J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Wanderer]

The paper hasn't been published yet. But when it is or prior to its publication the sample files are uploaded I'm sure Trojet or anyone else knowledgable in YDNA analysis will let us know.

Will be interesting to know, am rooting for >Y21045+ (I know very altruistic haha), >Y27522+ or >Z8421+. Yes, cool but also not too surprising considering EBA Cetina type ceramics have been found in the Peloponnese.

Some good insights on Early Bronze Age Cetina culture:

https://www.academia.edu/36936788/Th...h_perspectives

https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/fakultae...etina-project/

https://www.academia.edu/42625481/Sp...tic_prehistory (Cetina from page 124)


Map posted on the other forum:

Interesting is the presence also in the Ionian Islands, thinking of the modern Kefallonian J2b-L283>Z1297>Y23094>YP26 and generally "supposed" basal Y23094 and the Southern Italians (Calabria, Sicilians about whom Hunter talked in his recent video) that will be added on the Yfull tree. The pattern is really clear by now: it always and ultimately goes back to EBA Cetina.

Its said that the dorians invaded the pellopenese and established themselves so does this mean dorians had some adriatic ancestors? Not all of em but some that had J-L283? Maybe they were mix of different tribes including cetina. Or maybe the Y haplo make up was different for early dorians?
Its said they migrated from north western I believe but not sure.
Or would these be pelasgian peoples before dorians?

[Wanderer]

Ah nevermind. These are before the dorian invasian. Says online the dorian invasian was 1100BC.

[TaktikatEMalet]

Its said that the dorians invaded the pellopenese and established themselves so does this mean dorians had some adriatic ancestors? Not all of em but some that had J-L283? Maybe they were mix of different tribes including cetina. Or maybe the Y haplo make up was different for early dorians?
Its said they migrated from north western I believe but not sure.
Or would these be pelasgian peoples before dorians?

Dorians and sea peoples invaded mycenaean greece after 1200bc and were probably v13, these samples are dated to 1600bc. These j2b l283 are proper fully fledged mycenaeans and may explain the indo european input as r1b so far is lacking in ancient greece

[torzio]

Its said that the dorians invaded the pellopenese and established themselves so does this mean dorians had some adriatic ancestors? Not all of em but some that had J-L283? Maybe they were mix of different tribes including cetina. Or maybe the Y haplo make up was different for early dorians?
Its said they migrated from north western I believe but not sure.
Or would these be pelasgian peoples before dorians?

a few decades ago the story was .......

Since Dorians, conquered the mycenaen islands ( crete , rhodes, etc, etc ) and anatolian cities as well, they had to have lived on the coast to have a fleet...............the logical scenario is that they came from modern Montenegro and northern Albania.

How else did the conquer all these islands

[torzio]

These are some of your posts:








From some of your posts in this thread: eupedia.com/forum/threads/42499-Ancient-balkan-states-Y-DNA?p=646487&viewfull=1#post646487


So according to this dude J2b2-L283 has nothing to do with Albanians despite it is found the highest in Albanians together with R1b-Z2103 which have been found together or in same sites across the Balkans and in Iron Age Albania, in Maros, Vucedol we have R1b-Z2103, believed to be a proto-Illyrian culture, Cetina where a bunch of J2b2-L283 was post-Vucedol culture.

Same maggot that claimed Cetina culture wasn't proto-Illyrian. Now claims all Illyrians were J2b2-L283 based on few samples from 1-2 tribes across the Adriatic yet Macedonia and Albania which was inhabited by Illyrians lots of R1b.. Nothing links E-V13 to some proto-Albanians. It's not even an IE marker. I am thinking this dude is either some minority Shqipfoles such as Serb, Bulgarian or something with an Albanian Y-DNA or just some confused moron.

We all know who you are and your agenda you little maggot. Every Albanian here except for these two little sissy boys of yours know you are trash. Keep coming here and pretend like you know every subject and accuse everyone of spreading pseudo scientific trash which is exactly what you do.

the only albanians who have "illyrian" via J-L283 are the ones that migrated south from the northern-balkans ( croatia or slovenia )

[torzio]

Some more of your posts in that same thread:





I am pretty sure this guy is not Albanian or even a real Albanian. Want me to believe some dude like you is Albanian and is being objective on genetic and historical matters. Just look at his posts in that thread. No arguments whatsoever , just calling people slurs and claiming they are spreading pseudo scientific garbage.


