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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #1826
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Reading over this again: by saying admixed with old Europe groups as in Steppe + additional Farmer ancestry?

    So the J2b-L283 due to be published sample from Moldova is ~4000 BCE (4500-3500 BCE) and should predate Yamnaya. So clearly the aforementioned groups are rather the context it will be found in. Do you or others here know of any more specifics and can narrow it down further or perhaps make a bet on which cultural complex it will be?
    Considering the dating of 4500-3500 BCE it will more likely be a Suvorovo Culture sample.

    Just at the pace, surely not the best site to quote albeit does not seem to differ too much from the papers I'm reading through on Suvorovo (excluding further comments):

    "The Suvorovo culture, also called the Suvorovo group, was a Copper Age culture which flourished on the northwest Pontic steppe and the lower Danube from 4500 BC to 4100 BC.

    The Suvorovo culture is entirely defined by its burials. These include kurgans and flat graves. Burials are oriented towards the east or northeast, in a supine position with legs either flexed or extended. Roofs of the burial chambers are often covered with stone slabs or logs.

    Typical grave goods of the Suvorovo culture include ceramics both the Gumelnița–Karanovo culture and the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture, and shell-tempered wares that are typical of the steppe.The Suvorovo kurgans are the earliest ones to appear in Southeast Europe Its features are characteristic of cultures on the steppes and forest-steppes further east in Ukraine and southern Russia. In accordance with the Kurgan hypothesis, the Suvorovo culture is evidence of a westward expansion of early Indo-European peoples from their homeland on the steppe."

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    Moldova study still hasn't been published. Seems like something wrong is going on with their study maybe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Moldova study still hasn't been published. Seems like something wrong is going on with their study maybe
    No. Some papers just take a long time until they get published.
    Literally just one page ago:
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    I don’t know the reason why these samples from the NWBSR are delayed, but my hunch is they are probably meticulously checking all of the samples for “reservoir effect” and trying to ensure the samples are properly dated. Moldova/Ukraine samples anywhere near the Black Sea or large rivers that date back to the eneolithic tend to belong to groups that consumed large quantities of fish and other types of meat and not a lot of plant based food. This can offset the dating of the samples. So some of these samples, as a result, may actually be older than previously thought. Nailing down the precise age of samples throughout that region will be critical to understanding which groups they belonged to. So I think they’re looking for very accurate dating of the samples along with ancient DNA to make the best assessment as to which cultural complexes these various samples came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    No. Some papers just take a long time until they get published.
    Literally just one page ago:
    Ok your right. Its been nearly a month and I didnt read that post before

  5. #1830
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Enter_tain, seek some psychological help, you've been opening nearly 50 puppet accounts over the past time and derailing a bunch of threads with pseudo scientific garbage. Stop evading your ban.

    This thread is not about Albanians and R1b-Z2103, it is about J2b-L283.

    Also, learn about them time frames you stubborn troll: Yamnaya 3300–2600 BC

    The due to be published J2b-L283 sample from Moldova is dated at 4500-3500 BCE with the median age being ~4000 BCE. It is not a Yamnaya sample and has no affiliation with that culture whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Enter_tain, seek some psychological help, you've been opening nearly 50 puppet accounts over the past time and derailing a bunch of threads with pseudo scientific garbage. Stop evading your ban.

    This thread is not about Albanians and R1b-Z2103, it is about J2b-L283.

    Also, learn about them time frames you stubborn troll: Yamnaya 3300–2600 BC

    The due to be published J2b-L283 sample from Moldova is dated at 4500-3500 BCE with the median age being ~4000 BCE. It is not a Yamnaya sample and has no affiliation with that culture whatsoever.
    Where do you get that its J-L283? Who announced that?

    What clade of J-L283?
    Is J-L283 * or J-Z2509* or J-Z627* or Z600 * or Z585* ect ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Where do you get that its J-L283? Who announced that?

    What clade of J-L283?
    Is J-L283 * or J-Z2509* or J-Z627* or Z600 * or Z585* ect ?
    Genuine question: do you ever read this thread or do you expect others to point to posts just one page ago? Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Genuine question: do you ever read this thread or do you expect others to point to posts just one page ago? Jesus.
    where do you get that the moldovan sample(s) is J-L283?
    You haven't seen it right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Enter_tain, seek some psychological help, you've been opening nearly 50 puppet accounts over the past time and derailing a bunch of threads with pseudo scientific garbage. Stop evading your ban.

