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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #1851
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    The paper hasn't been published yet. But when it is or prior to its publication the sample files are uploaded I'm sure Trojet or anyone else knowledgable in YDNA analysis will let us know.

    Will be interesting to know, am rooting for >Y21045+ (I know very altruistic haha), >Y27522+ or >Z8421+. Yes, cool but also not too surprising considering EBA Cetina type ceramics have been found in the Peloponnese.

    Some good insights on Early Bronze Age Cetina culture:

    https://www.academia.edu/36936788/Th...h_perspectives

    https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/fakultae...etina-project/

    https://www.academia.edu/42625481/Sp...tic_prehistory (Cetina from page 124)


    Map posted on the other forum:

    Interesting is the presence also in the Ionian Islands, thinking of the modern Kefallonian J2b-L283>Z1297>Y23094>YP26 and generally "supposed" basal Y23094 and the Southern Italians (Calabria, Sicilians about whom Hunter talked in his recent video) that will be added on the Yfull tree. The pattern is really clear by now: it always and ultimately goes back to EBA Cetina.
    Its said that the dorians invaded the pellopenese and established themselves so does this mean dorians had some adriatic ancestors? Not all of em but some that had J-L283? Maybe they were mix of different tribes including cetina. Or maybe the Y haplo make up was different for early dorians?
    Its said they migrated from north western I believe but not sure.
    Or would these be pelasgian peoples before dorians?

  2. #1852
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ah nevermind. These are before the dorian invasian. Says online the dorian invasian was 1100BC.

  3. #1853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Its said that the dorians invaded the pellopenese and established themselves so does this mean dorians had some adriatic ancestors? Not all of em but some that had J-L283? Maybe they were mix of different tribes including cetina. Or maybe the Y haplo make up was different for early dorians?
    Its said they migrated from north western I believe but not sure.
    Or would these be pelasgian peoples before dorians?
    Dorians and sea peoples invaded mycenaean greece after 1200bc and were probably v13, these samples are dated to 1600bc. These j2b l283 are proper fully fledged mycenaeans and may explain the indo european input as r1b so far is lacking in ancient greece

  4. #1854
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Its said that the dorians invaded the pellopenese and established themselves so does this mean dorians had some adriatic ancestors? Not all of em but some that had J-L283? Maybe they were mix of different tribes including cetina. Or maybe the Y haplo make up was different for early dorians?
    Its said they migrated from north western I believe but not sure.
    Or would these be pelasgian peoples before dorians?
    a few decades ago the story was .......

    Since Dorians, conquered the mycenaen islands ( crete , rhodes, etc, etc ) and anatolian cities as well, they had to have lived on the coast to have a fleet...............the logical scenario is that they came from modern Montenegro and northern Albania.

    How else did the conquer all these islands
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  5. #1855
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Okoi View Post
    These are some of your posts:








    From some of your posts in this thread: eupedia.com/forum/threads/42499-Ancient-balkan-states-Y-DNA?p=646487&viewfull=1#post646487


    So according to this dude J2b2-L283 has nothing to do with Albanians despite it is found the highest in Albanians together with R1b-Z2103 which have been found together or in same sites across the Balkans and in Iron Age Albania, in Maros, Vucedol we have R1b-Z2103, believed to be a proto-Illyrian culture, Cetina where a bunch of J2b2-L283 was post-Vucedol culture.

    Same maggot that claimed Cetina culture wasn't proto-Illyrian. Now claims all Illyrians were J2b2-L283 based on few samples from 1-2 tribes across the Adriatic yet Macedonia and Albania which was inhabited by Illyrians lots of R1b.. Nothing links E-V13 to some proto-Albanians. It's not even an IE marker. I am thinking this dude is either some minority Shqipfoles such as Serb, Bulgarian or something with an Albanian Y-DNA or just some confused moron.

