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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #1776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Interesting. Maybe I really was on to something about my Ydna.

    Carthage lasted from 810BC to 146BC ...........they controlled western sicily and Sardinia ..............looks like your link most likely is from one of these 2 italian islands
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  2. #1777
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Interesting. Maybe I really was on to something about my Ydna.
    Question: Do you believe that Y DNA and autosomal DNA are the same thing?

    FYI, this guy is J1a CTS463. Do you belong to this lineage now?

  3. #1778
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Question: Do you believe that Y DNA and autosomal DNA are the same thing?

    FYI, this guy is J1a CTS463. Do you belong to this lineage now?
    No. But I shared dna with a punic sardinian
    I missread the haplogroup tbh also

  4. #1779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Maros culture J-L283 is north with heavy agean ancestry at 55 percent. I dont believe that they necessarily came from north but I believe that they arrived on the adriatic shore they spread north.
    We have 4 sardinian J-L283 -z615 clades which is strange and no younger clades in terms of ancient samples it looks like. Even most of the non ancient sardinian samples are -615.
    And one J-BY161113 that is 615 positive is a very basal offshoot of of a croatian J-Z38240 from close to 1500 BC

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

    The croatian also has a decendant in bari Italy J-FT273311*
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT273311*/


    And you have one in cosenza italy which is closer to sardinia which is also diverging from a croatian
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT366875/
    Are both basal z597 clades

    The ones in firenze and lukka are not far from each other which are basal z585
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT289318/
    But all the other basal italian z585 are sardinian

    Ancient very basal J-L283 trend
    We have ancient samples not far from the paeonian plains.
    They are right behind the palegonian mountains. Between both paenonians and dardania. Or maybe the mountains are called mount mount korab?

    So you see the maros culture is actually way more north then where paenonian tribes were but the majority of J-L283 are south by the adriatic. And we have some J-L283 at 6th century BC close to the Paeonian tribes and dardanians. So its not a co incident that we also have macadonian army J-L283 decendants in the middle east and one in india
    We already have Paeonian samples from Ulanci, Mavrovo and the surroundings they are patrilinealy and autosomally distinct and the archeology of Ulanci proves derived parallels from Paracsin and as it seems also Brnjica. They essentially migrated from the Central Balkans southwards.

    The Pelasgians and the pre-Greek Aegean Neolithics have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians.

    Maros was clearly no "expansion spot" for J2b-L283 but rather an area where there was minor J2b-L283 influence. J2b-L283 is best positioned in Proto-Illyrian EBA Cetina and not EBA Maros, this is clear cut by archeogenetic records. You seem to have a history of insisting on these kind of baseless theories (and others as I have seen from earlier posts of yours).

  5. #1780
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    We already have Paeonian samples from Ulanci, Mavrovo and the surroundings they are patrilinealy and autosomally distinct and the archeology of Ulanci proves derived parallels from Paracsin and as it seems also Brnjica. They essentially migrated from the Central Balkans southwards.

    The Pelasgians and the pre-Greek Aegean Neolithics have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians.

    Maros was clearly no "expansion spot" for J2b-L283 but rather an area where there was minor J2b-L283 influence. J2b-L283 is best positioned in Proto-Illyrian EBA Cetina and not EBA Maros, this is clear cut by archeogenetic records. You seem to have a history of insisting on these kind of baseless theories (and others as I have seen from earlier posts of yours).
    Autosomally mok 15 is closer to neolithic Agean yet you want to make arguments based on autosomal dna with paeonian samples.

    Also I never said J2b-L283 is best positioned maros. I never even said Maros has expansion spots. It just migrated to there from south.
    I clearly said before I believe it landed in the adriatic and then migrated north before. Toward italian peninsula and possibly east. And is related to sardinians. you also have samples at kukes which is close to north Macadonia around 550 BC.

