J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

I agree with this and i want to say,

Its simmilar to what i said few pages back: "However, as we know oldest IE cultures were pretty much homogenous R1a or R1b, also by looking at all other evidences as earlier splits when going upward the genetic tree, by my theory J2b-L283 was some kind of North Caucasus population originally. Probably offshot from Zagros to Caucasus, giving that oldest J2b-M12* was found in Zagros mountains."


By all so far given proofs M241 is probably Zagros Paleolithic, same as J2-M205. M241 clade is most likely Zagros expansion to Caucasus.


Oldest J2b-M12* ancient DNA are from Zagros and earlier splits are all on both sides on Zagros while almost none existent in Caucasus.

Always enjoyed reading your posts, as well as those from Trojet, Dibran, and Aspurg. Good source of information on L283 for me.

I can’t believe given the advancements in the phylogenetic tree, people still believe Alexander the Great spread J2b M241 to Iran or that J2b L283 originated in the Middle East. Takes 30 seconds to login to YFull and look at the YTree. It’s an overwhelmingly European haplogroup (L283) with only a few samples total outside of Europe.
 
I have an interesting theory regarding how my PH1602 line may have wound up in southern Poland. They are from a village called Slopnice, which is in the Beskid Mountains in southern Poland near Slovakia. I was just reading about the Beskid Mountains today. The one thing that stood out was that the supposed origins of the name Beskid is either Illyrian or Thracian. Beskid is the same thing as bjeshkë in Albanian. I have traced my y line back to at least the year 900 in southern Poland, but not beyond. Many of the samples on the YFull YTree for PH1602 are from Serbia, Bulgaria, and Bosnia (along with Germany, Russia, and US). So I’m thinking there was potentially an ancient migration of Illyrians or closely related people to southern Poland from the Balkans. I’m wondering if there are any historical accounts of any such migration long ago?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskids

Also, I did find this link regarding the Púchov culture that was nearby and influenced by Illyrian culture (about 2200 years ago):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture
 
I have an interesting theory regarding how my PH1602 line may have wound up in southern Poland. They are from a village called Slopnice, which is in the Beskid Mountains in southern Poland near Slovakia. I was just reading about the Beskid Mountains today. The one thing that stood out was that the supposed origins of the name Beskid is either Illyrian or Thracian. Beskid is the same thing as bjeshkë in Albanian. I have traced my y line back to at least the year 900 in southern Poland, but not beyond. Many of the samples on the YFull YTree for PH1602 are from Serbia, Bulgaria, and Bosnia (along with Germany, Russia, and US). So I’m thinking there was potentially an ancient migration of Illyrians or closely related people to southern Poland from the Balkans. I’m wondering if there are any historical accounts of any such migration long ago?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskids

Also, I did find this link regarding the Púchov culture that was nearby and influenced by Illyrian culture (about 2200 years ago):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture

Could it be related to the Goral people?

Goral folk dress compared to Alb:

D5Y1xH1WsAAFXXz


D5Y1xH2XkAEkuMZ


Vs

D2rPousWkAI9TjR
 
J2b L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup that most likely moved north through the Caucasus Mountains to what is today southern Russia/Steppe and was integrated into the westward Indo European expansions from there into Europe, probably Central Europe and into the Balkans with the Illyrians and closely related tribes. There is a mounting body of evidence using current samples and ancient samples (Russia, Croatia) that supports this migration path.
https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-...he-black-sea-migration-from-w-asia-to-europe/

So did l283 come into the balkans after ilyrians were already established there or before? If they came WITH other ilyrian haplogroups from the same region at the same time modern y dna doesn't seem to back this up. J2b l283 has a stronghold in North East albania/kosova but is depleted in regions surrounding

Which other haplogroup sub clades came WITH j2b l283 to balkans at the same time? They must have a similar ratio to what they had in today's genetics for it to be viable. So if it was 2:1 j2b and whatever else it has to be similar today for it to make sense
 
So did l283 come into the balkans after ilyrians were already established there or before? If they came WITH other ilyrian haplogroups from the same region at the same time modern y dna doesn't seem to back this up. J2b l283 has a stronghold in North East albania/kosova but is depleted in regions surrounding

Which other haplogroup sub clades came WITH j2b l283 to balkans at the same time? They must have a similar ratio to what they had in today's genetics for it to be viable. So if it was 2:1 j2b and whatever else it has to be similar today for it to make sense
You and these ratios....