    We all know who you are and your agenda you little maggot. Every Albanian here except for these two little sissy boys of yours know you are trash. Keep coming here and pretend like you know every subject and accuse everyone of spreading pseudo scientific trash which is exactly what you do.
    the only albanians who have "illyrian" via J-L283 are the ones that migrated south from the northern-balkans ( croatia or slovenia )

  6. #1856
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Okoi View Post
    Some more of your posts in that same thread:





    I am pretty sure this guy is not Albanian or even a real Albanian. Want me to believe some dude like you is Albanian and is being objective on genetic and historical matters. Just look at his posts in that thread. No arguments whatsoever , just calling people slurs and claiming they are spreading pseudo scientific garbage.


    Keep playing internet warrior but even internet warriors have their end of days. Don't you worry about that. Now that we found two of the most common Albanian Y-DNA in Albania I wonder what this little maggot says now + tribal name en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi
    he seems to be a pure Albanian from Kosovo.......

  7. #1857
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    he seems to be a pure Albanian from Kosovo.......
    oops...meant he was a Kosovian and not an Albanian

  8. #1858
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    oops...meant he was a Kosovian and not an Albanian
    The user "Okoi" is a puppet account of an already multiple times banned user. It would be great leaving out discussions about my or the personal background of other people out of this thread as it is hindering to the information flow related to the thread's topic. Also, it is not really a respectful manner IMO. Neither am I really able to understand why there was the need for you to feed a "conversation" with this individual by posting another three posts addressed at him.

    But just a clarification: Kosovan(r) means someone that is of Kosovan nationality and meant as a regional Albanian demonym (alb. Kosovar) just as one would call an Albanian from Mirdita alb. Mirditor or within Kosovo for example someone from Peja alb. Pejan.

    Anyways let's respect the thread's topic and focus on the interesting and exciting news about it!

    Edit: if the Moderators go through this thread and ban "Okoi" which is yet another puppet account of that already banned user it would be great also deleting my or other users' posts addressed at him, this post included. Thanks in advance.

  9. #1859
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    The paper hasn't been published yet. But when it is or prior to its publication the sample files are uploaded I'm sure Trojet or anyone else knowledgable in YDNA analysis will let us know.

    Will be interesting to know, am rooting for >Y21045+ (I know very altruistic haha), >Y27522+ or >Z8421+. Yes, cool but also not too surprising considering EBA Cetina type ceramics have been found in the Peloponnese.

    Some good insights on Early Bronze Age Cetina culture:

    https://www.academia.edu/36936788/Th...h_perspectives

    https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/fakultae...etina-project/

    https://www.academia.edu/42625481/Sp...tic_prehistory (Cetina from page 124)


    Map posted on the other forum:

    Interesting is the presence also in the Ionian Islands, thinking of the modern Kefallonian J2b-L283>Z1297>Y23094>YP26 and generally "supposed" basal Y23094 and the Southern Italians (Calabria, Sicilians about whom Hunter talked in his recent video) that will be added on the Yfull tree. The pattern is really clear by now: it always and ultimately goes back to EBA Cetina.
    Catanzaro, Calabria
    Reggio Calabria, Calabria
    Catania, Sicily
    Milicia, Sicily

  10. #1860
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgus_of_Argos

    These J-L283 would be pelasgians

    In The Suppliants
    Edit
    In Aeschylus' play The Suppliants[4][5] the Danaïdes fleeing from Egypt seek asylum from King Pelasgus of Argos, who rules a broad territory bordered by the territory of the Paeonians to the north, the Strymon (river) to the east, and Dodona, the slopes of the Pindus mountains, and the sea to the west;[6], that is, a territory including or north of the Thessalian Pelasgiotis. The southern boundary is not mentioned; however, Apis is said to have come to Argos from Naupactus "on the farther shore," (on the north coast of the Gulf of Corinth) [7] implying that Pelasgus' kingdom includes all of Greece from the north of Thessaly west of the Strymon to the shores of Peloponnesian Argos where the Danaïdes landed. He claims to rule the Pelasgians and to be the "child of Palaichthon ('ancient earth') whom the earth brought forth."