    I believe its from Neolithic Agean or what Migration path you think it took to get to croatia? The steppe through central europe and then south?
    Are you going to argue then maros has no expansion spots? But believe J-L283 came more north all the way down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    If you think J2b L283 is bad, take a look at R1b M269.

    Which island were they on?

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    They look like they got f'd pretty hard too.
    Maybe they were on the same island with J-L283.



    This is the funniest answer I've read in a while, maybe since Wanderer claimed I4331 from MBA Croatia was a kidnapped kid from Kura-Araxes culture.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

  7. #1782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post

    This is the funniest answer I've read in a while, maybe since Wanderer claimed I4331 from MBA Croatia was a kidnapped kid from Kura-Araxes culture.
    It’s going to be pretty hard to top the kidnapped Kura-Araxes kid, but then again, nothing surprises me anymore.

  8. #1783
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    6 members found this post helpful.
    Attachment 13604

    https://imgur.com/a/uYLCEpr

    I just realized something interesting regarding Mokrin 15, thanks to Wanderer’s rambling. Mokrin15 is grave 163. But they also discovered Mokrin15’s mother in the same burial complex. She is grave 181. Well have a look at their ancestry components. Grave 181 (his mom ) has a higher Aegean Farmer component and a lower Steppe component. This can only mean that Mokrin15 inherited his higher than average steppe component from his father. So his J2b L283 Z615 father must have been high steppe. So in the case of his parents, his steppe ancestry was more paternally derived, while his Aegean farmer ancestry was more maternally derived.

  9. #1784
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post

    https://imgur.com/a/uYLCEpr

    I just realized something interesting regarding Mokrin 15, thanks to Wanderer’s rambling. Mokrin15 is grave 163. But they also discovered Mokrin15’s mother in the same burial complex. She is grave 181. Well have a look at their ancestry components. Grave 181 (his mom ) has a higher Aegean Farmer component and a lower Steppe component. This can only mean that Mokrin15 inherited his higher than average steppe component from his father. So his J2b L283 Z615 father must have been high steppe. So in the case of his parents, his steppe ancestry was more paternally derived, while his Aegean farmer ancestry was more maternally derived.
    Thanks for these interesting finds with regards to MOK15.

    I would also like to share another interesting post of yours, from a different forum, which shows he was a beast

    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Here’s a good link to the supplementary section from the Mokrin study that’s been available for some time that contains valuable details about the site and the Maros Culture:

    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf

    The J2b L283 Z615 guy is grave 163. High status burial with stone battle axe and beakers. Status was not inherited but was likely correlated with physical strength/prowess/hunting ability. He was about 55 years old at time of death and was second tallest individual. Relatively high Yamnaya component. Interestingly, 2 of the R1b Z2103 samples have lower Yamnaya and higher Iron Gates HG.

    Some interesting details:

    The Early Bronze Age (EBA) necropolis of Mokrin (Serbia) is situated at the site of Lalina Humka, close to the town of Kikinda in the northern Banat, Serbia. It was a part of the Maros culture which represents a set of communities, spread out through the territories of southeastern Hungary, western Romania, and northern Serbia, between the Karas river at the North, Tisa river to the west and Zlatica and Galacka to the South. Most archeological sites were found in vicinity to the Maros and Tisa rivers, and due to their similarity in the mortuary practice and material culture, it was suggested that these sites represent a cultural entity.

    The Mokrin necropolis was systematically excavated from 1958 to 1965 under supervision of the National museum of Kikinda. In addition to 312 graves, which were excavated and published in great detail, some 50-100 graves remained unexcavated.

    In total 24 radiometric dates are available from the Maros group, which flourished from around 2700 cal BC until 1500 years cal BC, with a possible peak around 2000 cal BC. Six absolute dates from the Mokrin necropolis are in range from 2134 until 1737 cal BC, according to the uppermost and lowermost 1σ boundary of the oldest and most recent date, which settles the Mokrin cemetery into the first half of the Maros sequence and EBA (Supplementary Table S1). This is in concordance with the relative chronology based on the typology of material culture. The Mokrin necropolis was probably abandoned by the Middle Bronze Age period of the Maros sequence.