Keep playing internet warrior but even internet warriors have their end of days. Don't you worry about that. Now that we found two of the most common Albanian Y-DNA in Albania I wonder what this little maggot says now + tribal name en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi

he seems to be a pure Albanian from Kosovo.......

[torzio]

he seems to be a pure Albanian from Kosovo.......

oops...meant he was a Kosovian and not an Albanian

[mount123]

oops...meant he was a Kosovian and not an Albanian

The user "Okoi" is a puppet account of an already multiple times banned user. It would be great leaving out discussions about my or the personal background of other people out of this thread as it is hindering to the information flow related to the thread's topic. Also, it is not really a respectful manner IMO. Neither am I really able to understand why there was the need for you to feed a "conversation" with this individual by posting another three posts addressed at him.

But just a clarification: Kosovan(r) means someone that is of Kosovan nationality and meant as a regional Albanian demonym (alb. Kosovar) just as one would call an Albanian from Mirdita alb. Mirditor or within Kosovo for example someone from Peja alb. Pejan.

Anyways let's respect the thread's topic and focus on the interesting and exciting news about it!

Edit: if the Moderators go through this thread and ban "Okoi" which is yet another puppet account of that already banned user it would be great also deleting my or other users' posts addressed at him, this post included. Thanks in advance.

[mount123]

The paper hasn't been published yet. But when it is or prior to its publication the sample files are uploaded I'm sure Trojet or anyone else knowledgable in YDNA analysis will let us know.

Will be interesting to know, am rooting for >Y21045+ (I know very altruistic haha), >Y27522+ or >Z8421+. Yes, cool but also not too surprising considering EBA Cetina type ceramics have been found in the Peloponnese.

Some good insights on Early Bronze Age Cetina culture:

https://www.academia.edu/36936788/Th...h_perspectives

https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/fakultae...etina-project/

https://www.academia.edu/42625481/Sp...tic_prehistory (Cetina from page 124)


Map posted on the other forum:

Interesting is the presence also in the Ionian Islands, thinking of the modern Kefallonian J2b-L283>Z1297>Y23094>YP26 and generally "supposed" basal Y23094 and the Southern Italians (Calabria, Sicilians about whom Hunter talked in his recent video) that will be added on the Yfull tree. The pattern is really clear by now: it always and ultimately goes back to EBA Cetina.

Catanzaro, Calabria
Reggio Calabria, Calabria
Catania, Sicily
Milicia, Sicily

[Wanderer]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgus_of_Argos

These J-L283 would be pelasgians

In The Suppliants
Edit
In Aeschylus' play The Suppliants[4][5] the Danaïdes fleeing from Egypt seek asylum from King Pelasgus of Argos, who rules a broad territory bordered by the territory of the Paeonians to the north, the Strymon (river) to the east, and Dodona, the slopes of the Pindus mountains, and the sea to the west;[6], that is, a territory including or north of the Thessalian Pelasgiotis. The southern boundary is not mentioned; however, Apis is said to have come to Argos from Naupactus "on the farther shore," (on the north coast of the Gulf of Corinth) [7] implying that Pelasgus' kingdom includes all of Greece from the north of Thessaly west of the Strymon to the shores of Peloponnesian Argos where the Danaïdes landed. He claims to rule the Pelasgians and to be the "child of Palaichthon ('ancient earth') whom the earth brought forth."

The Danaïdes call the country the "Apian hills" and claim that it understands the karbana audan,[8][9] which many translate as "barbarian speech" but Karba (where live the Karbanoi) is in fact a non-Greek word. They claim to descend from ancestors in ancient Argos even though they are of a "dark race" (melanthes... genos).[10] Pelasgus admits that the land was once called Apia but compares them to the women of Libya and Egypt[11] and wants to know how they can be from Argos on which they cite descent from Io.

