J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[mount123]

It does not take much effort to scroll through this thread to find answers or explanations to questions that might concern one.

Quote from Trojet regarding your question:

Three new samples have been added to the J2b-L283 ancient DNA map:

• NEO806, 1063 BCE, Grotta Delle Mura, Italy_BronzeAge, J2b2a1a1a1a1a1b, which corresponds to: J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
• R11751, 569 BCE, Kerkouane, Tunisia Iron Age: J2b-L283>>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
• R11753, 531 BCE, Kerkouane, Tunisia Iron Age: J2b-L283>>Y15058>Z38240

Considering the timing and the location, NEO806 should be a Iapygian (Paucetian?) sample. J2b-L283 has been confirmed among the Daunians as well, though no deeper classification is available due to low coverage. This sample suggests that Iapygians carried at least some J-Z638 subclades, which is the predominant J2b-L283 branch among the Albanians.


With regards to R11751 and R11753, considering the phylogeny of J-Z38240>PH1602 and since we have older J-Z38240 aDNA samples from modern Croatia, their more distant origin likely lies somewhere in the eastern Adriatic.
Kerkouane, which is in the Tunisian coast, seems to have been a trade town: "Hardly any agriculture: this town lived for trade (with Phoenicia itself and the Greek world) and trades (stonemasons, purple painters, potters...). Still, several fishermen". https://www.livius.org/articles/place/kerkouane/

 

[Wanderer]

J2b-L283 is unlikely a Phoenician/Berber marker, it has been found in Sardinia, and in North Africa it came from Italy, Greece, or the Balkans.

No but they used mercenaries. And some people may have been absorbed into the phonecian population after settlement.
Also romans settled in north africa.

Although J-L283 in general is not a common haplogroup. In relation to populations haplogroup make up.
We know some north africans have european autosomal dna in their make up.
Otherwise why did we find J-L283 in tunisia at 500 BC? We found 2 samples. Carthage was founded 1000BC. At around 7th century it became much more developed.

We know have a turk with J-L283.
We have two Ancient J-L283 samples
We have ancient georgian and ancient armenian J-L283 samples. Yes we have ancient sardinian J-L283. I think they are corsican samples. But we dont have ancient french J-L283 samples or ancient german J-L283 samples. There is an ancient viking one strangely.
We dont have ancient iberian J-L283 or british isle J-L283 samples i think.
Im latin American. My ancestors name was Cotes. Its not a common spanish name but from my experience looking its more common in southern spain. Especially in anadalucia cadiz and nearby areas. But also south eastern spain. In france cotes is associated with languedoc which is different but an ancient greek colony was established nearby there called massalia.

We also have a colombian that had ancestors that were middle eastern that came out J-L283 under the clade J-Y95770
Under lebanese. Date of TMRCA is about TMRCA 2100 but to other european samples J-Y146401 is 2900 Tmrca YBP
Lebanese are decendants of phonecians. So perhaps phonecians absorbed J-L283 although at low levels.

 

[mount123]

The Georgian sample is not J2b-L283. The Kerkouane samples' Y DNA and autosomal DNA are not native to North Africa. The Iron Age Sardinian samples are part of the Nuragic Civilization, so there is nothing "Corsican" about them. J2b-L283 is very common in Northern Albania, Malesia e Madhe, Kosovo and other albanophone regions other than that it is also present in some other areas of Europe.

I have reported you since these repetitive non sense posts made by certain users are really annoying for us genuinely interested in the thread's topic and scientific evidence.

I really hope that the moderators will put an end to these kind of accounts.

 

[Trojet]

It's the usual bizarre claims by user Wanderer. At the time when we had I4331 from MBA Dalmatia as the only J2b-L283 aDNA sample, he even suggested he was a kidnapped kid from Georgia/Kura-Araxes culture, or something along those lines (can't seem to find the post).

If you have some time to waste, you can read some of his old posts starting from page 7..

 

[Fustan]

I wonder what happened to that French guy who obsessed about some J2-L283 clade being Celtic. Totally disappeared.

 

[Wanderer]

The Georgian sample is not J2b-L283. The Kerkouane samples' Y DNA and autosomal DNA are not native to North Africa. The Iron Age Sardinian samples are part of the Nuragic Civilization, so there is nothing "Corsican" about them. J2b-L283 is very common in Northern Albania, Malesia e Madhe, Kosovo and other albanophone regions other than that it is also present in some other areas of Europe.

I have reported you since these repetitive non sense posts made by certain users are really annoying for us genuinely interested in the thread's topic and scientific evidence.

I really hope that the moderators will put an end to these kind of accounts.