    Even though it was assumed that Maros communities lived in both open settlements and on hilltops that protected them from seasonal flooding, there is no evidence which suggests any differences in activities, functions or household architecture between these two settlement types. Maros houses were relatively small rectangular dwellings, with clay floors, interior ovens and hearths, multiple rooms and large storage pits, and were probably home to single nuclear or small extended families. The locations of Maros villages in vicinity of rivers provided a good setting for regional trade networks and the movement of material (such as gold, copper, and tin ores).

    Skeletal remains of domestic animals (horse, cattle, pig, sheep/goat, dog, etc) and wild mammals, such as red deer and beaver, suggest that inhabitants of Maros culture settlements were practicing agriculture, animal husbandry, hunting and fishing in everyday life. Maros inhabitants also domesticated barley and einkorn, plants of low yield but high resistance to wet and unpredictable areas of rivers. They were active in cloth weaving, production of ceramics, and metallurgy.

    The high status J2b L283 was a beast (grave 163) with the grave goods, including stone battle axe, possibly related to Arnold Schwarzenegger:

    Porčić and Stefanović (2009) combined the archaeological and biological evidence to study connection between musculo-skeletal markers of physical activity and social status, and to answer the questions regarding the social structure of the Mokrin necropolis and to explore whether Mokrin was a ranked society. Although the basic hypothesis was that individuals of higher rank would be less physically active and vice versa, the results showed that intensity of activities was not related to the vertical status of an individual in a straight-forward way. There was an opposite correlation between social status and the development of shoulder and arm muscles when sex is observed separately, demonstrating that some rank was present. The males of higher status were more involved in upper body physical activities than males of lower rank, either due to a specialized activity related to their specific high position (e.g. weapon handling), or because they had to achieve their high status through the success in warfare or hunting, not through inheritance. When less physically active men were observed, there was a correlation with fewer grave goods.

  10. #1785
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Attachment 13604

    https://imgur.com/a/uYLCEpr

    I just realized something interesting regarding Mokrin 15, thanks to Wanderer’s rambling. Mokrin15 is grave 163. But they also discovered Mokrin15’s mother in the same burial complex. She is grave 181. Well have a look at their ancestry components. Grave 181 (his mom ) has a higher Aegean Farmer component and a lower Steppe component. This can only mean that Mokrin15 inherited his higher than average steppe component from his father. So his J2b L283 Z615 father must have been high steppe. So in the case of his parents, his steppe ancestry was more paternally derived, while his Aegean farmer ancestry was more maternally derived.
    Not necessarily because all the samples show similar inherited ratio of ancestry.

    The difference in ther agean and steppe is not even vastly different.

    Plus minus 8.2 vs 7.5
    And the stepe is
    Plus minus 7.2 vs 6.8 lol

    If im mistaken and his grave was 163 then its even less if a difference
    This means his father also had steppe and neolithic aegean. It doesn't necessarily mean he inherited the ancestry evenly.

    Autosomal distribution is random and un even. Its not perfect.

    My fathers ancestry

    Even though my father is genetically more european than my mother. I inherited nearly the same percentage of european ancestry from both parents.
    My mother is 44 while my father is 57 percent european.
    And my J-L283 comes obviously from europe.

    Parent 2 my father

    Spain 1+ Portugal + 13 +basque 3+ ireland 3+ northern italy 2
    14 + 8
    Jewish and north african 2

    25 percent european from Father
    edit(Forgot the very bottom for 1 southern italy, 1 malta and 1 norway = 3 percent more not 22 percent)

    20 percent european from mother

    Then 1 percent jewish and 1 percent north african from father

    And while my mother is 29 percent spanish I inherited 19 percent of it. Thats roughly 2 /3 of it. More than half
    My father who is 25 percent portuguese
    I inherited basically half
    He is 7 percent spanish i inherited like 1 percent
    My mother is 12 percent portuguese, i inherited only 1


    We only confirmed that mok 15 had a mother of high agean ancestry. Not that the father had very little agean or none. The father is going to have agean ancestry.