    The Danaïdes call the country the "Apian hills" and claim that it understands the karbana audan,[8][9] which many translate as "barbarian speech" but Karba (where live the Karbanoi) is in fact a non-Greek word. They claim to descend from ancestors in ancient Argos even though they are of a "dark race" (melanthes... genos).[10] Pelasgus admits that the land was once called Apia but compares them to the women of Libya and Egypt[11] and wants to know how they can be from Argos on which they cite descent from Io.

    In a lost play by Aeschylus, Danaan Women, he defines the original homeland of the Pelasgians as the region around Mycenae.[12]

    Pelasgians were the original Mycenean greeks. Not e1b greeks it seems.
    Cetina J-L283 would be one of the Ancestors the real original greeks in the time of persues ( he was egyptian though also)
    Pelasgians stretched all the way to Paeonians plains which would definitely include J-L283 at that time. And they also existed at the time acleus, son of amphytron and alcmene (also of egyptian decent) who took the name after The original Egyptian heracles. He existed around 1300 BC and these samples are older than that.

    Maybe e1b came from ancient egypt thats why they show up more later.

  11. #1861
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The J2b-L283 samples in Mygdalia are the result of EBA Cetina migrations into Greece. Pelasgians or Aegean Neolithics nor Paeonians have anything to do with EBA Cetina or J2b-L283 at all. You should read the sources amigo.

  12. #1862
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgus_of_Argos

    These J-L283 would be pelasgians

    In The Suppliants
    Edit
    In Aeschylus' play The Suppliants[4][5] the Danaïdes fleeing from Egypt seek asylum from King Pelasgus of Argos, who rules a broad territory bordered by the territory of the Paeonians to the north, the Strymon (river) to the east, and Dodona, the slopes of the Pindus mountains, and the sea to the west;[6], that is, a territory including or north of the Thessalian Pelasgiotis. The southern boundary is not mentioned; however, Apis is said to have come to Argos from Naupactus "on the farther shore," (on the north coast of the Gulf of Corinth) [7] implying that Pelasgus' kingdom includes all of Greece from the north of Thessaly west of the Strymon to the shores of Peloponnesian Argos where the Danaïdes landed. He claims to rule the Pelasgians and to be the "child of Palaichthon ('ancient earth') whom the earth brought forth."

    The Danaïdes call the country the "Apian hills" and claim that it understands the karbana audan,[8][9] which many translate as "barbarian speech" but Karba (where live the Karbanoi) is in fact a non-Greek word. They claim to descend from ancestors in ancient Argos even though they are of a "dark race" (melanthes... genos).[10] Pelasgus admits that the land was once called Apia but compares them to the women of Libya and Egypt[11] and wants to know how they can be from Argos on which they cite descent from Io.

    In a lost play by Aeschylus, Danaan Women, he defines the original homeland of the Pelasgians as the region around Mycenae.[12]

    Pelasgians were the original Mycenean greeks. Not e1b greeks it seems.
    Cetina J-L283 would be one of the Ancestors the real original greeks in the time of persues ( he was egyptian though also)
    Pelasgians stretched all the way to Paeonians plains which would definitely include J-L283 at that time. And they also existed at the time acleus, son of amphytron and alcmene (also of egyptian decent) who took the name after The original Egyptian heracles. He existed around 1300 BC and these samples are older than that.

    Maybe e1b came from ancient egypt thats why they show up more later.

    The only island which was part owned by Argos

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palagru%C5%BEa


    Spartans did control Taranto on the Italian heel for a long time ......constantly at war against their neighbours the messapics

  13. #1863
    Regular Member Galaxy Overlord's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    So will all of the southern route theory people concede that J-L283 came from north of black sea when the Moldovan sample comes out?

  14. #1864
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    So will all of the southern route theory people concede that J-L283 came from north of black sea when the Moldovan sample comes out?
    Looking at the phylogeny of the so far 87 aDNA J2b-L283 samples nothing but a North to South migration was ever possible. Neither does the autosomal DNA support anything but a North to South migration. And all of this was evident since we had our very first J2b-L283, a little boy ID I4331 buried in Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia, 1600 BCE. Underneath is a list of 78 aDNA samples from the Western Balkans, Italy, Mediterranean. I have added 3 low coverage J2b (they are more than highly likely L283), the 4 Mygdalia and the 2 Pannonian Cemeteries samples.

