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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Foggia, Cerignola, Manfredonia, … are in my Puglia Genetic Community.

    so you are near Foggia province ( north Puglia )...........I thought you where further south ................what do you mean near ?

    my family ( paternal line ) still sits between Montebelluna and Treviso cities.........we have never said we are from either and we are less than 10k from either city
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    so you are near Foggia province ( north Puglia )...........I thought you where further south ................what do you mean near ?

    my family ( paternal line ) still sits between Montebelluna and Treviso cities.........we have never said we are from either and we are less than 10k from either city
    I didn't say near … that’s my AncestryDNA Genetic Community map, … I’m from LECCE, … but there are Foggiani, Baresi, and other Apulians similar to me, though they lack my Kung Fu skills, lol

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    FB_IMG_1664272782059.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    maybe the term iapodes and iapydes are not related to each other
    the Daunians where clearly Iapodes in origin as even their women tattooed their bodies .........while the Messapics ( are Iapydes, what the greeks called them ) did not do any tattooing that i can recall
    Below is the only helmet made by the Iapodes using Noric steel ( from Noricum ) in the northern balkans ..................all other "illyrian" helmets are made by corinthian Greeks in Corinth or the pelopenese
    So you mean all the illyrians helmets found in Cinamake Kukes should be considered "greek" helmets. So, all the production of iron and copper of the Kukes area should be considered "greek iron and copper". What about todays copper mines in Kukes? Is it still "greek copper"?

    The Cinamake Helmet in the photo

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    the sample is from Salapia which is in Foggia area .............Salapia in next to modern

    Cerignola (Italian pronunciation: [tʃeriɲˈɲɔːla]; Cerignolano: Ceregnòule [tʃərəɲˈɲɔwlə] (listen)) is a town and comune of Apulia, Italy, in the province of Foggia,

    Salapia (also called Salpe and Salpi) is an ancient settlement and bishopric in Daunia, Italy near Cerignola and Manfredonia.
    They should try to find samples near or at Rudiae

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    I thought Maros culture comes from bell beaker around east Austria/West Hungary
    Maros culture tested 55 percent aegean neolithic. And 34 percent steppe. But they could have recieved steppe because of a steppe migration along the pontic into the aegean

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    They should try to find samples near or at Rudiae
    Rudiae is near Lecce, almost in, or some is in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epirus1000 View Post
    FB_IMG_1664272782059.jpg
    So you mean all the illyrians helmets found in Cinamake Kukes should be considered "greek" helmets. So, all the production of iron and copper of the Kukes area should be considered "greek iron and copper". What about todays copper mines in Kukes? Is it still "greek copper"?

    The Cinamake Helmet in the photo

    it seems they where made in 2 places

    Known as Shmarjet helmet, named after Shmarjet of Novo Mesto (modern Slovenia ), was used by the Japodes.[4] from 700BC..................the earlier bronze type was produced circa 1000BC and was made of only bronze.

    and

    in made in Greece near Argos from 500BC using thee Type IV (c. 500 BC) which was similar to Type III but hearing was not impaired at all.
    The Illyrian type helmet was used by the ancient Greeks,[7] Etruscans,[8] Scythians,[9] from 450BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    They should try to find samples near or at Rudiae

    Do you have any non-daunian samples in italy that I can check

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Do you have any non-daunian samples in italy that I can check
    I have to see if I find some study about that later.

    In any case

    Maros culture has 55 percent aegean.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunians

    There are numerous testimonies among ancient authors (Pseudo-Scylax, Virgil, Festus, Servius) of a presence of the Daunians beyond the Apennines in Campania and Latium where some towns claimed Diomedian origins.

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    From strabo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    I have to see if I find some study about that later.

    In any case

    Maros culture has 55 percent aegean.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunians

    There are numerous testimonies among ancient authors (Pseudo-Scylax, Virgil, Festus, Servius) of a presence of the Daunians beyond the Apennines in Campania and Latium where some towns claimed Diomedian origins.

    you do realise if the Daunians are known as Iapygian like the Messapics are....and that Iapygian is known as a Greek term for Iapodes ......we all know that the Iapodes are from modern north croatia ................then the messapics are then from Northern Croatia ............occam razor system ............