    The son is more agean than steppe also still.
    And his mother still has steppe.








  11. #1786
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    The very top above spain is just indigenous america ecuador

    Also to note they all tend to have more more agean than steppe.

  12. #1787
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    Hmm seems like I mixed up my information.
    Seems like they are similar actually. But i just inherited more from my fathers side maybe.
    I think my information was wrong because I had them on 23andme before but they have some portions of dna un assigned. But i can't use it to show where I inherited it from on 23andme because i had uploaded during a free upload period one time a few years ago. But I never paid to have other features inlocked. They offered free estimates but to use dna relatives they wanted me to pay for a kit for them so I didn't.


    But the inheritance between some things like spanish and portuguese is drasticly difference.

    I do have less european ancestry then both of them though.

    Is there a tool i can use to compare what I inherited from both parents thats set up for things like gedmatch. I want to use Punt DNAL k 10 ancient
    Edit:
    Yea I guess I was just remembering my info wrong. I thought he had more european but hes about the same as my mother.
    I just checked both the accounts

  13. #1788
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    Whatever the case though I really don't see how J-L283 came from yanmaya going into central with no ancient J-L283 in central europe or north eastern europe.
    Ill guess I'll just wait again. Rambling too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Whatever the case though I really don't see how J-L283 came from yanmaya going into central with no ancient J-L283 in central europe or north eastern europe.
    Ill guess I'll just wait again. Rambling too much.
    Um, what? Is Slovenia not "Central Europe"? There is no L51 in the steppe either, but it's quite clear it came from there.

    We already have J2B1 from the Don/Caucasus area where Yamnaya had contact with. It's clear J2B comes from around the Caucasus area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Um, what? Is Slovenia not "Central Europe"? There is no L51 in the steppe either, but it's quite clear it came from there.

    We already have J2B1 from the Don/Caucasus area where Yamnaya had contact with. It's clear J2B comes from around the Caucasus area.
    No. Its adriatic southern european geographically.
    Its on the adriatic sea also. It borders southern austria but southern austria is not geographically central european. Austrians ethnically are derived from central europeans but we are talking about a time way before austrians existed.
    Geographically solevenia samples are in southern europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    No. Its adriatic southern european geographically.
    Its on the adriatic sea also. It borders southern austria but southern austria is not geographically central european. Austrians ethnically are derived from central europeans but we are talking about a time way before austrians existed.
    Geographically solevenia samples are in southern europe.
    We have j2b2 -(J-L283) all over the middle east
    Even if it were in the caucus it doesn't mean much because its abence in europe.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    No. Its adriatic southern european geographically.
    Its on the adriatic sea also. It borders southern austria but southern austria is not geographically central european. Austrians ethnically are derived from central europeans but we are talking about a time way before austrians existed.
    Geographically solevenia samples are in southern europe.

    If Austria and Slovenia are not central Europe......then they are neither Balkan/southern Europe ................they must be Eastern Alpine Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    If Austria and Slovenia are not central Europe......then they are neither Balkan/southern Europe ................they must be Eastern Alpine Europe
    Some parts of the balkans is southern european.
    They wouldn't be alpine. Just eastern europe. Alpine is some physical trait or phenotype.

    Most of balkans is southern europe [edit i meant southern not central)
    Below the line is southern
    The circle is central europe generally

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    Map not perfect but im on mobile right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    True but there is no diversity between J-L283 and j2b2 the tmrca goes straight from 9500ybp to 5400 ybp

    But non J-L283 j2b2 goes
    J-Y28235 branch
    8400 to 7200 to 6400 to 3900 to 2700

    J-Z2433 seems to have a big gap which maybe something similar happened to them
    Goes from 7800 ybp to J-Z2449 7400ybp
    To J-Y978 6200 ybp

    To either J-Y82214 at 4200 ybp

    Or J-Z8316 6100 ybp to J-Y960 3000 ybp
    Ect ect
    But you get the idea. It has much steadier tmrca between clades where as j2b2 at tmrca 9500 ybp goes straight to 5400 ybp.

