J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Galaxy Overlord]

Guys the oldest estimated sample is still the Mokrin sample at 1950 BCE mean

 

[mount123]

Thats georgia caucus area taken over from russia. We know that the indigenous people from that area are native caucausians, not russians.

Calling it russia when we obviously know russians didnt even inhabit that area in 01 AD is disingenuous.
Mistake we have 1000 BC armenia Kura axes decendant and 1950BC cetina Culture.

There is suplemental data on archeological sites and samples, you just have to read them. All of what you are writing with Kura Axes and what not is not based on scientific data.

I won't delve into any such discussions any more, in the future I will only check in this thread for actual informative posts from Trojet, Polska etc.

 

[Wanderer]

There is suplemental data on archeological sites and samples, you just have to read them. All of what your are writing with Kura Axes and what not is not based on scientific data.

I won't delve into any such discussions any more, in the future I will only check in this thread for actual informative posts from Trojet, Polska etc.

Its J-L283 present in a former kura axes territory isnt it? And we have J2b-L283 that is 1800BC in northern caucus. Showing a north to south migration

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

Its J-L283 present in a former kura axes territory isnt it? And we have J2b-L283 that is 1800BC in northern caucus. Showing a north to south migration

2 samples is not really enough to make that assumption. But that North to south migration could support Polska's Ukraine J-L283 origin theory. With one migration going from Ukraine to the Caucasus and another migration going from Ukraine to the Western Balkans. Thereby explaining the lack of samples in central Anatolia.

 

[Wanderer]

2 samples is not really enough to make that assumption. But that North to south migration could support Polska's Ukraine J-L283 origin theory. With one migration going from Ukraine to the Caucasus and another migration going from Ukraine to the Western Balkans. Thereby explaining the lack of samples in central Anatolia.

Theres not even 1 ancient ukrainian sample and most russian J-L283 are very young clades. But you act like 1 is some how less than 0

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

Theres not even 1 ancient ukrainian sample and most russian J-L283 are very young clades. But you act like 1 is some how less than 0

Your right, the theory is based on a lack of data/evidence and is essentially supported only by what I previously said and the fact that its roughly an equidistant location from the Mokrin sample and the Russian Caucasus sample. But I think it has more validity then the Anatolia theory because Anatolia is much more sampled then the Ukraine region but has still yielded no ancient J-l283

 

[Wanderer]

Your right, the theory is based on a lack of data/evidence and is essentially supported only by what I previously said and the fact that its roughly an equidistant location from the Mokrin sample and the Russian Caucasus sample.

Your right, the theory is based on a lack of data/evidence and is essentially supported only by what I previously said and the fact that its roughly an equidistant location from the Mokrin sample and the Russian Caucasus sample.

The ancient caucus sample ( not russian because they weren't russian)
Is actually in the caucus region though like the kura axes J-L283 located in former kura axes territory.
The one in latvia is 15xx CE and is a very young clade also

We need to look for ancient bulgarian territory remains. Because these people were not from slavic migration so they may have some J-L283.

 

[mount123]

There is suplemental data on archeological sites and samples, you just have to read them. All of what you are writing with Kura Axes and what not is not based on scientific data.

I won't delve into any such discussions any more, in the future I will only check in this thread for actual informative posts from Trojet, Polska etc.

Jesus Christ that sample still has nothing to do with Kura Axes or whatever. The oldest samples are from EBA Cetina culture in an upcoming paper we will be getting another 50+ J2b-L283 samples. The oldest Cetina tumuli vary from 2700-3000 BCE.

In Middle Copper Age before the IE migration there is something in store for J2b-L283 too, albeit not knowing specifics the only rumor that has been constantly circulating is that of J2b-L283 presence in said MCA Moldova.

Anatolia/Kura whatever did not, does not and won't yield any J2b-L283.

 

[Wanderer]

Jesus Christ that sample still has nothing to do with Kura Axes or whatever. The oldest samples are from EBA Cetina culture in an upcoming paper we will be getting another 50+ J2b-L283 samples. The oldest Cetina tumuli vary from 2700-3000 BCE.

In Middle Copper Age before the IE migration there is something in store for J2b-L283 too, albeit not knowing specifics the only rumor that has been constantly circulating is that of J2b-L283 presence in said MCA Moldova.

Anatolia/Kura whatever did not, does not and won't yield any J2b-L283.

Its in former kura axes land. It did a north to south migration. Its a very high indication it had kura axes ancestors.
There is 0 J2b-L283 in moldova that we know and if there was is it pre roman? And how old?
Somehow J2b-L283 did a mass migration through central and north east europe yet its absent there in ancient times?
Even when european samples are more tested then anatolian and caucusians?