    This thread is not about Albanians and R1b-Z2103, it is about J2b-L283.

    Also, learn about them time frames you stubborn troll: Yamnaya 3300–2600 BC

    The due to be published J2b-L283 sample from Moldova is dated at 4500-3500 BCE with the median age being ~4000 BCE. It is not a Yamnaya sample and has no affiliation with that culture whatsoever.
    1. I am not enter_tain

    2. I quoted from genetic papers like Lazaridis, Mathieson etc on which how the Indo Europeans formed which a moron like you calls pseudo scientific garbage yet quotes from wikipedia. nowhere did I say it is a Yamnaya 100%. Nowhere did I mention only Albanians but Albanians clearly are part of this with the highest % of this Y-DNA and found close to the Balkans so it is an Y-DNA that spread possibly from the Balkans into Italy etc. some incompetent moron like you cannot see this is not my problem. Yamnaya were the main Indo European ancestors of the Balkans who brought R1b-Z2103 which we seen in Vucedol and in Iron Age Albania and which we see in Maros together with J2b2-L283, so yes it is something worth mentioning.

    3. Suvorovo Culture is believed to be an Early Indo European culture you incompetent moron, basically confirming what I am saying that it might be some Early Indo European if it has steppe ancestry.

    You're nothing but some little internet warrior think you are so smart and know everything but litterally have no arguments other than personal attacks , probably one of the most incompetent morons I have ever seen. Same moron who years ago claimed Cetina culture wasn't a proto-Illyrian culture now claims every Illyrian was J2b2-L283 when we see a bunch of R1b in Albania.


    You're nothing but some little rat you moron and there are posts here where you clearly insult Albanians and don't want Albanian to be Illyrian for personal reasons yet you had no argument you little rat, every Albanian here knows you are trash.

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    Same moron got banned from Anthrogenica together with these other trash. Keep playing internet warrior. ;)

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    .........................

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Considering the dating of 4500-3500 BCE it will more likely be a Suvorovo Culture sample.

    Just at the pace, surely not the best site to quote albeit does not seem to differ too much from the papers I'm reading through on Suvorovo (excluding further comments):
    It's saying the same thing that I am saying you moron, that it's an early Indo European.
    3500 BCE and 4000 BCE isn't Suvorovo culture you moron , learn the dates . 3500 BCE could be the start of Usatove culture



    We know there were some sporadic IE migrations into the Balkans but nothing huge like Yamnaya , this could be an Early Indo European sample that had contact with people around the Steppes or Indo Europeanized. R1b-Z2103 and J2b2-L283 were found in Maros so yes they either migrated together at one point or they came in contact somewhere. Don't pretend like this isn't important to the history of the Balkans or J2b2-L283 , you incompetent moron.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    These are some of your posts:

    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    He is a fan of the pseudo scientific fantasy that Slavs are autochthonous to the Balkans. I think he is not referring to the obviously contaminated modern Slavic sample but to one basal I2a2 non-IE sample from Slavonia, Potocari and is trying to link it to I2a1b-Slav which does not make sense whatsoever since these are different haplogroups.

    Also, J2b-L283 in antiquity does not have anything to do with the ancestors of Proto-Albanians but everything with Illyrians as we've seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    They are Illyrian wether you like it or not and Proto-Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians. You have a vibrant imagination, I'll give you that.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Non sense. J2b-L283 has nothing to do with Proto-Albanians. Second of all the South Dalmatian Posusje samples are harbingers as to what is to be expected from even more southern regions.

    There is no E1b-V13 in BA and most definitely not among Classical Illyrians. This is an Albanian nationalistic obsession of you.
    From some of your posts in this thread: eupedia.com/forum/threads/42499-Ancient-balkan-states-Y-DNA?p=646487&viewfull=1#post646487


    So according to this dude J2b2-L283 has nothing to do with Albanians despite it is found the highest in Albanians together with R1b-Z2103 which have been found together or in same sites across the Balkans and in Iron Age Albania, in Maros, Vucedol we have R1b-Z2103, believed to be a proto-Illyrian culture, Cetina where a bunch of J2b2-L283 was post-Vucedol culture.