No I am saying
they were corsican samples tested for but I think they were concluded to be J-L283 but not enough markers or quality to test further downstream

https://phylogeographer.com/insight...ce-j2b-l283-strs-from-king-and-di-cristofaro/

https://phylogeographer.com/iron-ag...s-found-in-phoenician-city-kerkouane-tunisia/


J-L283 in that time is not native to north africa. No one said that. I said it migrated. Or else how could J-L283 exist outside the balkans? Or sardinia?
The sardinian samples are dated to about 1000BC but about 900BC the phonecians are said to have arrived

The spanish one there is not a ancient sample.

 

[Wanderer]

It's the usual bizarre claims by user Wanderer. At the time when we had I4331 from MBA Dalmatia as the only J2b-L283 aDNA sample, he even suggested he was a kidnapped kid from Georgia/Kura-Araxes culture, or something along those lines [emoji38]2: (can't seem to find the post).

If you have some time to waste, you can read some of his old posts starting from page 7..

Yes because it was only 1 sample from that area. We should have at least 2.
In sardinia we have more than one.

We have more than one ancient sample in Italy. Sardinia. Corsica.
0 in spain. 2 in tunisia. We have more ancient samples in the caucus then we do in the croatia location for where we found a croatian sample.

 

[torzio]

No but they used mercenaries. And some people may have been absorbed into the phonecian population after settlement.
Also romans settled in north africa.

Although J-L283 in general is not a common haplogroup. In relation to populations haplogroup make up.
We know some north africans have european autosomal dna in their make up.
Otherwise why did we find J-L283 in tunisia at 500 BC? We found 2 samples. Carthage was founded 1000BC. At around 7th century it became much more developed.

We know have a turk with J-L283.
We have two Ancient J-L283 samples
We have ancient georgian and ancient armenian J-L283 samples. Yes we have ancient sardinian J-L283. I think they are corsican samples. But we dont have ancient french J-L283 samples or ancient german J-L283 samples. There is an ancient viking one strangely.
We dont have ancient iberian J-L283 or british isle J-L283 samples i think.
Im latin American. My ancestors name was Cotes. Its not a common spanish name but from my experience looking its more common in southern spain. Especially in anadalucia cadiz and nearby areas. But also south eastern spain. In france cotes is associated with languedoc which is different but an ancient greek colony was established nearby there called massalia.

We also have a colombian that had ancestors that were middle eastern that came out J-L283 under the clade J-Y95770
Under lebanese. Date of TMRCA is about TMRCA 2100 but to other european samples J-Y146401 is 2900 Tmrca YBP
Lebanese are decendants of phonecians. So perhaps phonecians absorbed J-L283 although at low levels.

The first decent map of I have seen in regards to Greek and Phoenician med. areas

 

[mount123]

Yes because it was only 1 sample from that area. We should have at least 2.
In sardinia we have more than one.

We have more than one ancient sample in Italy. Sardinia. Corsica.
0 in spain. 2 in tunisia. We have more ancient samples in the caucus then we do in the croatia location for where we found a croatian sample.

I advice you to stop derailing this thread with your non evidential non sense.

You have two hands, two eyes and can go through this thread for more information regarding the phylogeny of J2b-L283 for which you obviously have no idea about but somehow still post pseudo scientific stuff. You can find the link for the aDNA J2b-L283 map Trojet has provided too. You can also google by yourself the y full tree of J2b-L283 where all the numerous Iron Age Illyrian and MBA Dalmatian Posusje samples have been added.

Am I clear enough? Now get off this thread.

 

[mount123]

If you have some time to waste, you can read some of his old posts starting from page 7..

I did and I wish I never had :embarassed:

 

[Wanderer]

I advice you to stop derailing this thread with your non evidential non sense.

You have two hands, two eyes and can go through this thread for more information regarding the phylogeny of J2b-L283 for which you obviously have no idea about but somehow still post pseudo scientific stuff. You can find the link for the aDNA J2b-L283 map Trojet has provided too. You can also google by yourself the y full tree of J2b-L283 where all the numerous Iron Age Illyrian and MBA Dalmatian Posusje samples have been added.

Am I clear enough? Now get off this thread.

I merely gave historical context and showed evidence of J-L283 hailing of latin American origin but with lebanese ties and being related to an albanian and a indian christian., referencing the ancient samples found in tunisia at 500 BC. Which at the time WAS A PHONECIAN SETTLEMENT. but no ancient samples in spain
No one is saying the majority of J2b-L283 went down this path. I am saying that some J2b-L283 probably was absorbed by phonecians and dispersed through phonecians after absorption. The majority of J2b-L283 remained in italy and the balkans with random dispersal in the gaulic and german regions.

I suspect my J2b-L283 lineage was aborbed by phonecians and then into spain. Because I have 0 old worlder matches.