    Since you believe Strabo....then the bulk ( 70 to 80% ) of Illyrians come from the eastern alps and pannonia ...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    you do realise if the Daunians are known as Iapygian like the Messapics are....and that Iapygian is known as a Greek term for Iapodes ......we all know that the Iapodes are from modern north croatia ................then the messapics are then from Northern Croatia ............occam razor system ............

    Since you believe Strabo....then the bulk ( 70 to 80% ) of Illyrians come from the eastern alps and pannonia ...........
    Maros culture J-L283 is north with heavy agean ancestry at 55 percent. I dont believe that they necessarily came from north but I believe that they arrived on the adriatic shore they spread north.
    We have 4 sardinian J-L283 -z615 clades which is strange and no younger clades in terms of ancient samples it looks like. Even most of the non ancient sardinian samples are -615.
    And one J-BY161113 that is 615 positive is a very basal offshoot of of a croatian J-Z38240 from close to 1500 BC

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

    The croatian also has a decendant in bari Italy J-FT273311*
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT273311*/


    And you have one in cosenza italy which is closer to sardinia which is also diverging from a croatian
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT366875/
    Are both basal z597 clades

    The ones in firenze and lukka are not far from each other which are basal z585
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT289318/
    But all the other basal italian z585 are sardinian

    Ancient very basal J-L283 trend
    We have ancient samples not far from the paeonian plains.
    They are right behind the palegonian mountains. Between both paenonians and dardania. Or maybe the mountains are called mount mount korab?










    So you see the maros culture is actually way more north then where paenonian tribes were but the majority of J-L283 are south by the adriatic. And we have some J-L283 at 6th century BC close to the Paeonian tribes and dardanians. So its not a co incident that we also have macadonian army J-L283 decendants in the middle east and one in india

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT29034*/


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    Also to note there seems to be almost no J2b2 non J-L283 on yfull that is European. So this transition from J2b2 to J-L283 means it migrated quite fast and was bottle necked before or after migration in my opinion. Likely before migration and then migrated away. My opinion is that this J-L283 probably migrated after some kind of disaster of their homeland. Maybe a massacre or maybe was away and their homeland was destroyed

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    Also maros culture is near where the thracian tribe known as albocensi is at. Its called albo?
    I don't know your languages and etymologies but I thought it was interesting. Of course maros culture is way before possibly this list of tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Also to note there seems to be almost no J2b2 non J-L283 on yfull that is European. So this transition from J2b2 to J-L283 means it migrated quite fast and was bottle necked before or after migration in my opinion. Likely before migration and then migrated away. My opinion is that this J-L283 probably migrated after some kind of disaster of their homeland. Maybe a massacre or maybe was away and their homeland was destroyed
    Remember, not everything needs to be a disaster in order for a group to move. I realize you’re not a big fan of the steppe hypothesis as it relates to the spread of J2b L283 further west into Pannonia and the Balkans. Starting around 4200BC there was a terrible freeze that impacted much of Europe and lasted, so I’ve read, possibly a couple of centuries. This may have adversely impacted the Cucuteni Trypillian people as well as other old Europe cultures that were heavily reliant on farming as a way of life. However, groups to the east of these old world groups may have been more resilient because they were pastoralists and moved with their animals. They would have had sustenance via milk from their animals and a plentiful supply of meat. These pastoralists would have moved east to west across the dry steppe eventually coming into
    contact with old Europe groups who may have retreated further west due to loss of their crops and possibly the intrusion of these pastoralists from the east.

    Additionally, there was also a lot of trade going on between the Balkans and the steppe stretching all the way across to the Caucasus. During all of this activity we see J2b L283 start to expand with several branches forming between about 4000 to 3500 BC. These were pre Yamnaya groups who, from the sounds of it, were very Yamnaya like based on their autosomal makeup (according to Davidski at Eurogenes).

