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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #1801
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Not really. It just means he inherited more steppe than his mother. Doesnt mean that his father was like 80 percent steppe.
    Most samples have similar ratios excect grave 211 i believe which has much more agean. None of the samples have more steppe than aegean. If it was a bunch of yanmaya men then they should have more yanmaya and low agean as was the case in spain when bell beakers invaded and displaced the neolithic farmers.
    Yanmaya men would have also bought their yanmaya women which would further steppe ancestry more. This isnt like the new world where they had huge physical barriers like a huge body of water and extreme distance so they hardly bought women over. Unless you believe they sailed to adriatic
    Not at all. That’s why I pointed out in my “Mokrin Beast” post that 2 of the male samples with lower steppe and higher “Aegean” ancestry belonged to R Z2103, a dominant Yamnaya line.

    By 2000 BC, there were no more samples there in the Balkans that arrived from the steppe that were rich in only CHG/EHG ancestry. All were EEF heavy via mixing with locals.

  2. #1802
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    It’s going to be pretty hard to top the kidnapped Kura-Araxes kid, but then again, nothing surprises me anymore.
    Thats funny but I moved on from that since we do have more samples.
    But we don't have any in the whole of Central , south and north eastern europe

    I just dont believe J-L283 went through central europe and north eastern europe.

    None of the ancient pre roman samples are outside of southern europe. The closest thing to being away from southern europe is the Mok 15 sample but its still in southern europe (geographically, not like ethnically by todays standards)

  3. #1803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    I’m hesitant to even refer to these people as “Aegean” because I think this is probably the same thing as EEF, or Early European Farmer, ancestry. This was the dominant ancestry component there throughout the Balkans prior to the arrival of Yamnaya rich populations.

    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4a2/

    What’s also interesting, and also highlights why I’m really hesitant to latch on to autosomal percentages when looking at a sample, is that the mother of Mokrin15 belongs to U4a2. This is an interesting looking lineage that does not look to be Aegean in origin. In fact, it looks to possibly have some sort of connection to Eastern Europe or possibly even the steppe. But obviously her maternal ancestors had been there in Serbia/Hungary area of Europe for quite a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    I’m hesitant to even refer to these people as “Aegean” because I think this is probably the same thing as EEF, or Early European Farmer, ancestry. This was the dominant ancestry component there throughout the Balkans prior to the arrival of Yamnaya rich populations.

    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4a2/

    What’s also interesting, and also highlights why I’m really hesitant to latch on to autosomal percentages when looking at a sample, is that the mother of Mokrin15 belongs to U4a2. This is an interesting looking lineage that does not look to be Aegean in origin. In fact, it looks to possibly have some sort of connection to Eastern Europe or possibly even the steppe. But obviously her maternal ancestors had been there in Serbia/Hungary area of Europe for quite a while.
    Later i have to look more in depth at the male samples when I get on my desktop
    But id:SSG_M26CHN is about as old as as
    MOK15SRB and its in xinjiang china whut the hell.

    id:I7278CZE [CZ-ST]
    Is even older in central europe.
    Czechia stredocesky krak

    Perhaps he is maternally steppe. Thats why he has steppe. Not paternally steppe necessarily.

    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4a2c2*/

    Is in great britain 1000 BC

    More chinese?
    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4a2l/

    This is obviously a maternal yanmaya clade because its spread to far from central europe to china amd Kazakhstan

    See this is maternal steppe. Its all over. Wide geographical distance. Unlike J-L283 which is confined to southern europe and the medditernean

  4. #1804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Attachment 13604

    https://imgur.com/a/uYLCEpr

    I just realized something interesting regarding Mokrin 15, thanks to Wanderer’s rambling. Mokrin15 is grave 163. But they also discovered Mokrin15’s mother in the same burial complex. She is grave 181. Well have a look at their ancestry components. Grave 181 (his mom ) has a higher Aegean Farmer component and a lower Steppe component. This can only mean that Mokrin15 inherited his higher than average steppe component from his father. So his J2b L283 Z615 father must have been high steppe. So in the case of his parents, his steppe ancestry was more paternally derived, while his Aegean farmer ancestry was more maternally derived.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    It’s a bit of a head scratcher because that Henry Shephard, who was one of the authors from the Southern Arc study, explicitly mentions that bone samples were sent from Purcari, Moldova and Giurgiulesti, Moldova to Harvard’s Reich Lab for sequencing to be included in that study. These are very high profile burials. Purcari is a Usatovo burial dating back to 3500 BC. Skeleton was about 2.15 meters tall. Giurgiulesti is thought to be Suvorovo Novodanilovka. Family of 5, kurgan, high status burial, with possible sacrifice of the wife/mother. Dates to about 4100/4200 BC. These skeletons were more gracile in appearance, so possibly admixed with Old Europe groups.
    Thanks for the insights in regards to Mokrin and those Copper Age samples from Eastern Europe.

  5. #1805
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    About https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/
    It hardly has any kits uploaded now that I notice.

