J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Riverman]

What non evidential posts? Are you saying the l283's found in slovenia and croatia so far were found alongside r1bs?

Eastern Hallstatt is transitional between the R1b sphere and Illyrians, as well as Thracians.
In the more Illyrian oriented Unterkrainische Gruppe, at Novo Mesto, was R-L2 beside J-L283.
Be prepared for more like this.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Eastern Hallstatt is transitional between the R1b sphere and Illyrians, as well as Thracians.
In the more Illyrian oriented Unterkrainische Gruppe, at Novo Mesto, was R-L2 beside J-L283.
Be prepared for more like this.

Novo mesto is an italo celtic region (hallstatt) so of course r1b u152 would be found there. Whereas it is missing in more southern regions where l283 has been found in abundance, novo mesto would have been a sort of border zone near the l283 people. Do you have the exact placement geographically and years of the r-l2 and l283 samples?

 

[Riverman]

Novo mesto is an italo celtic region (hallstatt) so of course r1b u152 would be found there. Whereas it is missing in more southern regions where l283 has been found in abundance, novo mesto would have been a sort of border zone near the l283 people. Do you have the exact placement geographically and years of the r-l2 and l283 samples?

They were in the last big British/Celtic paper. Can't look it up at the moment.
The group used the Illyrian burial rite and had intensive contacts to the Illyrian South.

 

[Polska]

We have yet to see any evidence of this, wait for ancient dna
All we know so far is that z2103 is the main lineage of yamnaya. Once we get ancient dna from southern europe we will understand which cultures and tribes it influenced after moving out of russia
As for l283 it seems to be found exclusively without any r1b nor r1a alongside (we now have 10+ samples). You cant claim bell beaker influence without any genetic evidence - so far it looks like it either wiped out yamnaya z2103 or bell beaker r1b when settling in north western balkans initially - it looks more like a bell beaker enemy

The greatest mystery in human history is how you can repeatedly insist that ancient J-L283 and R-Z2103/R-M269 have never been buried together, despite numerous posters pointing out several…like 3 or 4…burials to you where they’ve been found together. Mind boggling.

You also seem to not understand the early ethnogenesis of the Indo European people. I see this all the time with posters who talk non stop about Yamnaya and R-Z2103. You need to hit the books. There were numerous groups of people who moved across the southern steppe into the Balkans and Pannonia (modern day Hungary) before the Yamnaya. Just off the top of my head: 1.) Suvorovo people from the Suvorovo Novodanilovka complex (western Sredny Stog), 2.) Cernavoda people, who might be connected to the Suvorovo, and 3.) the Usatovo culture. These groups are candidate cultures for PIE, or Proto Indo Europeans…as in the first of the first. I think we’ll find J-L283 amongst one or some of these groups.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

They were in the last big British/Celtic paper. Can't look it up at the moment.
The group used the Illyrian burial rite and had intensive contacts to the Illyrian South.

Wasnt there over 400 samples and only 1 j-l283 found among these celts?
R-u152 is fairly common yet j-l283 is super rare in western/celtic europe - you can clearly see that only reason there was 2 samples together in novo mesto is because it was a border zone between the 2 cultures, further south where many j-l283 have been found r1b has been completely absent so far

 

[Riverman]

Wasnt there over 400 samples and only 1 j-l283 found among these celts?
R-u152 is fairly common yet j-l283 is super rare in western/celtic europe - you can clearly see that only reason there was 2 samples together in novo mesto is because it was a border zone between the 2 cultures, further south where many j-l283 have been found r1b has been completely absent so far

They had about 3-4 samples from this group in particular, and it was J-L283, and the group being connected to those J-L283 dominated along the Adriatic and the R-L2 dominated in the Alpine-Middle Danubian sphere. So its a clar link, fused group, which was already evident from their archaeological characteristics which points towards a fusion of various influences and Illyrian as well as Upper-Middle Danubian/TC/R-L2 connections.
The connection goes also to Italy and ther Upper Danube the same time for those key cultures for J-L283 (Cetina, Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje).