Ratios mean nothing, a haplogroups frequency can change within a couple of generations. You've still got a lot of reading to do.
 
Could it be related to the Goral people?

Goral folk dress compared to Alb:

D5Y1xH1WsAAFXXz


D5Y1xH2XkAEkuMZ


Vs

D2rPousWkAI9TjR

Yes, my family were Gorale. As you’ve pointed out, they largely descend from migratory Vlachs who moved north into the Carpathian Mtns of Southern Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, and Ukraine. I was convinced this was the source of our PH1602 for many years since it is a Balkan haplogroup (also, there is a Vlach from the mountains of northern Greece who did the BigY and is PH1602). The only problem is that I have a close match with a family in Poland that likely goes back to the 900s, which predates the Vlach migrations to the Carpathians. We could still be Vlachs, but I’m open to the possibility of being related to Illyrians or closely related group who settled in the Carpathians prior to Vlach migration.
 
Yes, my family were Gorale. As you’ve pointed out, they largely descend from migratory Vlachs who moved north into the Carpathian Mtns of Southern Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, and Ukraine. I was convinced this was the source of our PH1602 for many years since it is a Balkan haplogroup (also, there is a Vlach from the mountains of northern Greece who did the BigY and is PH1602). The only problem is that I have a close match with a family in Poland that likely goes back to the 900s, which predates the Vlach migrations to the Carpathians. We could still be Vlachs, but I’m open to the possibility of being related to Illyrians or closely related group who settled in the Carpathians prior to Vlach migration.
Anyway, Vlachs are descendants of a fusion between Romans and native Balkanide people.
Closest natural living language to the Albanian, is the Balkanik romance.
 
The J2b in South Asia isn't from any kind of Greek or European conquest, they belong to J2b-Z2432 and not J2b-L283. L283 and Z2432 shared a common ancestor ~9,600 years ago. J2b-Z2432 has been present in the region since at least the Early Bronze Age and arrived from around Iran, this has been proven by aDNA.

Haplogroup frequencies can change significantly due to many reasons. The vast majority of Balkan haplogroups have TMRCAs of around 2,000-1,500ybp due to bottlenecks which were likely caused by the drastic changes which were happening in the region during this time frame. Albanian J2b-L283 clades were also affected by this for the most part, with most clades seemingly having expanded from the north of Albania.

Placing importance on frequency is illogical. aDNA, diversity and basal clade diversity are most important.

Thank you for your info. Anyway, J2b2 L283 is still present there, right? Probably it has an Balkanik origin.

We should not overestimate this "founding efect" theory. So far we have only two bronze age haplotypes found in Balkans, at the areas where probably lived proto Illyrians, J2b2 and R1b Z2103. Today we find out that these two haplo are two from the three main Albanian haplos. The other most Albanian frequent haplo is Ev13, whose parent haplo is found at the Neolithic area which was later known as Illyria. Are all these coincidences !? It's kinda strange...
 
Thank you for your info. Anyway, J2b2 L283 is still present there, right? Probably it has an Balkanik origin.

We should not overestimate this "founding efect" theory. So far we have only two bronze age haplotypes found in Balkans, at the areas where probably lived proto Illyrians, J2b2 and R1b Z2103. Today we find out that these two haplo are two from the three main Albanian haplos. The other most Albanian frequent haplo is Ev13, whose parent haplo is found at the Neolithic area which was later known as Illyria. Are all these coincidences !? It's kinda strange...