    Sample (n=78) Site Date YDNA
    ID I18712 HRV_BA, D. Ostrvica-Pasičine, Croatia 2500-800 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
    ID MOK15 Maros EBA, Mokrin Necropolis, Serbia 2100-1800 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615
    ID I18746 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

    ID I18747 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
    ID I19029 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>Z600>?
    ID I11843 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
    ID I19032 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
    ID I19025 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>?
    ID I18088 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>?
    ID I19031 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283?
    ID I19026 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283?
    ID I18748

    HRV_BA, Bogomolje, Croatia

    1900-1600 BCE (~1750 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
    ID I8471 ALB_Cetina_MBA, Shkrel Shkodër, Malësia e Madhe, Albania 1880-1695 BCE (~1788 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

    ID I5080

    HRV_BA, Zavojane-Ravca, Velika Gomila, Croatia



    1743-1623 BCE (~1683 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

    ID I5073 HRV_BA, Koprivno, Croatia

    1732-1542 BCE (~1637 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

    ID I4331

    HRV_EMBA, Veliki Vanik, Croatia



    1631-1521 BCE (~1576 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

    ID MYG001

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>?

    ID MYG008

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>?

    ID MYG006

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>?

    ID MYG005

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>?

    ID I26726

    HRV_MBA, Gudnja cave, Croatia 1507-1415 BCE (~1461 BCE)

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

    ID I24345

    HRV_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia

    1500-400 BCE (~950 BCE) J2b-L283>?
    ID I5074

    HRV_BA, Matkovici, Croatia 1497-1397 BCE (~1447 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

    ID I13777

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

    ID I13775

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

    ID I14499 MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE) J2(b-L283?) 2nd or 3rd degree relative to I13777 and I13169 L283 samples)
    ID I13169

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1407-1271 BCE (~1339 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

    ID I13778

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1386-1212 BCE (~1299 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

    ID I14498

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1300-1000 BCE (~1150 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

    ID SAL001

    Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy

    1260–1048 BCE (~1142 BCE) J2b-L283?
    ID ORC003

    Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy ~1250 BCE

    J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157

    ID ORC007

    Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy ~1248 BCE J2b-L283>Z622>?

    ID I10553

    Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy



    1226-1056 BCE (~1155 BCE) J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157

    ID I13167

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1216-1052 BCE (~1134 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

    ID ORC008

    Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy ~1095 BCE J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>?

    ID NEO806

    Italy_BronzeAge, Grotta Delle Mura, Apulia , Italy



    ~1063 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

    ID I23911

    HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 891-797 BCE (~844 BCE)

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

    ID I23995

    HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 810-675 BCE (~743 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

    ID I26742

    HRV_EIA, Jazinka Cave, Croatia 800-600 BCE (~700 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

    ID I24639

    HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 795-567 BCE (~681 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

    ID I24638

    HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 795-567 BCE (~681 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

    ID I5691

    Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, Slovenia

    787-544 BCE (~666 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

    ID I24882

    HRV_EIA, Mala Metaljka, Croatia



    774-549 BCE (~662 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

    ID R474

    Iron Age/Roman Republic - Etruscan, Civitavecchia, Italy



    700-600 BCE (~650 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y45181

    ID I17633

    ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania

    700-400 BCE (~550 BCE) J2b-L283>?
    ID I16253

    ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania



    658-403 BCE (~531 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y 37121

    ID I16254

    ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania

    600-400 BCE (~500 BCE) J2b-L283>?



    ID I22940

    Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, Slovenia

    600-350 BCE (~475 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

    ID R11751

    CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia

    ~569 BCE

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602

    ID R11753

    CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia

    ~531 BCE

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

    ID CSN004

    Casenovole (Grosseto, Tuscany), Italy

    530-200 BCE (~365 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>?

