J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Fustan said:
What are we to make of J2b2 being found in ancient samples from the Italian peninsula?
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Couple of things I guess.

Some sort of association with the western Balkans given that 3/3 Etruscan samples are likely downstream of HRV MBA L283. Yet, peculiarly, despite hinting at an obvious connection with NW Balkans due to the YDNA, the autosomal profile is quite southern, in fact Apulians are the closest modern population based on some calculator I can not recall off the top of my head. This is weird, since the Daunians, likely z638, autosomal based on the authors conclusion had no continuity in todays Apulian's (not any of the top 25 modern populations in similarity), or any connection to the Greeks of the time for that matter (Magna Grecia), culturally or otherwise. Yet, here we are, a further north YDNA, associated with Etruscans, seems to have a more south-east med/Balkan autosomal makeup, (and maybe some autosomal continuity with Apulians?).

Whatever the case, L283 has been very lucky with ancient samples as of late.
First Maros, then rumored North Albania BA, then Daunians, then more Etruscans, and now I hear ""~30% of ancient Roman samples (0-400 AD) from Viminacium , and ~25% of Roman/Early Medieval samples (300-700 AD) from Timacum Minus are E-V13."

"It's from an upcoming aDNA paper by Reich's team. Since most, if not all sequencing and subsequent analyses are done (autosomal, Y-DNA, mtDNA), I hope we'll see the paper published this year. As per usual, they didn't bother much with Y chromosome, so we'll have to wait BAM files to discover deeper subclades. There are also J2b2a-L283 and R1b-Z2103>CTS1450 samples from Timacum Minus, dated 300-500 AD."
^As quoted from Waldemar on Anthrogenica.

What we can say for sure, around LBA-IA L283 liked to get around, and in my opinion I suspect given in how many different "unrelated" cultures it has been found, it must have had some widespread demographic boom and been incorporated into all these ancient peoples before this period. What gave this haplo the advantage to spread their seed around, I am not quite sure, but it must have been some Bronze Age technology, or phenomena.
 
Serb from inner Dalmatia here. I'm autosomally SW shifted compared to other samples from my area that I saw.
 
nowsevar said:
Serb from inner Dalmatia here. I'm autosomally SW shifted compared to other samples from my area that I saw.
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The Daunian sample left Dalmatia for Foggia area in Italy circa 1000BC

sample ORD014 mtdna I5a2 ydnaJ2b2-L283 .........


you have an Italian flag !?

 
torzio said:
The Daunian sample left Dalmatia for Foggia area in Italy circa 1000BC

sample ORD014 mtdna I5a2 ydnaJ2b2-L283 .........


you have an Italian flag !?
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I came here with my family as a child in the 90s.
 
nowsevar said:
I came here with my family as a child in the 90s.
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You must feel right at home, given all these Italian ancient samples coming out L283.

PS: The Dinaric Taliban description had me rolling.
 
Archetype0ne said:
You must feel right at home, given all these Italian ancient samples coming out L283.

PS: The Dinaric Taliban description had me rolling.
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What other haplos were the Daunians and Etruscans? Did any of them happen to be R1b-L23 or was it some other R1b clade? Afaik there was no EV13.
 
Fustan said:
What other haplos were the Daunians and Etruscans? Did any of them happen to be R1b-L23 or was it some other R1b clade? Afaik there was no EV13.
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I think there was z2103 in the Daunian paper. About Etruscans, I am not too sure, there is too many samples to remember, but IIRC L23 was there, someone correct me if I am wrong.
 
Fustan said:
What other haplos were the Daunians and Etruscans? Did any of them happen to be R1b-L23 or was it some other R1b clade? Afaik there was no EV13.
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Archetype0ne said:
I think there was z2103 in the Daunian paper. About Etruscans, I am not too sure, there is too many samples to remember, but IIRC L23 was there, someone correct me if I am wrong.
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Yes, there is at least one R1b-L23>Z2103 among the Daunians. There is two other R1b, one of them is unclassified below R1b-M269, and the second is under R1b-L23>L51>P312. Besides these, there is also one I2a-M223 sample.

For Etruscans, their R1b seems exclusively under R1b-L23>L51 (ie. the one that's characteristic for NW Europe), and in fact, it seems to be their predominant Y-DNA haplogroup overall, based on the recent study.