 

[mount123]

I merely gave historical context and showed evidence of J-L283 hailing of latin American origin but with lebanese ties and being related to an albanian and a indian christian., referencing the ancient samples found in tunisia at 500 BC. Which at the time WAS A PHONECIAN SETTLEMENT. but no ancient samples in spain
No one is saying the majority of J2b-L283 went down this path. I am saying that some J2b-L283 probably was absorbed by phonecians and dispersed through phonecians after absorption. The majority of J2b-L283 remained in italy and the balkans with random dispersal in the gaulic and german regions.

I suspect my J2b-L283 lineage was aborbed by phonecians and then into spain. Because I have 0 old worlder matches.

The Kerkoune samples trace back their ultimate paternal origin to the East Adriatic where there are much older Iron Age Illyrian samples. The autosomal DNA of the Kerkouane samples too is not Middle Eastern or North African.

You are not contributing to this thread other than posting non sense. For the sake of all of us genuinely interested in the thread's topic leave now.

 

[Wanderer]

The Kerkoune samples trace back their ultimate paternal origin to the East Adriatic where there are much older Iron Age Illyrian samples. The autosomal DNA of the Kerkouane samples too is not Middle Eastern or North African.

You are not contributing to this thread other than posting non sense. For the sake of all of us genuinely interested in the thread's topic leave now.

And it was still found where? At what time? When tunsia was carthage?
Many goths didnt mix with romans. They would have gothic dna. Doesnt mean they werent in rome. Being used as soldiers. Living in the territories. Or even adopting roman customs.
And we have a colombian and lebanese J-L283 decendants?

 

[Wanderer]

I wonder what happened to that French guy who obsessed about some J2-L283 clade being Celtic. Totally disappeared.

Some J2b-L283 may have been absorbed by celts. Romans were raiding and having their way.

In herodotus book of histories i think he mentions some greeks joined celts and wandered off and became britons. But its just what herodotus said.
Id have to look this up another time. I am not saying its 100 percent for sure true. But it is an interesting saying by herodotus in his book. I forget what tribe or people of greeks.

 

[Wanderer]

I advice you to stop derailing this thread with your non evidential non sense.

You have two hands, two eyes and can go through this thread for more information regarding the phylogeny of J2b-L283 for which you obviously have no idea about but somehow still post pseudo scientific stuff. You can find the link for the aDNA J2b-L283 map Trojet has provided too. You can also google by yourself the y full tree of J2b-L283 where all the numerous Iron Age Illyrian and MBA Dalmatian Posusje samples have been added.

Am I clear enough? Now get off this thread.

Ok looking over y full theres more adriatic samples before from when i had looked at this years ago. So J-L283 is adriatic with sardinians that likely were mercenaries into carthage phonecia. That would explain why we have ancient tunisian J-L283 and lebanese J-L283.

 

[Riverman]

Ok looking over y full theres more adriatic samples before from when i had looked at this years ago. So J-L283 is adriatic with sardinians that likely were mercenaries into carthage phonecia. That would explain why we have ancient tunisian J-L283 and lebanese J-L283.

I think some old branches from the Balkans came with Sea Peoples. There are a couple, including for E-V13.

 

[Wanderer]

I think some old branches from the Balkans came with Sea Peoples. There are a couple, including for E-V13.

Its always possible. I saw a bit about illyrians and they were sea fearing people and many were pirates. Plus many J-L283 landed in sardinia which is where one of the sea peoples were.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

What's going on with that J2b sample? I'm hearing they mislabelled it or something?
I think if this is found in those HGs it will pretty much prove J2b2-L283 was a minor lineage in the Indo-European invasions taken from CH-shifted Hunter Gatherers.

So far ancient j2b l283 has yet to be found alongside any r1b so very unlikely. If proto illyrians were exclusively j2b l283 it looks likely that they may have not spoken an indo european language initially

 

[Polska]

So far ancient j2b l283 has yet to be found alongside any r1b so very unlikely. If proto illyrians were exclusively j2b l283 it looks likely that they may have not spoken an indo european language initially

Here you go. Have a read and feel free to report back regarding your assertion that ancient J-L283 and R-Z2103 or R-M269 have never been buried alongside one another. Pay particular close attention to Mokrin.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.30.454498v1.full.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Here you go. Have a read and feel free to report back regarding your assertion that ancient J-L283 and R-Z2103 or R-M269 have never been buried alongside one another. Pay particular close attention to Mokrin.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.30.454498v1.full.pdf
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1

This is from 2000BC and why are you ignoring all the i2a found in mokrin (4x) which looked to carry elite items but bringing up the 1 j2b?

Anyway, what does mokrin being mostly i2a and r1b have to do with j2b l283 being found (10+) in croatia and italy + north africa but never alongside any r1b? Doesnt this mean the j2b l283 wiped out the mokrin r1b/i2a in those regions or was pushed back by the mokrin r1b/i2a to the coast?