    ID I5723

    HRV_IA, Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia



    514-391 BCE (~453 BCE) J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586

    ID SAL010 Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy



    500 BCE J2b-L283?
    ID I18831

    HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia

    500-1 BCE (~250 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

    ID I18830

    HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia



    500-1 BCE (~250 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602

    ID ORD014 Daunian_IA, Herdonia (modern Ordona), Italy

    ~489 BCE J2b-L283>?
    ID I4998

    Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, Kápolnadomb, Gór, Hungary

    391-208 BCE (~300 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>BY161113>BY162321

    ID R116

    Roman Era, Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria), Italy

    1 CE - 200 CE (~100 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631

    ID R9669

    Late Antiquity, Viminacium, Serbia



    129.5-310.5 CE (~220 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364 (xBY37860)

    ID R3481

    Late Antiquity, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro

    211-320.5 CE (~266 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043

    ID R6693

    Late Antiquity, Sviloš-Kruševlje, Serbia



    236.0-331.5 CE (~284 CE) J2b-L283>Z600>Z585>?
    ID R2040

    Late Antiquity, Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia

    245-402 CE (~323 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>Y263344>FT1 08131

    ID I15546

    Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia

    380–410 CE (~395 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>?

    ID I15548 Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia

    380–410 CE (~395 CE)


    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043

    ID I15547

    Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia 380–410 CE (~395 CE)



    J2b-L283>?

    ID R3543

    Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia



    431-600.5 CE (~516 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>FTA60432>FT A61140

    ID R3544

    Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia 549.5-600.5 CE (~575 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>FGC55778>FT2 12328

    ID Hacs_24 Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary 600-500 CE (~550 CE ) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
    ID Hacs_10 Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary 600-500 CE (~550 CE) J2b-L283>?
    ID VEN006

    Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy



    650-763 CE (~686 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507>?

    ID ALT-77 / ERS9945038

    Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle, Alattyán-Tulát, Hungary



    ~648 CE

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>Y32373>FT33245

    ID VEN013

    Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy

    670-775 CE (~757 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>PH1602>Y86930

    ID VPB-307 / ERS9945291

    Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite, Vörs-Papkert B, Hungary



    ~800 CE

    J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP61>YP29>YP181

    ID SP-2 / ERS9945222

    Hungary_Conq_Elite, Sárrétudvari-Poroshalom, Hungary

    ~950 CE

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y27522>Y23097

    ID R9918

    Early Medieval, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro

    996.5-1150.5 CE (~1073 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y272857

    ID R54

    Medieval, Villa Magna, Italy

    1280-1430 CE (~1355 CE)

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y23094

    ID I15707

    Albania_PostMdv, Bardhoc, Albania



    1472-1632 CE (~1552 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631


  15. #1865
    Regular Member Galaxy Overlord's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    any news gents?

  16. #1866
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    any news gents?

    it is part of the inner core on map below .................the other area is the areas where there people traded to


  17. #1867
    Regular Member Galaxy Overlord's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Research fund for those who aren't aware:

    https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283...ade-wish-list/


    J2b-L283 Hunter Provyn update video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=277J...l=HunterProvyn

  18. #1868
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Looking at the phylogeny of the so far 87 aDNA J2b-L283 samples nothing but a North to South migration was ever possible. Neither does the autosomal DNA support anything but a North to South migration. And all of this was evident since we had our very first J2b-L283, a little boy ID I4331 buried in Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia, 1600 BCE. Underneath is a list of 78 aDNA samples from the Western Balkans, Italy, Mediterranean. I have added 3 low coverage J2b (they are more than highly likely L283), the 4 Mygdalia and the 2 Pannonian Cemeteries samples.

