admixture from there.

    Now, since most Sardinian DNA is pre-BA option 1 is very, very unlikely.
    No, you didn't get my point. If we speak of out of Sardinia scenario, all that it takes is that L283 with Sardinian genetics mix with Bell Beakers who arrive to Sardinia, they mix with BB's, go onto Italian mainland, and only subsequently to Balkans. Forget about Sardinian genetics, L283 mixes with Bell Beakers and after some time they are autosomally dominantly Bell Beakers. As BB's they bring their Steppe admixture to Balkans.

    For ex. rafc has made a hypothesis about the culture from which V13 spread out, now you have a find in an identifiable archaeological culture, you should proceed from there about researching about it's whereabouts, instead of wildly speculating. Anyone who doesn't take into account archaeological evidence is disqualified as a serious interlocutor.

    I have delivered my main point: identification of this find. The rest is up to you..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Mod on poreklo. Go read yourself. Can't post any links yet here. (10 posts rule) :) He mentioned archaeologically that there are traces of Bessi tribe in the Shop region, and that for example they had used circular kernos for storing burned remains etc., generally this evidence suggesting they did manage to keep their identity late in Antic period - that is resist Romanisation. Data is from one newer study.
    I know Trojet does read that forum. :) Actually there is an Albanian there who I know is very knowledgeable about various Albanian clans. Some Bosniaks are there too.



    I haven't read Schramm's book, only small parts of it. I know some of his main points. And I haven't read Malcom's response, what did he say?



    I think he connected it with turbulent events of Byzantine-Bulgarian conflicts, some population movements.

    But this is totally off-topic.
    So, you don`t know nothing about this legitimate hypothesis. You have never read Schramm let alone Malcolm. How is it possible that you come here and want to talk about these things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    No, you didn't get my point. If we speak of out of Sardinia scenario, all that it takes is that L283 with Sardinian genetics mix with Bell Beakers who arrive to Sardinia, they mix with BB's, go onto Italian mainland, and only subsequently to Balkans. Forget about Sardinian genetics, L283 mixes with Bell Beakers and after some time they are autosomally dominantly Bell Beakers. As BB's they bring their Steppe admixture to Balkans.
    Do we know how much Steppe ancestry the Italian mainland had at this time?

    And since you're claiming an expansion out of Sardinia and want to consider archaeology, which archaeologically verified cultural expansion are you associating this with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    No, you didn't get my point. If we speak of out of Sardinia scenario, all that it takes is that L283 with Sardinian genetics mix with Bell Beakers who arrive to Sardinia, they mix with BB's, go onto Italian mainland, and only subsequently to Balkans. Forget about Sardinian genetics, L283 mixes with Bell Beakers and after some time they are autosomally dominantly Bell Beakers. As BB's they bring their Steppe admixture to Balkans.
    I hope you realize that for your theory to work, many things have to break your way. That is: L283 makes a sudden expansion from Caucuses to Sardinia during Early Bronze Age by bypassing Balkans, somehow gets Indo-Europeanised in Sardinia, turns back east to mainland Italy, then on to the Balkans, all within a 2000 year period. But it couldn't itself have been involved in a westward Bronze Age I-E expansion?! Oh, and also the LBA Armenian L283 all of a sudden gets Indo-Europeanised as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Anyone who doesn't take into account archaeological evidence is disqualified as a serious interlocutor.I have delivered my main point: identification of this find. The rest is up to you..
    Firstly, you disqualified yourself when you ignored or "forgot" the LBA Armenian. Ancient DNA is always crucial in understanding haplogroup origins/expansions. Secondly, as I pointed here, you also disqualified yourself from this thread when you couldn't even understand simple phylogeny, as I specifically told you the LBA Armenian was J-L283* meaning a fully developed one, as in sharing the ~6000 ybp TMRCA. I didn't want to get into specifics as far as the J-Z600 subclade goes since he doesn't exactly belong there (he splits it), because I figured all that may not be very easy for you to decipher ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I know Trojet does read that forum. :)
    Yes, I read that Serbian forum, specifically "Albanians and Arberesh" thread, whenever I need a good laugh
    Last edited by Trojet; 09-03-18 at 04:09.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The theory about J2b2-L283 coming from Sardinia to be indo-europeanised by Bell-Beakers in Italy is unlikely.

    The J2b2-L283 in sardinians can be explained by their contact with the Villanova culture of northerneastern Italy. They probably got their J2b2-L283 from the villanovans.

    How did the villanovans get their J2b2-L283?
    One of the main components which would later form the villanovan culture, came from the Urnfield culture of central europe. So a more likely scenario would be J2b2-L283 penetrating northerneastern Italy from the Urnfield culture at an early stage(bringing early clades). Those Urnfield J2b2-L283 would then be assimilated by the Nuragic-like peoples of northerneastern Italy, to form the non-indo-european Villanova culture(which is regarded early etruscan by practically all scholars).

    While some of the Urnfield J2b2-L283 went to northern Italy and were assimilated into non-IE societies there, other J2b2-L283 just went to the balkans instead, and contributed to early balkan IE languages there.
    When we look at the archaeological record, we actually also see the urnfield culture complex extend its arms down both to northern Italy, and to the northern balkans.