??

you have this in the balkans ( western side ) since the early bronze age

R1b1a1a2a2~Z2103.
G2a2a1 ...................the main ydna from period above
C1a2


I2a2 is more eastern balkans for same period as well as H2 and T1a
 
Yes, my family were Gorale. (...) I was convinced this was the source of our PH1602 (...) Vlach migration.

Very interesting story, really.
I come from Romania and my final subclade is PH3514 - according to YSEQ. This is a subclade of PH1602, as it can be seen here.
It appears to have spread from the Balkans and it's probably related to a kind of mix Illyrians - Thracians - Vlachs.
Science will surely come up soon with new data as more people will do the tests.
 
Very interesting story, really.
I come from Romania and my final subclade is PH3514 - according to YSEQ. This is a subclade of PH1602, as it can be seen here.
It appears to have spread from the Balkans and it's probably related to a kind of mix Illyrians - Thracians - Vlachs.
Science will surely come up soon with new data as more people will do the tests.
Agreed. Maybe you will join us on the YFull Tree sometime? Would be good to have a Romanian on there! I have a distant match from Ukraine who is now doing the BigY and eventually YFull analysis, so a Ukrainian should be on the tree soon. Also just added a Russian recently. PH502 I believe, downstream from PH1602.
 
Very interesting story, really.
I come from Romania and my final subclade is PH3514 - according to YSEQ. This is a subclade of PH1602, as it can be seen here.
It appears to have spread from the Balkans and it's probably related to a kind of mix Illyrians - Thracians - Vlachs.
Science will surely come up soon with new data as more people will do the tests.

Well.....there must have been others as this sample was a 7 years old boy....cannot breed

Y-SNP analysis of I4331, J2b2a-L283, Bronze Age Croatia – Mathieson et al. 2018


I4331 position under J2b2a-L283

New DNA paper from Mathieson et al. 2018, The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, gave us ancient DNA data from 225 individuals who lived in southeastern Europe and surroundings. Supplementary information from the paper states one of the sites analyzed was the Veliki Vanik burial mound, which is located near the town of Vrgorac in Split-Dalmatia County, in southern Croatia. Individual I4331,dated 1631-1521 calBCE (~3591 ybp), was 5-7 year old subadult male with Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a-L283. By analyzing the BAM file (raw data), I have assigned him more specifically: J-CTS3617,Y15058(xZ40053,Z38241)
For spreadsheet of checked SNPs, see here.
Observations


  • I4331 is likely fully developed J2b2a-CTS3617,Y15058, which according to YFull YTree v6.01, has a TMRCA of 4000 ybp, and lived only ca. 400 years after its diversification. Therefore, this is the clearest evidence that the expansion of this sub-branch very likely happened in the same region he lived in (western Balkans).
  • Currently members from J-M241 project in the J-CTS3617,Y15058 sub-branch mainly come from the Balkans, central and northwestern Europe.
  • Along with I4331, there was an adult female in the same burial mound. Their genomes possess considerable amount of Steppe admixture and have mtDNA that has been found in the Steppe area. Combined with the fact that to date we have no J2b2a-L283 from Neolithic Europe, as well as other data, a Bronze Age (Indo-European) expansion is likely.
 
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[QUOTE = Polska; 593445] Имам интересна теория относно това как моята линия PH1602 може да се е навила в Южна Полша. Те са от село, наречено Слопнице, което е в планините Бескид в Южна Полша, близо до Словакия. Току-що четох за Бескидските планини днес. Единственото, което се открои, беше, че предполагаемият произход на името Бескид е или илирийски, или тракийски. Бескид е същото нещо като bjeshkëна албански. Проследих моята линия назад най-малко до 900 година в Южна Полша, но не и след това. Много от пробите на YFull YTree за PH1602 са от Сърбия, България и Босна (заедно с Германия, Русия и САЩ). Затова мисля, че е имало потенциално древна миграция на илири или на близки хора в Южна Полша от Балканите. Интересно ми е дали има исторически сведения за подобна миграция отдавна?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskids

Също така открих тази връзка относно пуховската култура, която е била наблизо и е била повлияна от илирийската култура (преди около 2200 години):

https: //en.m.wikipedia .org / wiki / Púchov_culture [/ QUOTE]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi
 
Thank you for your info. Anyway, J2b2 L283 is still present there, right? Probably it has an Balkanik origin.