    Sample (n=78) Site Date YDNA
    ID I18712 HRV_BA, D. Ostrvica-Pasičine, Croatia 2500-800 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
    ID MOK15 Maros EBA, Mokrin Necropolis, Serbia 2100-1800 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615
    ID I18746 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

    ID I18747 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
    ID I19029 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>Z600>?
    ID I11843 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
    ID I19032 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
    ID I19025 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>?
    ID I18088 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283>?
    ID I19031 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283?
    ID I19026 HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia 2000-1600 BCE J2b-L283?
    ID I18748

    HRV_BA, Bogomolje, Croatia

    1900-1600 BCE (~1750 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
    ID I8471 ALB_Cetina_MBA, Shkrel Shkodër, Malësia e Madhe, Albania 1880-1695 BCE (~1788 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

    ID I5080

    HRV_BA, Zavojane-Ravca, Velika Gomila, Croatia



    1743-1623 BCE (~1683 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

    ID I5073 HRV_BA, Koprivno, Croatia

    1732-1542 BCE (~1637 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

    ID I4331

    HRV_EMBA, Veliki Vanik, Croatia



    1631-1521 BCE (~1576 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

    ID MYG001

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>?

    ID MYG008

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>?

    ID MYG006

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>?

    ID MYG005

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>?

    ID I26726

    HRV_MBA, Gudnja cave, Croatia 1507-1415 BCE (~1461 BCE)

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

    ID I24345

    HRV_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia

    1500-400 BCE (~950 BCE) J2b-L283>?
    ID I5074

    HRV_BA, Matkovici, Croatia 1497-1397 BCE (~1447 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

    ID I13777

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

    ID I13775

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

    ID I14499 MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE) J2(b-L283?) 2nd or 3rd degree relative to I13777 and I13169 L283 samples)
    ID I13169

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1407-1271 BCE (~1339 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

    ID I13778

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1386-1212 BCE (~1299 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

    ID I14498

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1300-1000 BCE (~1150 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

    ID SAL001

    Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy

    1260–1048 BCE (~1142 BCE) J2b-L283?
    ID ORC003

    Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy ~1250 BCE

    J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157

    ID ORC007

    Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy ~1248 BCE J2b-L283>Z622>?

    ID I10553

    Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy



    1226-1056 BCE (~1155 BCE) J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157

    ID I13167

    MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro 1216-1052 BCE (~1134 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

    ID ORC008

    Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy ~1095 BCE J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>?

    ID NEO806

    Italy_BronzeAge, Grotta Delle Mura, Apulia , Italy



    ~1063 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

    ID I23911

    HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 891-797 BCE (~844 BCE)

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

    ID I23995

    HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 810-675 BCE (~743 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

    ID I26742

    HRV_EIA, Jazinka Cave, Croatia 800-600 BCE (~700 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

    ID I24639

    HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 795-567 BCE (~681 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

    ID I24638

    HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia 795-567 BCE (~681 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

    ID I5691

    Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, Slovenia

    787-544 BCE (~666 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

    ID I24882

    HRV_EIA, Mala Metaljka, Croatia



    774-549 BCE (~662 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

    ID R474

    Iron Age/Roman Republic - Etruscan, Civitavecchia, Italy



    700-600 BCE (~650 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y45181

    ID I17633

    ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania

    700-400 BCE (~550 BCE) J2b-L283>?
    ID I16253

    ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania



    658-403 BCE (~531 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y 37121

    ID I16254

    ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania

    600-400 BCE (~500 BCE) J2b-L283>?



    ID I22940

    Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, Slovenia

    600-350 BCE (~475 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

    ID R11751

    CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia

    ~569 BCE

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602

    ID R11753

    CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia

    ~531 BCE

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

    ID CSN004

    Casenovole (Grosseto, Tuscany), Italy

    530-200 BCE (~365 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>?