In a lost play by Aeschylus, Danaan Women, he defines the original homeland of the Pelasgians as the region around Mycenae.[12]

Pelasgians were the original Mycenean greeks. Not e1b greeks it seems.
Cetina J-L283 would be one of the Ancestors the real original greeks in the time of persues ( he was egyptian though also)
Pelasgians stretched all the way to Paeonians plains which would definitely include J-L283 at that time. And they also existed at the time acleus, son of amphytron and alcmene (also of egyptian decent) who took the name after The original Egyptian heracles. He existed around 1300 BC and these samples are older than that.

Maybe e1b came from ancient egypt thats why they show up more later.

[mount123]

The J2b-L283 samples in Mygdalia are the result of EBA Cetina migrations into Greece. Pelasgians or Aegean Neolithics nor Paeonians have anything to do with EBA Cetina or J2b-L283 at all. You should read the sources amigo.

[torzio]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgus_of_Argos

These J-L283 would be pelasgians

In The Suppliants
Edit
In Aeschylus' play The Suppliants[4][5] the Danaïdes fleeing from Egypt seek asylum from King Pelasgus of Argos, who rules a broad territory bordered by the territory of the Paeonians to the north, the Strymon (river) to the east, and Dodona, the slopes of the Pindus mountains, and the sea to the west;[6], that is, a territory including or north of the Thessalian Pelasgiotis. The southern boundary is not mentioned; however, Apis is said to have come to Argos from Naupactus "on the farther shore," (on the north coast of the Gulf of Corinth) [7] implying that Pelasgus' kingdom includes all of Greece from the north of Thessaly west of the Strymon to the shores of Peloponnesian Argos where the Danaïdes landed. He claims to rule the Pelasgians and to be the "child of Palaichthon ('ancient earth') whom the earth brought forth."

The Danaïdes call the country the "Apian hills" and claim that it understands the karbana audan,[8][9] which many translate as "barbarian speech" but Karba (where live the Karbanoi) is in fact a non-Greek word. They claim to descend from ancestors in ancient Argos even though they are of a "dark race" (melanthes... genos).[10] Pelasgus admits that the land was once called Apia but compares them to the women of Libya and Egypt[11] and wants to know how they can be from Argos on which they cite descent from Io.

In a lost play by Aeschylus, Danaan Women, he defines the original homeland of the Pelasgians as the region around Mycenae.[12]

Pelasgians were the original Mycenean greeks. Not e1b greeks it seems.
Cetina J-L283 would be one of the Ancestors the real original greeks in the time of persues ( he was egyptian though also)
Pelasgians stretched all the way to Paeonians plains which would definitely include J-L283 at that time. And they also existed at the time acleus, son of amphytron and alcmene (also of egyptian decent) who took the name after The original Egyptian heracles. He existed around 1300 BC and these samples are older than that.

Maybe e1b came from ancient egypt thats why they show up more later.

The only island which was part owned by Argos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palagru%C5%BEa


Spartans did control Taranto on the Italian heel for a long time ......constantly at war against their neighbours the messapics

[Galaxy Overlord]

So will all of the southern route theory people concede that J-L283 came from north of black sea when the Moldovan sample comes out?

[mount123]

So will all of the southern route theory people concede that J-L283 came from north of black sea when the Moldovan sample comes out?

Looking at the phylogeny of the so far 87 aDNA J2b-L283 samples nothing but a North to South migration was ever possible. Neither does the autosomal DNA support anything but a North to South migration. And all of this was evident since we had our very first J2b-L283, a little boy ID I4331 buried in Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia, 1600 BCE. Underneath is a list of 78 aDNA samples from the Western Balkans, Italy, Mediterranean. I have added 3 low coverage J2b (they are more than highly likely L283), the 4 Mygdalia and the 2 Pannonian Cemeteries samples.