    The other point that’s worth mentioning: this Aegean ancestry component from Mokrin was the same in all the samples regardless of Y haplogroup. The Aegean ancestry would be the same as Anatolian Farmer (ANF) or Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry. It’s just that there is a lack of standardization amongst academics in genetic genealogy regarding terminology used to describe these different components. Most J2b L283 and R1b M269 samples from about 2000 BC found there in the Balkans and Pannonia typically have about 20/20 mix of EHG and CHG ancestry and roughly 60% EEF ancestry. This EEF ancestry is to be expected because that was the predominant ancestry component found throughout the Balkans prior to the arrival of steppe groups from the east.

    The big news? They now have the oldest ever R1b M269 ever discovered from Smyadovo, Bulgaria. He belonged to the Karanovo Culture and is dated to around 4500 BC. This was an Old Europe group not associated with early IE expansions. And yet all these years later, we have a treasure trove of ancient L283s from across the Balkans, Pannonia…even Africa…but still not a single ancient Neolithic J2b L283. Yet the mere suggestion that it could have crossed the steppe still triggers grand mal seizures amongst some of the “know it alls” on line. Quite remarkable.
    Last edited by Polska; 30-09-22 at 04:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    During all of this activity we see J2b L283 start to expand with several branches forming between about 4000 to 3500 BC. These were pre Yamnaya groups who, from the sounds of it, were very Yamnaya like based on their autosomal makeup (according to Davidski at Eurogenes).
    Could you please elaborate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Remember, not everything needs to be a disaster in order for a group to move. I realize you’re not a big fan of the steppe hypothesis as it relates to the spread of J2b L283 further west into Pannonia and the Balkans. Starting around 4200BC there was a terrible freeze that impacted much of Europe and lasted, so I’ve read, possibly a couple of centuries. This may have adversely impacted the Cucuteni Trypillian people as well as other old Europe cultures that were heavily reliant on farming as a way of life. However, groups to the east of these old world groups may have been more resilient because they were pastoralists and moved with their animals. They would have had sustenance via milk from their animals and a plentiful supply of meat. These pastoralists would have moved east to west across the dry steppe eventually coming into
    contact with old Europe groups who may have retreated further west due to loss of their crops and possibly the intrusion of these pastoralists from the east.

    Additionally, there was also a lot of trade going on between the Balkans and the steppe stretching all the way across to the Caucasus. During all of this activity we see J2b L283 start to expand with several branches forming between about 4000 to 3500 BC. These were pre Yamnaya groups who, from the sounds of it, were very Yamnaya like based on their autosomal makeup (according to Davidski at Eurogenes).

    The other point that’s worth mentioning: this Aegean ancestry component from Mokrin was the same in all the samples regardless of Y haplogroup. The Aegean ancestry would be the same as Anatolian Farmer (ANF) or Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry. It’s just that there is a lack of standardization amongst academics in genetic genealogy regarding terminology used to describe these different components. Most J2b L283 and R1b M269 samples from about 2000 BC found there in the Balkans and Pannonia typically have about 20/20 mix of EHG and CHG ancestry and roughly 60% EEF ancestry. This EEF ancestry is to be expected because that was the predominant ancestry component found throughout the Balkans prior to the arrival of steppe groups from the east.

    The big news? They now have the oldest ever R1b M269 ever discovered from Smyadovo, Bulgaria. He belonged to the Karanovo Culture and is dated to around 4500 BC. This was an Old Europe group not associated with early IE expansions. And yet all these years later, we have a treasure trove of ancient L283s from across the Balkans, Pannonia…even Africa…but still not a single ancient Neolithic J2b L283. Yet the mere suggestion that it could have crossed the steppe still triggers grand mal seizures amongst some of the “know it alls” on line. Quite remarkable.
    True but there is no diversity between J-L283 and j2b2 the tmrca goes straight from 9500ybp to 5400 ybp

    But non J-L283 j2b2 goes
    J-Y28235 branch
    8400 to 7200 to 6400 to 3900 to 2700

    J-Z2433 seems to have a big gap which maybe something similar happened to them
    Goes from 7800 ybp to J-Z2449 7400ybp
    To J-Y978 6200 ybp

    To either J-Y82214 at 4200 ybp

    Or J-Z8316 6100 ybp to J-Y960 3000 ybp
    Ect ect
    But you get the idea. It has much steadier tmrca between clades where as j2b2 at tmrca 9500 ybp goes straight to 5400 ybp.