    Here the ftdna project has many kits
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/dna-results

    That this funny considering r1b is actually everywhere and overpopulated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    but southern austria is not geographically central european.
    Come on... You're just nitpicking now.

  7. #1807
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Come on... You're just nitpicking now.
    Finez, latvia is southern european too.

  8. #1808
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    Get these samples examined ( the skeletons for dna testing and haplogroup)


  9. #1809
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    I came across this image
    Does anyone know if the stele of Iapygians actually were like the ones in this cropped photo?
    I cant find a source talking about it. Not the body, the head portions
    They look like the giant sardianian statues. If this is true then sardinians and coastal and mainland llyrians are one and the same
    One of the items even has the horned helmets like in the sardinian small figures

  10. #1810
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    I came across this image
    Does anyone know if the stele of Iapygians actually were like the ones in this cropped photo?
    I cant find a source talking about it. Not the body, the head portions
    They look like the giant sardianian statues. If this is true then sardinians and coastal and mainland llyrians are one and the same
    One of the items even has the horned helmets like in the sardinian small figures
    Firstly ......Iapygian was the Greek name only used for the Messapians ........the Daunians and Peucetii where still referred to as the Iapodes ( same as north croatian tribe )
    in your pictures ....only the woman, the head of the man next to her and the item ( bottom row , third from the right ) are Messapic .............majority of the other pictures are Daunian
    Recent work by Croatian archaeologists who have documented sanctuaries on the‘island bridge’ spanning from the Dalmatian coast to the Gargano peninsula in Daunia, in use fromat least the Neolithic period, also adds considerable weight to the argument.
    8
    The traffic was, however,no doubt two-way. The prevailing winds in the upper Adriatic and a clock-wise current, in concertwith the ‘island bridge’, gave rise to strong maritime trade route that took in the Daunians (further signposted by sea-faring craft incised on their stelae
    9) and Picinians on the west coast, and the Japodians, Histrians, Liburnians and Dalmatians (all ‘Illyrian tribes’) on the north and east.10
    It was likely mediated by the Liburnians, whose thalassocracy it is alleged by Appian was propped up by piracy(App.Ill
    . 1.3). Was the cultural affinity between Daunia and Illyria that appears to exist in the Iron Age, nicelyillustrated by the spread of Daunian matt-painted pottery into the Balkans and of amber out, truly dueto a shared ancestry or simply the result of continued trading relations and contact? The Daunianstelae suggest the former: that the ethnogenesis of the northern-most Iapygians really did includeDNA from the indigenous populations of the eastern shores of the Adriatic.

    The Daunian Stelae
    The Daunian stelae are a precious resource for the study of the pre- and proto-historic Adriatic.They are anthropomorphic, each showing the dress and adornment of a human figure (Fig. 1). A significant proportion also carry secondary figurative imagery upon their robes, detailing episodes of daily life, ritual and what is arguably local legend. With otherwise very little figured art or written sources for this society, the stelae offer unparalleled information regarding Daunian practices, traditions and belief systems.
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    If J-L283 came from yamnaya this maybe explains why J-L283 is so confined to the balkans. Corded ware killed yamnaya later on. But i think it may have came through maykop or kura axes and through the southern pontic into thrace.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    If J-L283 came from yamnaya this maybe explains why J-L283 is so confined to the balkans. Corded ware killed yamnaya later on. But i think it may have came through maykop or kura axes and through the southern pontic into thrace.

    Corded Ware descends from Yamnaya. That's like saying Italians killed Romans.

    And these localisations are nothing new. R1b-L51 was never found in the steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Corded Ware descends from Yamnaya. That's like saying Italians killed Romans.

    And these localisations are nothing new. R1b-L51 was never found in the steppe.
    No. Its like saying the visigoths killed the ostrogoths (hypothetically) or the spanish killed the portuguese. Or the english killed the irish. Or the athenians killed the thebans or boatians

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    When is the Moldova sample study getting published?

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    Is there dna studies on the phrygians?
    Says they had Tumlus Burials
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hur...history--86421

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    When is the Moldova sample study getting published?
    Same question here, the postponing of such studies is just annoying. Also other CA samples from Eastern Europe that will be of interest to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Same question here, the postponing of such studies is just annoying. Also other CA samples from Eastern Europe that will be of interest to us.
    I don’t know the reason why these samples from the NWBSR are delayed, but my hunch is they are probably meticulously checking all of the samples for “reservoir effect” and trying to ensure the samples are properly dated. Moldova/Ukraine samples anywhere near the Black Sea or large rivers that date back to the eneolithic tend to belong to groups that consumed large quantities of fish and other types of meat and not a lot of plant based food. This can offset the dating of the samples. So some of these samples, as a result, may actually be older than previously thought. Nailing down the precise age of samples throughout that region will be critical to understanding which groups they belonged to. So I think they’re looking for very accurate dating of the samples along with ancient DNA to make the best assessment as to which cultural complexes these various samples came from.