Sample (n=78)	Site	Date	YDNA
ID I18712	HRV_BA, D. Ostrvica-Pasičine, Croatia	2500-800 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID MOK15	Maros EBA, Mokrin Necropolis, Serbia	2100-1800 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615
ID I18746	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I18747	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I19029	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>Z600>?
ID I11843	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I19032	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I19025	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I18088	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I19031	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I19026	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I18748	HRV_BA, Bogomolje, Croatia	1900-1600 BCE (~1750 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I8471	ALB_Cetina_MBA, Shkrel Shkodër, Malësia e Madhe, Albania	1880-1695 BCE (~1788 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I5080	HRV_BA, Zavojane-Ravca, Velika Gomila, Croatia	1743-1623 BCE (~1683 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID I5073	HRV_BA, Koprivno, Croatia	1732-1542 BCE (~1637 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I4331	HRV_EMBA, Veliki Vanik, Croatia	1631-1521 BCE (~1576 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID MYG001	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG008	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG006	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG005	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I26726	HRV_MBA, Gudnja cave, Croatia	1507-1415 BCE (~1461 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I24345	HRV_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	1500-400 BCE (~950 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I5074	HRV_BA, Matkovici, Croatia	1497-1397 BCE (~1447 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID I13777	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
ID I13775	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
ID I14499	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2(b-L283?) 2nd or 3rd degree relative to I13777 and I13169 L283 samples)
ID I13169	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1407-1271 BCE (~1339 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I13778	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1386-1212 BCE (~1299 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I14498	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1300-1000 BCE (~1150 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID SAL001	Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy	1260–1048 BCE (~1142 BCE)	J2b-L283?
ID ORC003	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1250 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157
ID ORC007	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1248 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>?
ID I10553	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	1226-1056 BCE (~1155 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157
ID I13167	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1216-1052 BCE (~1134 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
ID ORC008	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1095 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>?
ID NEO806	Italy_BronzeAge, Grotta Delle Mura, Apulia , Italy	~1063 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
ID I23911	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	891-797 BCE (~844 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I23995	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	810-675 BCE (~743 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I26742	HRV_EIA, Jazinka Cave, Croatia	800-600 BCE (~700 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I24639	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	795-567 BCE (~681 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I24638	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	795-567 BCE (~681 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I5691	Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, Slovenia	787-544 BCE (~666 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I24882	HRV_EIA, Mala Metaljka, Croatia	774-549 BCE (~662 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID R474	Iron Age/Roman Republic - Etruscan, Civitavecchia, Italy	700-600 BCE (~650 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y45181
ID I17633	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	700-400 BCE (~550 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I16253	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	658-403 BCE (~531 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y 37121
ID I16254	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	600-400 BCE (~500 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I22940	Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, Slovenia	600-350 BCE (~475 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID R11751	CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia	~569 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
ID R11753	CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia	~531 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID CSN004	Casenovole (Grosseto, Tuscany), Italy	530-200 BCE (~365 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>?
ID I5723	HRV_IA, Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia	514-391 BCE (~453 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586
ID SAL010	Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy	500 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I18831	HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	500-1 BCE (~250 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I18830	HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	500-1 BCE (~250 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602
ID ORD014	Daunian_IA, Herdonia (modern Ordona), Italy	~489 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I4998	Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, Kápolnadomb, Gór, Hungary	391-208 BCE (~300 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>BY161113>BY162321
ID R116	Roman Era, Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria), Italy	1 CE - 200 CE (~100 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631
ID R9669	Late Antiquity, Viminacium, Serbia	129.5-310.5 CE (~220 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364 (xBY37860)
ID R3481	Late Antiquity, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro	211-320.5 CE (~266 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID R6693	Late Antiquity, Sviloš-Kruševlje, Serbia	236.0-331.5 CE (~284 CE)	J2b-L283>Z600>Z585>?
ID R2040	Late Antiquity, Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia	245-402 CE (~323 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>Y263344>FT1 08131
ID I15546	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>?
ID I15548	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID I15547	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>?
ID R3543	Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia	431-600.5 CE (~516 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>FTA60432>FT A61140
ID R3544	Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia	549.5-600.5 CE (~575 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>FGC55778>FT2 12328
ID Hacs_24	Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary	600-500 CE (~550 CE )	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID Hacs_10	Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary	600-500 CE (~550 CE)	J2b-L283>?
ID VEN006	Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy	650-763 CE (~686 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507>?
ID ALT-77 / ERS9945038	Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle, Alattyán-Tulát, Hungary	~648 CE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>Y32373>FT33245
ID VEN013	Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy	670-775 CE (~757 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>PH1602>Y86930
ID VPB-307 / ERS9945291	Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite, Vörs-Papkert B, Hungary	~800 CE	J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP61>YP29>YP181
ID SP-2 / ERS9945222	Hungary_Conq_Elite, Sárrétudvari-Poroshalom, Hungary	~950 CE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y27522>Y23097
ID R9918	Early Medieval, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro	996.5-1150.5 CE (~1073 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y272857
ID R54	Medieval, Villa Magna, Italy	1280-1430 CE (~1355 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y23094
ID I15707	Albania_PostMdv, Bardhoc, Albania	1472-1632 CE (~1552 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631