    Same maggot that claimed Cetina culture wasn't proto-Illyrian. Now claims all Illyrians were J2b2-L283 based on few samples from 1-2 tribes across the Adriatic yet Macedonia and Albania which was inhabited by Illyrians lots of R1b.. Nothing links E-V13 to some proto-Albanians. It's not even an IE marker. I am thinking this dude is either some minority Shqipfoles such as Serb, Bulgarian or something with an Albanian Y-DNA or just some confused moron.

    We all know who you are and your agenda you little maggot. Every Albanian here except for these two little sissy boys of yours know you are trash. Keep coming here and pretend like you know every subject and accuse everyone of spreading pseudo scientific trash which is exactly what you do.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Some more of your posts in that same thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I am not a Muslim. You surely are not a troll account
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Thanks for the compliment tallava dancing fanatasy wannabe Illyrian descended person.
    I am pretty sure this guy is not Albanian or even a real Albanian. Want me to believe some dude like you is Albanian and is being objective on genetic and historical matters. Just look at his posts in that thread. No arguments whatsoever , just calling people slurs and claiming they are spreading pseudo scientific garbage.


    Keep playing internet warrior but even internet warriors have their end of days. Don't you worry about that. Now that we found two of the most common Albanian Y-DNA in Albania I wonder what this little maggot says now + tribal name en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi

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    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It is quite clear that you seem to have psychological issues. What a funny thing of you to say. So just because I am a proud Nikaj tribesman and neither my family or me are Muslim I cannot be Albanian?

    Keep your Albanian nationalistic non sense out of this thread and your Djihadist terrorist bullshit. There are people here from all over the world that belong to J2b-L283 and none of them are interested in reading your crap.

    Also, thanks for the death threat kiddo:

    Quote Originally Posted by Okoi
    When I find you in real life and deal with you then we are going to see how tough you are. Keep playing internet warrior on forums ;)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Enter_tain, seek some psychological help, you've been opening nearly 50 puppet accounts over the past time and derailing a bunch of threads with pseudo scientific garbage. Stop evading your ban.

    This thread is not about Albanians and R1b-Z2103, it is about J2b-L283.

    Also, learn about them time frames you stubborn troll: Yamnaya 3300–2600 BC

    The due to be published J2b-L283 sample from Moldova is dated at 4500-3500 BCE with the median age being ~4000 BCE. It is not a Yamnaya sample and has no affiliation with that culture whatsoever.
    This lunatic is posting under yet another sock and spamming a bunch of threads.

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    new info with narrative

    https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283/
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  18. #1843
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I see Yfull has been contacted by some people to post certain Southern Arc LBA Greece, LIA Albania etc. samples and they are in the process of being uploaded.

    Perhaps some here could do the same for our multiple ancient J2b-L283 samples considering besides two all of them have not been uploaded even though in some the coverage is even better than other samples that have been uploaded.

    These would be quite important especially the first one as it is Y91 and our first ancient sample in this branch:

    ID I5723 HRV_IA Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia ~514-391 BCE J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586

    ID I16253 IA Çinamak, Albania ~658-403 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>
    Y37121

    Not to forget all of the inland and coastal Croatian samples of whom there too are some that should be more than okay to be uploaded.



  19. #1844
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Speaking of Southern Arc:

    The Southern Arc paper had a section in which they addressed supposed „lineages of great frequency within certain regions“ they did not say anything about J2b-L283. Heck, they did not even name it as a nomenclature. They just had a vague text on the side and talked it off with micro subclades without even mentioning the significance of this lineage both in frequency and diversity for the Bronze and Iron Age Western Balkans, namely EBA Cetina and its late phase Dinaric -> Classical Illyrians.