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    Did the kalash people had Y dna studies done on them before?
    They are said fo be macadonian decendants
    http://<br /> <a href="https://youtu...AcgpABMgEM</a>

  19. #1819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Did the kalash people had Y dna studies done on them before?
    They are said fo be macadonian decendants
    http://<br /> <a href="https://youtu...AcgpABMgEM</a>
    Wanderer, I am aware that due to your racial/ethnical background MENA populations are of interest to you but I think all here can agree with me on the fact that posts as such absolutely don't relate to the thread's topic at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Wanderer, I am aware that due to your racial/ethnical background MENA populations are of interest to you but I think all here can agree with me on the fact that posts as such absolutely don't relate to the thread's topic at all.
    Uh, im not south asian.
    And south asians dont have sub saharan ancestry. And levant people weren't ssa nor had iberian admixture or french ancestry.
    And neither had native American ancestry.

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    Does anyone here by chance know (Trojet, Polska?) where this Bavarian id:YF110285 exactly comes from in Bavaria?

    He is under J2b-L283>Y21045>PH4679 Y109700 and in Yfull live forms this new branch FGCLR1273*.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting read about developments regarding J2b-L283>Z1043:
    https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-ft33373-an-iron-age-line-of-j2b-z1043-with-significant-western-balkans-diversity/


    J2b-FT33373 an Iron Age Line of J2b-Z1043 with Significant Western Balkans Diversity

    „One new sample traces his male line to Spodnja Pohanca, Artiče, Krško, today Slovenia. He informed me that he believes that further back his ancestors lived in Slavonia, the eastern part of Croatia. I'm marking his sample as Krško until more details can be clarified regarding a possible deeper origin.
    The second new sample from Greece traces his male line to Grevena, Greece, but his male line ancestors were likely originally not ethnic Greeks. His male line ancestor lived in the village of Lavdas and belonged to an ethnic group known as Koupatsarei. This group is described as likely having descended from sedentarized Vlachs in this paper.“

    Thoughts About the Ancient Origin of J2b-FT33373 and parent J2b-Z1043

    „Presently, given that we have not yet found ancient J2b-Z1043 samples dating to the Iron Age, before any Roman-mediated migrations would have occurred, the geographic origin of J2b-Z1043 and its immediate child J2b-FT33373 is not precisely known.“

    „Given that several high resolution ancient J2b-Z1297 samples have been found in the western part of the Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age Glasinac-Mati culture, and all were negative for prolific J2b-Z1043, I think that the eastern range of Glasinac-Mati could represent the homeland of J2b-Z1043.“

    „One other line of J2b-Z1043 with an Iron Age TMRCA and significant diversity in the Balkans is J2b-FTA62354. This is a branch of J2b-FGC55778, an easily identified branch as nearly all of these men have DYS385a = 10 (a denotes the first number in the hyphenated pair). These men trace descent to Montenegro, northern Albania and North Macedonia“

    Also interesting to note is that as it seems amongst those two Hacs J2b-L283 guys (Hacs_24, Hacs_10) Hacs_10 seems to be Z8421 so very likely Z1043 I’m assuming (preprint on 5/6th century cemeteries from Pannonia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Did the kalash people had Y dna studies done on them before?
    They are said fo be macadonian decendants
    http://<br /> <a href="https://youtu...AcgpABMgEM</a>
    Yeah, and they are far more isolate and different from Balkan people than the rest of MENA people, some very rare Y-DNA L, G, R clades. Forgot the details. Even autosomally they are an unique Central Asian people. Makes sense because they lived in such high altitude environment, and were quite isolate for some time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Does anyone here by chance know (Trojet, Polska?) where this Bavarian id:YF110285 exactly comes from in Bavaria?

    He is under J2b-L283>Y21045>PH4679 Y109700 and in Yfull live forms this new branch FGCLR1273*.
    Rosenberg, Bayern, Germany

    https://germany.places-in-the-world....rosenberg.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    It’s a bit of a head scratcher because that Henry Shephard, who was one of the authors from the Southern Arc study, explicitly mentions that bone samples were sent from Purcari, Moldova and Giurgiulesti, Moldova to Harvard’s Reich Lab for sequencing to be included in that study. These are very high profile burials. Purcari is a Usatovo burial dating back to 3500 BC. Skeleton was about 2.15 meters tall. Giurgiulesti is thought to be Suvorovo Novodanilovka. Family of 5, kurgan, high status burial, with possible sacrifice of the wife/mother. Dates to about 4100/4200 BC. These skeletons were more gracile in appearance, so possibly admixed with Old Europe groups.
    Reading over this again: by saying admixed with old Europe groups as in Steppe + additional Farmer ancestry?

    So the J2b-L283 due to be published sample from Moldova is ~4000 BCE (4500-3500 BCE) and should predate Yamnaya. So clearly the aforementioned groups are rather the context it will be found in. Do you or others here know of any more specifics and can narrow it down further or perhaps make a bet on which cultural complex it will be?

    From the other forum:
    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe
    Yeah from what I can see there is one 4500-3500 BC male with J2b2a in Moldova, I don't see any Yamnaya samples with it however. I think this is the same sample Davidski was alluding too in the past which had quite some steppe ancestry but also some farmer ancestry.


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