We should not overestimate this "founding efect" theory. So far we have only two bronze age haplotypes found in Balkans, at the areas where probably lived proto Illyrians, J2b2 and R1b Z2103. Today we find out that these two haplo are two from the three main Albanian haplos. The other most Albanian frequent haplo is Ev13, whose parent haplo is found at the Neolithic area which was later known as Illyria. Are all these coincidences !? It's kinda strange...
Well there are a couple L283+ samples from South Asia. There is a J2b-Y146401 sample from Kerala, India, on Yfull. It's clear his paternal ancestry is from the Balkans as there is an Albanian who is Y146400. Though L283 accounts for less than 1% of the J2b2 there as far as I know. ~99% (don't know the exact percentage) is Z2432.

There isn't a "founding effect theory", it is a fact that Balkan clades went through founder effects and bottlenecks. The vast majority of E-V13 present in Albanians is CTS1273+, the TMRCA and distribution of this clade suggests that it was involved with the expansion of IE speakers from Eastern Europe during the Bronze Age. And so, the E-V13 present in the Balkans today isn't from the Neolithic farmers of the region. The discovery of E-L618 in Dalmatia is only important because it tells us that V13 itself may have originated in the Balkans.
 
Well there are a couple L283+ samples from South Asia. There is a J2b-Y146401 sample from Kerala, India, on Yfull. It's clear his paternal ancestry is from the Balkans as there is an Albanian who is Y146400. Though L283 accounts for less than 1% of the J2b2 there as far as I know. ~99% (don't know the exact percentage) is Z2432.

Even the new J-Y146401 is actually with further origin from Syria, so J-L283 in India seems to be basically inexistent. However, I agree with you that this clade is most definitely of southern European origin considering the upstream Albanian sample and the diversity of the whole J-Z597 branch in the Balkans. J-Y146401 likely migrated to the Levant area during the Bronze Age collapse.

New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic.
 
Even the new J-Y146401 is actually with further origin from Syria, so J-L283 in India seems to be basically inexistent. However, I agree with you that this clade is most definitely of southern European origin considering the upstream Albanian sample and the diversity of the whole J-Z597 branch in the Balkans. J-Y146401 likely migrated to the Levant area during the Bronze Age collapse.

New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic.

Thank you for the update on our Croatian cousin, Trojet!
 
New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic.
Interesting how I4331 lived only 200 years after the TMRCA of his clade, this should mean that Z38240 did indeed originate around modern day Croatia. I wonder how Z38240* ended up in Northern Norway though, guess it has to do with the Romans or perhaps something earlier.
 
Always enjoyed reading your posts, as well as those from Trojet, Dibran, and Aspurg. Good source of information on L283 for me.

I can’t believe given the advancements in the phylogenetic tree, people still believe Alexander the Great spread J2b M241 to Iran or that J2b L283 originated in the Middle East. Takes 30 seconds to login to YFull and look at the YTree. It’s an overwhelmingly European haplogroup (L283) with only a few samples total outside of Europe.

I am always for rational conversation.
This clown is luckily banned, and we wont have to bother with his Alexander the Great M241 in India and similar stupidity anymore. Especially since he is throwing theories like selling vegetables on bazaar but then he is afraid to test himself.


Anyways, For me it was really puzzling that both Europeans and Indians share M241 SNP, i was always wondering did M241 originate in Caucasus and then spread to India with Indo-Europeans like Sanskrit speakers and Iranians or its actually some Zagros Native (same what i claim for J2-M205). As we know 99 % of people are pushing Caucasus theory but i think this theory is fish on a dry. Many people are saying that J2b has origin in Caucasus. But this does not hold water anymore.