    Its a big gap with no diversity between them. So where did they all go?

    I believe it had to be bottlenecked on a island and then something happened. If it wasn't on a island some kind of bad event still happened for the a large amount of diversity to be lost about 6800 to 5400 ybp.

    The R1b m269 probably came through the lower pontic through bythnia into bulgaria if it came from the steppe. But I think J-L283 was always in the medditernean but it was mostly bottle necked after sea levels rose again in the medditernean 10000 years ago.
    Theres a severe lack of non J-L283 j2b2 european samples. But plenty of west asian ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Could you please elaborate?
    I’ll have to find the blog entry from Davidski w/ his commentary about the area around the NW Black Sea region already being Yamnaya like around 4000 BC. To be clear, I have no idea if these early branches have anything to do with this. It’s just that there was a lot of activity in that area of Europe during that time period. Z615 matches up with Yamnaya, the other branches predate traditional Yamnaya, around 3300 BC. This is a unique pattern. FTDNA has readjusted their estimates, FYI. These screenshots are from their previous update, fwiw.

    80796631-9BA5-4DC5-BB77-4AD5C27BF5C4.jpg

    DA2850F7-05E8-4EFA-8FC3-7BEFA45CD6FE.jpg

    CA2B7516-5714-40E8-B987-B9DF43B57A4F.jpg

    E83A3393-8C48-4501-A462-C90716935EC6.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    True but there is no diversity between J-L283 and j2b2 the tmrca goes straight from 9500ybp to 5400 ybp

    But non J-L283 j2b2 goes
    J-Y28235 branch
    8400 to 7200 to 6400 to 3900 to 2700

    J-Z2433 seems to have a big gap which maybe something similar happened to them
    Goes from 7800 ybp to J-Z2449 7400ybp
    To J-Y978 6200 ybp

    To either J-Y82214 at 4200 ybp

    Or J-Z8316 6100 ybp to J-Y960 3000 ybp
    Ect ect
    But you get the idea. It has much steadier tmrca between clades where as j2b2 at tmrca 9500 ybp goes straight to 5400 ybp.

    Its a big gap with no diversity between them. So where did they all go?

    I believe it had to be bottlenecked on a island and then something happened. If it wasn't on a island some kind of bad event still happened for the a large amount of diversity to be lost about 6800 to 5400 ybp.

    The R1b m269 probably came through the lower pontic through bythnia into bulgaria if it came from the steppe. But I think J-L283 was always in the medditernean but it was mostly bottle necked after sea levels rose again in the medditernean 10000 years ago.
    Theres a severe lack of non J-L283 j2b2 european samples. But plenty of west asian ones.
    If you think J2b L283 is bad, take a look at R1b M269. Which island were they on?

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    I’ll have to find the blog entry from Davidski w/ his commentary about the area around the NW Black Sea region already being Yamnaya like around 4000 BC. To be clear, I have no idea if these early branches have anything to do with this. It’s just that there was a lot of activity in that area of Europe during that time period. Z615 matches up with Yamnaya, the other branches predate traditional Yamnaya, around 3300 BC. This is a unique pattern. FTDNA has readjusted their estimates, FYI. These screenshots are from their previous update, fwiw.