    ID I5723

    HRV_IA, Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia



    514-391 BCE (~453 BCE) J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586

    ID SAL010 Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy



    500 BCE J2b-L283?
    ID I18831

    HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia

    500-1 BCE (~250 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

    ID I18830

    HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia



    500-1 BCE (~250 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602

    ID ORD014 Daunian_IA, Herdonia (modern Ordona), Italy

    ~489 BCE J2b-L283>?
    ID I4998

    Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, Kápolnadomb, Gór, Hungary

    391-208 BCE (~300 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>BY161113>BY162321

    ID R116

    Roman Era, Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria), Italy

    1 CE - 200 CE (~100 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631

    ID R9669

    Late Antiquity, Viminacium, Serbia



    129.5-310.5 CE (~220 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364 (xBY37860)

    ID R3481

    Late Antiquity, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro

    211-320.5 CE (~266 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043

    ID R6693

    Late Antiquity, Sviloš-Kruševlje, Serbia



    236.0-331.5 CE (~284 CE) J2b-L283>Z600>Z585>?
    ID R2040

    Late Antiquity, Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia

    245-402 CE (~323 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>Y263344>FT1 08131

    ID I15546

    Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia

    380–410 CE (~395 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>?

    ID I15548 Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia

    380–410 CE (~395 CE)


    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043

    ID I15547

    Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia 380–410 CE (~395 CE)



    J2b-L283>?

    ID R3543

    Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia



    431-600.5 CE (~516 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>FTA60432>FT A61140

    ID R3544

    Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia 549.5-600.5 CE (~575 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>FGC55778>FT2 12328

    ID Hacs_24 Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary 600-500 CE (~550 CE ) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
    ID Hacs_10 Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary 600-500 CE (~550 CE) J2b-L283>?
    ID VEN006

    Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy



    650-763 CE (~686 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507>?

    ID ALT-77 / ERS9945038

    Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle, Alattyán-Tulát, Hungary



    ~648 CE

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>Y32373>FT33245

    ID VEN013

    Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy

    670-775 CE (~757 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>PH1602>Y86930

    ID VPB-307 / ERS9945291

    Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite, Vörs-Papkert B, Hungary



    ~800 CE

    J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP61>YP29>YP181

    ID SP-2 / ERS9945222

    Hungary_Conq_Elite, Sárrétudvari-Poroshalom, Hungary

    ~950 CE

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y27522>Y23097

    ID R9918

    Early Medieval, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro

    996.5-1150.5 CE (~1073 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y272857

    ID R54

    Medieval, Villa Magna, Italy

    1280-1430 CE (~1355 CE)

    J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y23094

    ID I15707

    Albania_PostMdv, Bardhoc, Albania



    1472-1632 CE (~1552 CE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631


    which of these samples belong to the same family tree...that is, from the same family ?

  19. #1869
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b-L283>Y126399
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

    Country: Kosovo



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    any news gents?
    Yes, Trojet has analyzed the Mygdalia samples and they are J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597):

    ID MYG001

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
    ID MYG008

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
    ID MYG006

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
    ID MYG005

    MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece 1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

    J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216

  20. #1870
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    Besides the Mygdalia series, there are 3 other individuals that are autosomally Illyrian derived, though pretty much all have admixed with the locals.


  21. #1871
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Besides the Mygdalia series, there are 3 other individuals that are autosomally Illyrian derived, though pretty much all have admixed with the locals.

    Mygd 005 has no cetina culture admixture it looks but it is J-L283.
    What is MNE?

  22. #1872
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Are they decendants of MOK 15? It appears so.
    Means a migration from serbia down to greece

    Means we should find ancient J-L283 eventually also probably in lands between serbia and greece between 2000BC and 1500 BC. J-L283 would probably migrate to albania during this time and also into some parts of macadonia and kosovo.

  23. #1873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Mygd 005 has no cetina culture admixture it looks but it is J-L283.
    What is MNE?
    Montenegro late bronze age. MNE is Cetina but frontier Cetina, it is quite mixed with a population that resembles MKD groups, which during BA occupied much of Albania. In BA collapse, these groups get booted into Italy and Greece, and Illyrian territorial space grows.


  24. #1874
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Mygd 005 has no cetina culture admixture it looks but it is J-L283.
    What is MNE?
    Velika Gruda in Montenegro

    it originates from

    Illyricum_Pannonia_Savia

    some believe pannonians are Illyrians and some do not

  25. #1875
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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