Actually, J-L283 might have been coming with Yamnaya to Europe, as one of the few other lineages - but that's debatable. In any case, by the EBA-MBA, the time frame we're primarily talking about, they were IE, because we have a continuous development from the mentioned three Adriatic groups (some question Cetina, but I stll mention it as a candidate) into the Illyrian sphere. Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje got pressured and influenced by the Tumulus culture the same time, this created the Proto-Illyrians probably.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

They had about 3-4 samples from this group in particular, and it was J-L283, and the group being connected to those J-L283 dominated along the Adriatic and the R-L2 dominated in the Alpine-Middle Danubian sphere. So its a clar link, fused group, which was already evident from their archaeological characteristics which points towards a fusion of various influences and Illyrian as well as Upper-Middle Danubian/TC/R-L2 connections.
The connection goes also to Italy and ther Upper Danube the same time for those key cultures for J-L283 (Cetina, Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje).

Actually, J-L283 might have been coming with Yamnaya to Europe, as one of the few other lineages - but that's debatable. In any case, by the EBA-MBA, the time frame we're primarily talking about, they were IE, because we have a continuous development from the mentioned three Adriatic groups (some question Cetina, but I stll mention it as a candidate) into the Illyrian sphere. Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje got pressured and influenced by the Tumulus culture the same time, this created the Proto-Illyrians probably.

It isnt debateable as we have plenty yamnaya y dna and 0 j2b l283 have shown up.

You are now suggesting that r1b u152 is illyrian, good grief

 

[Riverman]

It isnt debateable as we have plenty yamnaya y dna and 0 j2b l283 have shown up.

What's your proposed route? There is a good chance it came from the North Caucasus to the steppe and from there first into the Eastern Carpathian zone (Maros group, found together with R-Z2103 there), with some branches moving westwards and coming under the influence of Bell Beakers/Tumulus culture.

You are now suggesting that r1b u152 is illyrian, good grief

Its possible, but there are other possibilities as well. By the Iron Age R-U152 is most closely related to Celts, not doubt about that, but in the Beaker phase they surely could have branched in different groups, of which one could have been ancestral to Illyrian. Illyrian is very hard to pin down in the IE tree, so there are many possibilities.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

What's your proposed route? There is a good chance it came from the North Caucasus to the steppe and from there first into the Eastern Carpathian zone (Maros group, found together with R-Z2103 there), with some branches moving westwards and coming under the influence of Bell Beakers/Tumulus culture.
Its possible, but there are other possibilities as well. By the Iron Age R-U152 is most closely related to Celts, not doubt about that, but in the Beaker phase they surely could have branched in different groups, of which one could have been ancestral to Illyrian. Illyrian is very hard to pin down in the IE tree, so there are many possibilities.

It could have travelled from the sea across the adriatic or through anatolia but saying its from yamnaya when we have so many samples already yet 0 j2b l283 is ridiculous imo

Once we get some bronze age samples from albania/montenegro i am pretty sure that r-z2103 will turn up instead of r-u152

 

[Riverman]

It could have travelled from the sea across the adriatic or through anatolia but saying its from yamnaya when we have so many samples already yet 0 j2b l283 is ridiculous imo
Once we get some bronze age samples from albania/montenegro i am pretty sure that r-z2103 will turn up instead of r-u152

That doesn't matter most likely, because Illyrians and J-L283 seem rather related to the Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje, under the influence of Tumulus and Apennine culture. They rather expanded into Albania and Montenegro, where they indeed could have encountered R-Z2103 and E-V13 in the LBA.
I think R-Z2103 spread in the EBA to MBA with Greco-Armenians/KMK/MCW and E-V13 in the LBA-EIA and later with Thracians/G?va/Channelled Ware.
J-L283 seems to be the primary Illyrian marker.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

That doesn't matter most likely, because Illyrians and J-L283 seem rather related to the Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje, under the influence of Tumulus and Apennine culture. They rather expanded into Albania and Montenegro, where they indeed could have encountered R-Z2103 and E-V13 in the LBA.
I think R-Z2103 spread in the EBA to MBA with Greco-Armenians/KMK/MCW and E-V13 in the LBA-EIA and later with Thracians/G�va/Channelled Ware.
J-L283 seems to be the primary Illyrian marker.

Like i said, ancient dna from south europe will reveal the answers. I am 100% certain r-u152 has nothing to do with illyrians

As for a north to south migration, i doubt it unless you are talking about an expansion into greece. Most early illyrian kings are from the south not from slovenia or what you are suggesting illyrians came from - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis...ounder of,alliance with Dionysius of Syracuse.