Narasimhan et al ancient J2b-M241 samples are yet oldest M241 ancient samples found and they belong to Pre-IE cultures. Also as i understood the research, even tho i have to read it few more times because there is so much material and i really didn't pay much attention. But as i understood Indian M241 is more connected to the pre-IE populations as Dravidians in the south and not more recent IE arrivals like Sanskrit speakers.

Basically what this means is that closest brother of J2b2-L283, which is J2b2-Z2432 and btw much older brother since it has 3000 years higher TMRCA, is native for East Zagros, Iran, and India, and is of pre-IE origin.

On the west side of Zagros there is J-Z2453, its brother clade of European J-L283 and Indian J-Z2432 and it has higher TMRCA and diversity then Indian and European subclades together, formed 13800 ybp, TMRCA 13500 ybp.
Its exclusively Middle Eastern subclade of J2b2, and its more diverse then Indian and European J2b2 together even tho Indian is more diverse then European L283 younger one.

Also first brother clade of J2-M241 is J2-M205, with TMRCA around 6000 years and Middle Eastern Fertile Crescent expansion and probably same as M241 is of Late Paleolithic and Early Mesolithic origin from Zagros mountains.

Also some people are trying to connect J2b-M241 or J2b-M205 to Iranians which is funny to me. In Iran there was major study, only about 1 % of Iranians are J2b-M241, and most of these fall into Afro-Iranian ethnic group, meaning they are probably some separated clade that spread among Iranian black Africans.

Also J2-M205 is around 1 % in Iran, which is usual percentage for J2-M205, but the deal is that majority of these are Iranian Amenians and we know that we have one Armenian cluster into very exclusive Bronze Age Fertile Crescent Middle Eastern J2-M205.

I would also like to add that Caucasus and East Anatolia were heavily tested for ancient DNA, and few of J2 samples were all J2a-M410. The only J2b-M12* sample so brotherclade of M241 and M205 is found in center of Zagros mountains in first world farmers 10000 BCE. Probably of earlier Zagros hunter-gatherer origin.

So by all given facts by now, East Zagros and Indian J2-M241 is of pre-IE origin and is probably Zagros native. J2-M205 is of same hunter gatherer / first farmers Zagros origin but its MRCA expanded in Middle East Bronze Age. And J-Z2453 from Middle East found west of Zagros is of same origin.


By this J2-L283 is Zagros expansion to Caucasus, where he (TMRCA 5500 ybp) probably become some native north Caucasian population and then it was picked up by R1b tribes from oldest IE cultures and with them as IE expanded to Bronze Age Europe.

Migration from Zagros to Caucasus probably took place somewhere around 6000-8000 years ago giving that L283 TMRCA is 5500 ybp and his closest relatives are all around Zagros mountains and virtually none existent in Caucasus


If i made any mistake anywhere which is possible please anyone correct me, i typed this only for the sake of further debate.


Here is table with Narasimhan ancient DNA and many more of them - https://science.sciencemag.org/high...ghwire_adjunct_files/1/aat7487_Tables1-5.xlsx

Can we confirm that oldest J2b-M241 samples from this research belongs to pre-IE culture ?
 
Something like this:

Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.



RuzPVi4
RuzPVi4.jpg
 
Something like this:

Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.



RuzPVi4
RuzPVi4.jpg


Yes, I agree with your map. Of course I’m just parroting what others, who are better versed than me on this subject, have been saying for years. I think it’s worth noting that Maciamo Hay, who started this site, long ago postulated that J2b M205 came from the Zagros area and that J2b L283 spread to Europe via the Caucasus Mtns and the Steppe with the Indo European westward migrations. It’s all part of his article on J2 here on Eupedia. He was way ahead of just about everyone. It’s one of the reasons I like this site and this forum.
 

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