    The problem with this culture is that they burn their dead bodies, and put them in jars. They dont bury them. So if this was a J2b2-L283-rich culture, we will probably not know until we invent some sci-fi stuff which makes us capable of DNA testing ashes. Testing the tumulus culture on the other hand is possible.

    Also the urnfield culture followed the tumulus culture. Both of these cultures have been proposed to have contributed to the Illyrian ethnogenesis. So if we fint J2b2-L283 in bronze age croatia, and then also in the earlier tumulus culture, then we can almost be certain that the intermediate urnfielders also had J2b2-L283. That is because proto-illyrians and urnfield culture both had a huge tumulus culture element.

    So judging by this, a more likely scenario would be that the tumulus culture donated a lot of the J2b2-L283 to the succeeding Urnfield culture in central europe, while some tumulus J2b2-L283 went straight to the balkans before the central european tumuli builders turned into urnfielders.
    Then when a lot of Urnfield people later moved to northern italy, they would bring with them a lot of basal L283 clades they had gotten from the big number of immigrants from central europe. The J2b2-L283 did not do very well in northern Italy. They were assimilated quickly into the non-IE villanova culture, and judging from ancient dna and modern dna, they never multiplied their numbers very much. But they still have their diversity, due to their huge numbers before their assimilation in the bronze age.

    The J2b2-L283 which went to the northern balkans with an earlier wave(tumuli builders), are another matter. They were a lot more successful in multiplying their numbers. And they stayed ie speaking. The growth of L283 in the northern balkans compared to the growth of L283 other places is almost like an explosion. One of these early explosions could also have diluted some of the earlier and more basal clades of J2b2-L283 in the balkans, leaving us with more diversity in the regions where J2b2'L283 didnt multiply as much (northern Italy, sardinia etc.).

    Finally, of course it is hard to know exactly how the haplogroups moved around. Many material cultures moved around and overlapped a lot in what would later be illyrian lands, during those centuries.
    And nearly all central and eastern european bronze age cultures have been proposed as ancestors to the illyrians by scholars through time.
    So without sufficient ancient DNA, it is hard to know exactly which ones, and how many, of those cultures contributed the various haplogroups at which times to the northwestern balkans.
    But right now it indeed seems that L283 came to northwestern balkans either from some people on the steppe or at least from some people more east/northeast.
    Last edited by Balkanite; 08-03-18 at 11:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Mod on poreklo. Go read yourself. Can't post any links yet here. (10 posts rule) :) He mentioned archaeologically that there are traces of Bessi tribe in the Shop region, and that for example they had used circular kernos for storing burned remains etc., generally this evidence suggesting they did manage to keep their identity late in Antic period - that is resist Romanisation. Data is from one newer study.
    I know Trojet does read that forum. :) Actually there is an Albanian there who I know is very knowledgeable about various Albanian clans. Some Bosniaks are there too.
    There are no Albanians at Poreklo, guy you speaking of is Serb pretending to be Albanian. Plus his ‘knowledge’ about our clans is entirely based on Serbian ethnographers (Urosevic, Bajraktarevic, Vukanovic, Jovicevic etc).

    Guy was using one of our project members results along with his name and pretended they were his. Miserable mofo
    Last edited by Leka; 09-03-18 at 21:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    There are no Albanians at Poreklo, guy you speaking of is Serb pretending to be Albanian. Plus his ‘knowledge’ about our clans is entirely based on Serbian ethnographers (Urosevic, Bajraktarevic, Vukanovic, Jovicevic etc).

    Guy was using one of our project members results along with his name and pretended they were his. Miserable mofo
    Creepy guy Rugovac, pretending to be Albanian... Cant believe he classified me on foleja

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    It looks that way. Most basal and early clades of J-L283 look sardinian.
    Its likely a terrible event happened for J-L283 lineages that maybe caused them to migrate and seek refuge on to sardinia. Since its isolated in the medd sea. J-L283 lineages arent sporadic. They are very rare. But balkan J-L283 lineages are rather younger lineages. You dont see any older clads there. But its likely made way to northern italy and than back into the balkans. Basal J-L283 in people like british and russian are likely just rare offshoots that by chance migrated so far off. Could be for various reasons. Could be because they eventually got obsorbed by rome. And thats where they just ended up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    It looks that way. Most basal and early clades of J-L283 look sardinian.
    Its likely a terrible event happened for J-L283 lineages that maybe caused them to migrate and seek refuge on to sardinia. Since its isolated in the medd sea. J-L283 lineages arent sporadic. They are very rare. But balkan J-L283 lineages are rather younger lineages. You dont see any older clads there. But its likely made way to northern italy and than back into the balkans. Basal J-L283 in people like british and russian are likely just rare offshoots that by chance migrated so far off. Could be for various reasons. Could be because they eventually got obsorbed by rome. And thats where they just ended up.
    Can you explain how the ancient armenian L283 sample fits in with this sardinian hypothesis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Can you explain how the ancient armenian L283 sample fits in with this sardinian hypothesis
    I have a question. Are the sardinian samples from Francalacci et al (2013/2015, ancient samples or modern modern sardinians?

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