[Galaxy Overlord]

any news gents?

[torzio]

any news gents?

it is part of the inner core on map below .................the other area is the areas where there people traded to

[Galaxy Overlord]

Research fund for those who aren't aware:

https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283...ade-wish-list/


J2b-L283 Hunter Provyn update video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=277J...l=HunterProvyn

[torzio]

Looking at the phylogeny of the so far 87 aDNA J2b-L283 samples nothing but a North to South migration was ever possible. Neither does the autosomal DNA support anything but a North to South migration. And all of this was evident since we had our very first J2b-L283, a little boy ID I4331 buried in Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia, 1600 BCE. Underneath is a list of 78 aDNA samples from the Western Balkans, Italy, Mediterranean. I have added 3 low coverage J2b (they are more than highly likely L283), the 4 Mygdalia and the 2 Pannonian Cemeteries samples.

Sample (n=78)	Site	Date	YDNA
ID I18712	HRV_BA, D. Ostrvica-Pasičine, Croatia	2500-800 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID MOK15	Maros EBA, Mokrin Necropolis, Serbia	2100-1800 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615
ID I18746	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I18747	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I19029	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>Z600>?
ID I11843	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I19032	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I19025	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I18088	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I19031	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I19026	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I18748	HRV_BA, Bogomolje, Croatia	1900-1600 BCE (~1750 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I8471	ALB_Cetina_MBA, Shkrel Shkodër, Malësia e Madhe, Albania	1880-1695 BCE (~1788 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I5080	HRV_BA, Zavojane-Ravca, Velika Gomila, Croatia	1743-1623 BCE (~1683 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID I5073	HRV_BA, Koprivno, Croatia	1732-1542 BCE (~1637 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I4331	HRV_EMBA, Veliki Vanik, Croatia	1631-1521 BCE (~1576 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID MYG001	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG008	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG006	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG005	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I26726	HRV_MBA, Gudnja cave, Croatia	1507-1415 BCE (~1461 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I24345	HRV_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	1500-400 BCE (~950 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I5074	HRV_BA, Matkovici, Croatia	1497-1397 BCE (~1447 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID I13777	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
ID I13775	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
ID I14499	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2(b-L283?) 2nd or 3rd degree relative to I13777 and I13169 L283 samples)
ID I13169	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1407-1271 BCE (~1339 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I13778	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1386-1212 BCE (~1299 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I14498	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1300-1000 BCE (~1150 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID SAL001	Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy	1260–1048 BCE (~1142 BCE)	J2b-L283?
ID ORC003	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1250 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157
ID ORC007	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1248 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>?
ID I10553	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	1226-1056 BCE (~1155 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157
ID I13167	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1216-1052 BCE (~1134 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
ID ORC008	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1095 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>?
ID NEO806	Italy_BronzeAge, Grotta Delle Mura, Apulia , Italy	~1063 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
ID I23911	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	891-797 BCE (~844 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I23995	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	810-675 BCE (~743 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I26742	HRV_EIA, Jazinka Cave, Croatia	800-600 BCE (~700 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I24639	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	795-567 BCE (~681 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I24638	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	795-567 BCE (~681 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I5691	Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, Slovenia	787-544 BCE (~666 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I24882	HRV_EIA, Mala Metaljka, Croatia	774-549 BCE (~662 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID R474	Iron Age/Roman Republic - Etruscan, Civitavecchia, Italy	700-600 BCE (~650 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y45181
ID I17633	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	700-400 BCE (~550 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I16253	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	658-403 BCE (~531 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y 37121
ID I16254	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	600-400 BCE (~500 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I22940	Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, Slovenia	600-350 BCE (~475 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID R11751	CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia	~569 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
ID R11753	CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia	~531 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID CSN004	Casenovole (Grosseto, Tuscany), Italy	530-200 BCE (~365 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>?
ID I5723	HRV_IA, Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia	514-391 BCE (~453 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586
ID SAL010	Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy	500 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I18831	HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	500-1 BCE (~250 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I18830	HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	500-1 BCE (~250 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602
ID ORD014	Daunian_IA, Herdonia (modern Ordona), Italy	~489 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I4998	Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, Kápolnadomb, Gór, Hungary	391-208 BCE (~300 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>BY161113>BY162321
ID R116	Roman Era, Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria), Italy	1 CE - 200 CE (~100 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631
ID R9669	Late Antiquity, Viminacium, Serbia	129.5-310.5 CE (~220 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364 (xBY37860)
ID R3481	Late Antiquity, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro	211-320.5 CE (~266 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID R6693	Late Antiquity, Sviloš-Kruševlje, Serbia	236.0-331.5 CE (~284 CE)	J2b-L283>Z600>Z585>?
ID R2040	Late Antiquity, Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia	245-402 CE (~323 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>Y263344>FT1 08131
ID I15546	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>?
ID I15548	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID I15547	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>?
ID R3543	Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia	431-600.5 CE (~516 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>FTA60432>FT A61140
ID R3544	Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia	549.5-600.5 CE (~575 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>FGC55778>FT2 12328
ID Hacs_24	Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary	600-500 CE (~550 CE )	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID Hacs_10	Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary	600-500 CE (~550 CE)	J2b-L283>?
ID VEN006	Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy	650-763 CE (~686 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507>?
ID ALT-77 / ERS9945038	Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle, Alattyán-Tulát, Hungary	~648 CE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>Y32373>FT33245
ID VEN013	Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy	670-775 CE (~757 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>PH1602>Y86930
ID VPB-307 / ERS9945291	Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite, Vörs-Papkert B, Hungary	~800 CE	J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP61>YP29>YP181
ID SP-2 / ERS9945222	Hungary_Conq_Elite, Sárrétudvari-Poroshalom, Hungary	~950 CE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y27522>Y23097
ID R9918	Early Medieval, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro	996.5-1150.5 CE (~1073 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y272857
ID R54	Medieval, Villa Magna, Italy	1280-1430 CE (~1355 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y23094
ID I15707	Albania_PostMdv, Bardhoc, Albania	1472-1632 CE (~1552 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631