 

[Riverman]

Like i said, ancient dna from south europe will reveal the answers. I am 100% certain r-u152 has nothing to do with illyrians
As for a north to south migration, i doubt it unless you are talking about an expansion into greece. Most early illyrian kings are from the south not from slovenia or what you are suggesting illyrians came from - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis...ounder of,alliance with Dionysius of Syracuse.

There are three candidate cultures and all three went rather from North to South:
- Cetina
- Istrian hillfort (Castellieri culture)
- Posusje/Dinaric culture

at least as far as I understood it. The Istrian culture connects Posusje with the Apennine and TC cultural blocks. But I'm no expert on the matter, yet these cultures are imho in the focus for the J-L283 connection.

For the interaction of Castelliere with Posusje/Dinaric on the one hand and Apennine culture on the other look at e.g.:
https://www.academia.edu/44948137/V..._the_Middle_Bronze_Age_19th_14th_century_BCE_

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

There are three candidate cultures and all three went rather from North to South:
- Cetina
- Istrian hillfort (Castellieri culture)
- Posusje/Dinaric culture
at least as far as I understood it. The Istrian culture connects Posusje with the Apennine and TC cultural blocks. But I'm no expert on the matter, yet these cultures are imho in the focus for the J-L283 connection.

Cetina -

"Cetina culture emerged early in the early Bronze Age on the eneolite substrate (Adriatic culture); its people belonged to the old Mediterranean population, which was partially Indoeuropeanized but was not Indo-European"

This is possible for j-l283 as i dont believe they were originally indo european, r-z2103 would have given them the indo european tongue if they ended up becoming illyrians as illyrians spoke indo european

Castellieri -

"The ethnicity of the Castellieri civilization is uncertain, although it was most likely of Pre-Indo-European stock,[citation needed] coming from the sea. The first castellieri were indeed built along the Istrian coasts and present the same Megalithic appearance characterizing in the Mycenaean civilization at the time."

This also goes along with my adriatic sea theory for j-l283 and being unrelated to indo europeans. However these castellieri remained until 3rd century BC when the romans took over and illyrians were speaking indo european by this point. They are clearly unrelated to illyrians who were a major force already for hundreds of years further south

 

[Riverman]

Cetina -
"Cetina culture emerged early in the early Bronze Age on the eneolite substrate (Adriatic culture); its people belonged to the old Mediterranean population, which was partially Indoeuropeanized but was not Indo-European"
This is possible for j-l283 as i dont believe they were originally indo european, r-z2103 would have given them the indo european tongue if they ended up becoming illyrians as illyrians spoke indo european
Castellieri -
"The ethnicity of the Castellieri civilization is uncertain, although it was most likely of Pre-Indo-European stock,[citation needed] coming from the sea. The first castellieri were indeed built along the Istrian coasts and present the same Megalithic appearance characterizing in the Mycenaean civilization at the time."
This also goes along with my adriatic sea theory for j-l283 and being unrelated to indo europeans. However these castellieri remained until 3rd century BC when the romans took over and illyrians were speaking indo european by this point. They are clearly unrelated to illyrians who were a major force already for hundreds of years further south

Castellieri and Cetina are both potential intermediates for Posusje imho, though there are surely other options as well. And for Posusje we already have J-L283. Key is, that they being all integrated into first Bell Beaker related (Cetina) and later Tumulus culture (Castellieri and Posusje) networks, as well as those of Apennine culture Italy. So the connections are to the Italian and Alpine-Upper Danubian zone, domianted by R-U152/Bell Beakers into Tumulus culture into Urnfield. Remarkably, the Illyrian core did go with Tumulus culture, but it did never transition to the second stage, when the Middle Danubian TC turned into Urnfielders.
The borderline is about the area of the mentioned Unterkrainische Gruppe in Slovenia, which was mixed R-L2 + J-L283 and kept the Illyrian collective tumuli with inhumation.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Taktikat, I think soon this matter will be resolved. Just have to wait for the Lazaridis papers. I think you are aware of some of the leaks by now, such as the R1b from EBA-MBA and the L283 from the MBA-LBA in North Albania. The autosomal signature should clarify this. But we have so many samples at this point a mere few kilometers away that in my eyes the topic is almost done and dusted.