    80796631-9BA5-4DC5-BB77-4AD5C27BF5C4.jpg

    DA2850F7-05E8-4EFA-8FC3-7BEFA45CD6FE.jpg

    CA2B7516-5714-40E8-B987-B9DF43B57A4F.jpg

    E83A3393-8C48-4501-A462-C90716935EC6.jpg
    Thanks. Was just wondering if there was rumors as to the Moldovan samples autosomal makeup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Thanks. Was just wondering if there was rumors as to the Moldovan samples autosomal makeup.
    It’s a bit of a head scratcher because that Henry Shephard, who was one of the authors from the Southern Arc study, explicitly mentions that bone samples were sent from Purcari, Moldova and Giurgiulesti, Moldova to Harvard’s Reich Lab for sequencing to be included in that study. These are very high profile burials. Purcari is a Usatovo burial dating back to 3500 BC. Skeleton was about 2.15 meters tall. Giurgiulesti is thought to be Suvorovo Novodanilovka. Family of 5, kurgan, high status burial, with possible sacrifice of the wife/mother. Dates to about 4100/4200 BC. These skeletons were more gracile in appearance, so possibly admixed with Old Europe groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    It’s a bit of a head scratcher because that Henry Shephard, who was one of the authors from the Southern Arc study, explicitly mentions that bone samples were sent from Purcari, Moldova and Giurgiulesti, Moldova to Harvard’s Reich Lab for sequencing to be included in that study. These are very high profile burials. Purcari is a Usatovo burial dating back to 3500 BC. Skeleton was about 2.15 meters tall. Giurgiulesti is thought to be Suvorovo Novodanilovka. Family of 5, kurgan, high status burial, with possible sacrifice of the wife/mother. Dates to about 4100/4200 BC. These skeletons were more gracile in appearance, so possibly admixed with Old Europe groups.
    Intriguing, thanks. Likely set aside for future studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    If you think J2b L283 is bad, take a look at R1b M269. Which island were they on?

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/
    They look like they got f'd pretty hard too.
    Maybe they were on the same island with J-L283.
    Edit: maybe a different island. Maybe an island in the caspian sea for r1b m269
    Or the black sea. Or agean sea close to the bridge between bulgaria and turkey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    True but there is no diversity between J-L283 and j2b2 the tmrca goes straight from 9500ybp to 5400 ybp

    But non J-L283 j2b2 goes
    J-Y28235 branch
    8400 to 7200 to 6400 to 3900 to 2700

    J-Z2433 seems to have a big gap which maybe something similar happened to them
    Goes from 7800 ybp to J-Z2449 7400ybp
    To J-Y978 6200 ybp

    To either J-Y82214 at 4200 ybp

    Or J-Z8316 6100 ybp to J-Y960 3000 ybp
    Ect ect
    But you get the idea. It has much steadier tmrca between clades where as j2b2 at tmrca 9500 ybp goes straight to 5400 ybp.

    Its a big gap with no diversity between them. So where did they all go?

    I believe it had to be bottlenecked on a island and then something happened. If it wasn't on a island some kind of bad event still happened for the a large amount of diversity to be lost about 6800 to 5400 ybp.

    The R1b m269 probably came through the lower pontic through bythnia into bulgaria if it came from the steppe. But I think J-L283 was always in the medditernean but it was mostly bottle necked after sea levels rose again in the medditernean 10000 years ago.
    Theres a severe lack of non J-L283 j2b2 european samples. But plenty of west asian ones.
    Another dilema that J-L283 being concluded from the steppe is that steppe peoples spread ALL over europe. Not just into the adriatic and italian peninsula. Yet 0 ancient pre roman J-L283 anywhere else. If it came from steppe we should see preroman J-L283 in other places. It doesnt have to be 2000BC. It could even be 1000 bc 1500bc but we see none of that. Not even 700 bc

    I feel like people are erroneously linking J-L283 with steppe expansion when J-L283 is obviously confined to the adriatic, italy, balkans and central medditernean islands based on what we have, sardinia with a sample found within corsica.
    But they attribute mok 15 with steppe even it has more aegean. Well maybe J-L283 had aegean ancestry before mok 15.

    The only sample is maybe KDC001 but its even younger then Mok15.

    Then the only other J-L283 near that one is more south away from the Volga Ural. So it seams weird to attribute this as a steppe migration from north into central europe given there is no samples in north eastern / northern or central europe. They are all in areas close to the medditernean. Mok 15 is bordering romania in the balkans. Its not even in really close to central europe really. Its not in germany if czhechia or southern poland.

  25. #1775
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-04-18
    Age
    30
    Posts
    345

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283 (z627)

    Ethnic group
    Ancient
    Country: Algeria



    Interesting. Maybe I really was on to something about my Ydna.

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