    Its a big gap with no diversity between them. So where did they all go?

    I believe it had to be bottlenecked on a island and then something happened. If it wasn't on a island some kind of bad event still happened for the a large amount of diversity to be lost about 6800 to 5400 ybp.

    The R1b m269 probably came through the lower pontic through bythnia into bulgaria if it came from the steppe. But I think J-L283 was always in the medditernean but it was mostly bottle necked after sea levels rose again in the medditernean 10000 years ago.
    Theres a severe lack of non J-L283 j2b2 european samples. But plenty of west asian ones.
    if you think it was an island why are you so confident it would be Mediterranean? How do you know it wasn't a black sea island?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    It’s a bit of a head scratcher because that Henry Shephard, who was one of the authors from the Southern Arc study, explicitly mentions that bone samples were sent from Purcari, Moldova and Giurgiulesti, Moldova to Harvard’s Reich Lab for sequencing to be included in that study. These are very high profile burials. Purcari is a Usatovo burial dating back to 3500 BC. Skeleton was about 2.15 meters tall. Giurgiulesti is thought to be Suvorovo Novodanilovka. Family of 5, kurgan, high status burial, with possible sacrifice of the wife/mother. Dates to about 4100/4200 BC. These skeletons were more gracile in appearance, so possibly admixed with Old Europe groups.
    7 foot tall skeleton :O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Attachment 13604

    https://imgur.com/a/uYLCEpr

    I just realized something interesting regarding Mokrin 15, thanks to Wanderer’s rambling. Mokrin15 is grave 163. But they also discovered Mokrin15’s mother in the same burial complex. She is grave 181. Well have a look at their ancestry components. Grave 181 (his mom ) has a higher Aegean Farmer component and a lower Steppe component. This can only mean that Mokrin15 inherited his higher than average steppe component from his father. So his J2b L283 Z615 father must have been high steppe. So in the case of his parents, his steppe ancestry was more paternally derived, while his Aegean farmer ancestry was more maternally derived.
    So the evidence points towards me being right about them taking Aegean women. #W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    if you think it was an island why are you so confident it would be Mediterranean? How do you know it wasn't a black sea island?
    It could be a black sea island. But they have more agean ancestry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    So the evidence points towards me being right about them taking Aegean women. #W
    Not really. It just means he inherited more steppe than his mother. Doesnt mean that his father was like 80 percent steppe.
    Most samples have similar ratios excect grave 211 i believe which has much more agean. None of the samples have more steppe than aegean. If it was a bunch of yanmaya men then they should have more yanmaya and low agean as was the case in spain when bell beakers invaded and displaced the neolithic farmers.
    Yanmaya men would have also bought their yanmaya women which would further steppe ancestry more. This isnt like the new world where they had huge physical barriers like a huge body of water and extreme distance so they hardly bought women over. Unless you believe they sailed to adriatic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    So the evidence points towards me being right about them taking Aegean women. #W
    I’m hesitant to even refer to these people as “Aegean” because I think this is probably the same thing as EEF, or Early European Farmer, ancestry. This was the dominant ancestry component there throughout the Balkans prior to the arrival of Yamnaya rich populations.

    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4a2/

    What’s also interesting, and also highlights why I’m really hesitant to latch on to autosomal percentages when looking at a sample, is that the mother of Mokrin15 belongs to U4a2. This is an interesting looking lineage that does not look to be Aegean in origin. In fact, it looks to possibly have some sort of connection to Eastern Europe or possibly even the steppe. But obviously her maternal ancestors had been there in Serbia/Hungary area of Europe for quite a while.

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