In regards to J2b-L283, thus far all Etruscan samples that we've been able to classify more specifically are under J-Y15058>Z38240, the branch of I4331 MBA Dalmatia. So this clearly suggests these "Etruscan" J2b-L283 lineages migrated from Northwestern Balkans, which is also backed up by the autosomal profile of R474 sample.

On the other hand, according to the preprint data of the Daunian study, at least two Daunian J2b-L283 samples should be under J-Z638 branch, where the vast majority of Albanian J2b-L283 belongs.
 
Trojet said:
Yes, there is at least one R1b-L23>Z2103 among the Daunians. There is two other R1b, one of them is unclassified below R1b-M269, and the second is under R1b-L23>L51>P312. Besides these, there is also one I2a-M223 sample.
For Etruscans, their R1b seems exclusively under R1b-L23>L51 (ie. the one that's characteristic for NW Europe), and in fact, it seems to be their predominant Y-DNA haplogroup overall, based on the recent study.
In regards to J2b-L283, thus far all Etruscan samples that we've been able to classify more specifically are under J-Y15058>Z38240, the branch of I4331 MBA Dalmatia. So this clearly suggests these "Etruscan" J2b-L283 lineages migrated from Northwestern Balkans, which is also backed up by the autosomal profile of R474 sample.
On the other hand, according to the preprint data of the Daunian study, at least two Daunian J2b-L283 samples should be under J-Z638 branch, where the vast majority of Albanian J2b-L283 belongs.
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there are only 4 daunian croatian samples .......ORD001, ORD004, ORD014 and SGR003

2 females and ORD014 is J2-L283 and the other male is ORD004 which is R1b .........is this your L23 ?

all other samples in the Daunian paper are from Italy
 
Trojet said:
Yes, there is at least one R1b-L23>Z2103 among the Daunians. There is two other R1b, one of them is unclassified below R1b-M269, and the second is under R1b-L23>L51>P312. Besides these, there is also one I2a-M223 sample.
For Etruscans, their R1b seems exclusively under R1b-L23>L51 (ie. the one that's characteristic for NW Europe), and in fact, it seems to be their predominant Y-DNA haplogroup overall, based on the recent study.
In regards to J2b-L283, thus far all Etruscan samples that we've been able to classify more specifically are under J-Y15058>Z38240, the branch of I4331 MBA Dalmatia. So this clearly suggests these "Etruscan" J2b-L283 lineages migrated from Northwestern Balkans, which is also backed up by the autosomal profile of R474 sample.
On the other hand, according to the preprint data of the Daunian study, at least two Daunian J2b-L283 samples should be under J-Z638 branch, where the vast majority of Albanian J2b-L283 belongs.
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Thanks for the great information as always, Trojet.
 
torzio said:
there are only 4 daunian croatian samples .......ORD001, ORD004, ORD014 and SGR003
2 females and ORD014 is J2-L283 and the other male is ORD004 which is R1b .........is this your L23 ?
all other samples in the Daunian paper are from Italy
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For the record, in regards to the Daunians, all the samples and SNP data I pulled out above can be found here (Supplementary Material > Data S1): https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.30.454498v1
 
torzio said:
yes
but only 4 are croatian/Dalmatian linked
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That's just "autosomal affinity" for all the Daunian samples, 4 of which have higher affinity to "Croatia EIA".

Besides, according to the Supplementary Material, ORD014 and SAL001 should be paternal relatives, as they both should be under J2b-L283>>Z638>>BY23734 (this is to be confirmed once BAM files/raw data are published).
Yet, in the above graph, they are placed into different autosomal clusters..
 
Vettor please leave my thread. You have been obsessed about albanians since I even joined this forum in 2015, spreading false information and theories undermining our history and ethnicity. Seek medication, seek help.
 
Fustan said:
Vettor please leave my thread. You have been obsessed about albanians since I even joined this forum in 2015, spreading false information and theories undermining our history and ethnicity. Seek medication, seek help.
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Let Vettor enjoy himself, and we can enjoy vicariously through him.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
blevins13 said:
Let Vettor enjoy himself, and we can enjoy vicariously through him.


Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum
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He still doesn't know the difference from I2a2 and I2a-Din. He is simply not mentally well and all he does is pollute his own mind and threads about Albanians. I'd rather people stop giving him attention.
 
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Does anyone have a compiled list of *all* ancient J-L283 samples? It would be nice to see a clear concise list of all ancient J-L283 samples.
 
Fustan said:
yeah something like the google sheets/excel pic is what I was looking for, would be great to have it updated or just to have a public link of the document
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Will try to update it when I find some time.
 
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