Ps: Being an Albanian I2a1-Din is pretty cool since its on the rarer side. It means your ancestors incorporated into the ethnos where many others did not. So that is something to be proud of, don't let subconscious complexes make you doubt that. Likely your lines introgression happened early, meaning it predated very formative historical events for Albanians. Since from what I understand, post early Medieval period there was very little intermixing between the already formed Albanian ethnicity and South Slavic Y lineages, as you might have noticed from the countless similarity maps that go around. Kshu qe mos ta nin.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Castellieri and Cetina are both potential intermediates for Posusje imho, though there are surely other options as well. And for Posusje we already have J-L283. Key is, that they being all integrated into first Bell Beaker related (Cetina) and later Tumulus culture (Castellieri and Posusje) networks, as well as those of Apennine culture Italy. So the connections are to the Italian and Alpine-Upper Danubian zone, domianted by R-U152/Bell Beakers into Tumulus culture into Urnfield. Remarkably, the Illyrian core did go with Tumulus culture, but it did never transition to the second stage, when the Middle Danubian TC turned into Urnfielders.
The borderline is about the area of the mentioned Unterkrainische Gruppe in Slovenia, which was mixed R-L2 + J-L283 and kept the Illyrian collective tumuli with inhumation.

Sredni Stog might be the key here as Polska and Trojet have mentioned.
If L283 was incorporated around Ukraine-Romania as part of this culture, as opposed to North Caucasus/Steppe into IE, which might be the case given the classification of the not published Moldovan 6kbp J2b, I begin to wonder what gave rise to the Tumuli mode of burial as opposed to the previous Tripyllia -> Sredni Stog flat graves.
In a sense one can deduce a surplus of calories, and a more stratified, clan based society. But definitively an economic-cultural shift, as from what I have read the Yamnaya that arose later was a symbiosis of various cultural phenomena from the earlier cultures with some innovations such as the Tumuli.

 

[Hawk]

Sredni Stog might be the key here as Polska and Trojet have mentioned.
If L283 was incorporated around Ukraine-Romania as part of this culture, as opposed to North Caucasus/Steppe into IE, which might be the case given the classification of the not published Moldovan 6kbp J2b, I begin to wonder what gave rise to the Tumuli mode of burial as opposed to the previous Tripyllia -> Sredni Stog flat graves.
In a sense one can deduce a surplus of calories, and a more stratified, clan based society. But definitively an economic-cultural shift, as from what I have read the Yamnaya that arose later was a symbiosis of various cultural phenomena from the earlier cultures with some innovations such as the Tumuli.

That sounds plausible. Anyway the find in Maros (XX B.C) which is earlier than Croatian ones and the find in North-West Caucasus (XX-XIX B.C) supports that trajectory.

 

[Riverman]

That sounds plausible. Anyway the find in Maros (XX B.C) which is earlier than Croatian ones and the find in North-West Caucasus (XX-XIX B.C) supports that trajectory.

One small group of J-L283 could be enough, probably from a tribe which moved directly to the Carpathian zone and from there on westwards.

 

[Dushman]

That doesn't matter most likely, because Illyrians and J-L283 seem rather related to the Istrian hillfort culture and Posusje, under the influence of Tumulus and Apennine culture. They rather expanded into Albania and Montenegro, where they indeed could have encountered R-Z2103 and E-V13 in the LBA.
I think R-Z2103 spread in the EBA to MBA with Greco-Armenians/KMK/MCW and E-V13 in the LBA-EIA and later with Thracians/G�va/Channelled Ware.
J-L283 seems to be the primary Illyrian marker.

If what you say is true, that increases the possibility that the Proto-Illyrians were R-Z2103 and E-V13 and not the other way around.

The Illyrians reached deep South into Epirus, Aetolia, and Makedonia, so we better see some J2b2 in those areas. Unless you suggest a relay-race where J2b2 quickly Illyrianized E-V13 and R-Z2103 and sent them South as Illyrian ambassadors.

Then, anecdotally, these Southern Illyrians came to be called Illyrii proprie dicti while the original ones where not pure enough lol

 

[mount123]

This thread has unfortunately been prone to being derailed multiple times. It would be great to see some change in this regard.

If there is an off topic discussion one ore more might be interested in there is always the possibility to open a new thread with the appropriate topic.