which of these samples belong to the same family tree...that is, from the same family ?

[mount123]

any news gents?

Yes, Trojet has analyzed the Mygdalia samples and they are J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597):

ID MYG001	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)	https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
ID MYG008	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)	https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
ID MYG006	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)	https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
ID MYG005	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)	https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216

[PaleoRevenge]

Besides the Mygdalia series, there are 3 other individuals that are autosomally Illyrian derived, though pretty much all have admixed with the locals.

[Wanderer]

Besides the Mygdalia series, there are 3 other individuals that are autosomally Illyrian derived, though pretty much all have admixed with the locals.

Mygd 005 has no cetina culture admixture it looks but it is J-L283.
What is MNE?

[Wanderer]

Are they decendants of MOK 15? It appears so.
Means a migration from serbia down to greece

Means we should find ancient J-L283 eventually also probably in lands between serbia and greece between 2000BC and 1500 BC. J-L283 would probably migrate to albania during this time and also into some parts of macadonia and kosovo.

[PaleoRevenge]

Mygd 005 has no cetina culture admixture it looks but it is J-L283.
What is MNE?

Montenegro late bronze age. MNE is Cetina but frontier Cetina, it is quite mixed with a population that resembles MKD groups, which during BA occupied much of Albania. In BA collapse, these groups get booted into Italy and Greece, and Illyrian territorial space grows.

[torzio]

Mygd 005 has no cetina culture admixture it looks but it is J-L283.
What is MNE?

Velika Gruda in Montenegro

it originates from

Illyricum_Pannonia_Savia

some believe pannonians are Illyrians and some do not

[torzio]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia_Savia