    These three low coverage samples are likely J2b-L283 as well, they are not on the aDNA map. Given the designation of two being at least M102, one M172 and the archaeogenetic context it is quite clear that they are more than highly likely J2b-L283 too:
    I19031 2000-1600 BCE HRV_Cetina_BA_outlier Cetina Valley Croatia
    43.9672237
    16.4326708
    1240K
    1
    0.015
    17477
    M n/a (no relatives detected) Lazaridis caller (12/6/2020) based on Yfull 8.09 running directly on the bam J-M102 J2 J1c1 [0.976,0.993]
    0.192
    0.4
    n/a (<200 SNPs) ss.half S19031.Y1.E2.L1 PASS

    I19026 2000-1600 BCE HRV_Cetina_BA Cetina Valley Croatia
    43.9672237
    16.4326708
    1240K
    2
    0.043
    47377
    M n/a (no relatives detected) Lazaridis caller (12/6/2020) based on Yfull 8.09 running directly on the bam J-M102 J2 J1c1 [0.967,0.987]
    0.11
    0.35154827
    n/a (<200 SNPs) ss.half,ss.half S19026.Y1.E1.L1,S19026.Y1.E2.L1 PASS

    I14499 1450-1250 BCE MNE_LBA_1d.rel_I13168 Velika Gruda Montenegro
    42.366667
    18.733333
    1240K
    1
    0.01195
    13864
    M Montenegro, Velika Gruda Family A (6 members) (I13777 and I13169 are brothers. Both are either sons of or brothers of I13776 (who is a 2nd or 3rd degree relative of I13168). Both are also 2nd or 3rd degree relatives of I13775, I13168, and I14499 (who is also a 1st degree relative of I13168)) Lazaridis caller (12/6/2020) based on Yfull 8.09 running directly on the bam J2 J2 H3z1 [0.949,0.996]
    0.147
    0.371
    n/a (<200 SNPs) ds.half S14499.E1.L1 PASS



    In comparison there have been lineages with miniscule percentages amongst the SA samples and got an exaggeration of a „high frequency“ text in the supplementary info. Imagine having an elephant of data right in front of your eyes and not naming it. Harvard, Harvard...

  20. #1845
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Some findings from the upcoming Skourtanioti et al paper in this video:





























    According to the presentation it's coming to be published in the journal "Nature Ecology & Evolution" soon.

    Interesting paper coming out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Three related J2b-L283 samples from MLBA (ca. 1600-1450 BCE) Mycenaean Mygdalia in Arcadia!
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  21. #1846
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    Ancient DNA reveals admixture history and endogamy in the prehistoric Aegean

    Skourtanioti et. al. 2022: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216

    Three MLBA J2b-L283 samples from Mygdalia, Arcadia, Greece. Just shows these Cetina guys really did not miss one IMO beautiful place :)
    From the presentation:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTqGXZksFZw


    ​(Edit: relevant post already shared above)








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    Edit: Going over this again it should be 4 J2b-L283 samples. The first guy seems to have three boys with two different women: so MYG 001 and MYG 008 both share the same MtDNA next to the Y.


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    I knew ancient J-L283 would be found in eastern medditernean emoji41]
    Its all making sense.
    Medditernean island and coastal connection

    Sardinia, corsica, sicily, Ancient adriatic
    Adriatic coast, southern italy daunian, etruscan, and now mycenean
    Which would definitely have decendants on the islands as they colonized them anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Skourtanioti et. al. 2022: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216

    Three MLBA J2b-L283 samples from Mygdalia, Arcadia, Greece. Just shows these Cetina guys really did not miss one IMO beautiful place :)
    From the presentation:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTqGXZksFZw


    ​(Edit: relevant post already shared above)







    What subclades are they? I will have to watch the video later

    This is cool news

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    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    What subclades are they? I will have to watch the video later

    This is cool news
    The paper hasn't been published yet. But when it is or prior to its publication the sample files are uploaded I'm sure Trojet or anyone else knowledgable in YDNA analysis will let us know.

    Will be interesting to know, am rooting for >Y21045+ (I know very altruistic haha), >Y27522+ or >Z8421+. Yes, cool but also not too surprising considering EBA Cetina type ceramics have been found in the Peloponnese.

    Some good insights on Early Bronze Age Cetina culture:

    https://www.academia.edu/36936788/Th...h_perspectives

    https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/fakultae...etina-project/

    https://www.academia.edu/42625481/Sp...tic_prehistory (Cetina from page 124)


    Map posted on the other forum:
    Quote Originally Posted by Platonitzsche
    Interesting is the presence also in the Ionian Islands, thinking of the modern Kefallonian J2b-L283>Z1297>Y23094>YP26 and generally "supposed" basal Y23094 and the Southern Italians (Calabria, Sicilians about whom Hunter talked in his recent video) that will be added on the Yfull tree. The pattern is really clear by now: it always and ultimately goes back to EBA Cetina.

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