When I see a moldova j-l283 sample ( a "rumor") then I will look it over.

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

Jesus Christ that sample still has nothing to do with Kura Axes or whatever. The oldest samples are from EBA Cetina culture in an upcoming paper we will be getting another 50+ J2b-L283 samples. The oldest Cetina tumuli vary from 2700-3000 BCE.

In Middle Copper Age before the IE migration there is something in store for J2b-L283 too, albeit not knowing specifics the only rumor that has been constantly circulating is that of J2b-L283 presence in said MCA Moldova.

Anatolia/Kura whatever did not, does not and won't yield any J2b-L283.

Are you saying that there are new Cetina culture samples in this paper that are 2700-3000BCE or are you saying the southern arc paper ones are this old? Because the current estimates of the Cetina culture samples just released are estimated 1800BCE mean

 

[Wanderer]

Jesus Christ that sample still has nothing to do with Kura Axes or whatever. The oldest samples are from EBA Cetina culture in an upcoming paper we will be getting another 50+ J2b-L283 samples. The oldest Cetina tumuli vary from 2700-3000 BCE.

In Middle Copper Age before the IE migration there is something in store for J2b-L283 too, albeit not knowing specifics the only rumor that has been constantly circulating is that of J2b-L283 presence in said MCA Moldova.

Anatolia/Kura whatever did not, does not and won't yield any J2b-L283.

Also we are getting 50 + cetina samples. We don't know if they will end up J2b-L283 because maybe J2b-L283 didnt enter cetina culture that early. We know it was there 1950 bc it may have arrived 2400 bc or 2200 bc or maybe it arrived very recent from the first sample at 2100bc. 2700- 3000BC is nearly a thousand years. For J2b-L283 to be so non existent in north and central europe before 1950bc and rare. But its said it was bottlenecked. How so if it was moving and expanding so much? Into central and northern europe where it doesn't exist?

 

[mount123]

Jesus Christ that sample still has nothing to do with Kura Axes or whatever. The oldest samples are from EBA Cetina culture in an upcoming paper we will be getting another 50+ J2b-L283 samples. The oldest Cetina tumuli vary from 2700-3000 BCE.

In Middle Copper Age before the IE migration there is something in store for J2b-L283 too, albeit not knowing specifics the only rumor that has been constantly circulating is that of J2b-L283 presence in said MCA Moldova.

Anatolia/Kura whatever did not, does not and won't yield any J2b-L283.

Correction here: the oldest most conservative newest estimate for some Cetina tumuli is 2800 to 2700 BCE.

 

[mount123]

Are you saying that there are new Cetina culture samples in this paper that are 2700-3000BCE or are you saying the southern arc paper ones are this old? Because the current estimates of the Cetina culture samples just released are estimated 1800BCE mean

There will be many new ancient J2b-L283 samples in an upcoming Balkan paper.

Also we are getting 50 + cetina samples. We don't know if they will end up J2b-L283 because maybe J2b-L283 didnt enter cetina culture that early. We know it was there 1950 bc it may have arrived 2400 bc or 2200 bc or maybe it arrived very recent from the first sample at 2100bc. 2700- 3000BC is nearly a thousand years. For J2b-L283 to be so non existent in north and central europe before 1950bc and rare. But its said it was bottlenecked. How so if it was moving and expanding so much? Into central and northern europe where it doesn't exist?

Central Europe has nothing to do with EBA Cetina (East Adriatic). Geography and stuff.

We are getting 50+ J2b-L283 samples which will be split between Bronze and Iron Age. In regards to MCA Moldova, by saying rumor one does not mean that it is published but that it will eventually in the future. As for the earliest dating of Cetina I corrected that in my earlier post above.

 

[Wanderer]

They should also find out results of these people or samples if possible.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.24396

Ancient croatian copper age massacre.

 

[Wanderer]

Cernavodă culture -> Coţofeni culture ->Vučedol culture -> cetina culture

Carnovoda Preceded by
Karanovo culture, Varna culture


[Qoute]
The Cernavodă culture, ca. 4000–3200 BC, was a late Copper Age archaeological culture. It was along the lower Eastern Bug River and Danube and along the coast of the Black Sea and somewhat inland, generally in present-day Romania and Bulgaria. It is named after the Romanian town of Cernavodă.


It is a successor to and occupies much the same area as the earlier Karanovo culture, for which a destruction horizon seems to be evident. It is part of the "Balkan-Danubian complex" that stretches up the entire length of the river and into northern Germany via the Elbe and the Baden culture; its northeastern portion is thought to be ancestral to the Usatovo culture.

It is characterized by defensive hilltop settlements. The pottery shares traits with that found further east, in the Sredny Stog culture on the south-west Eurasian steppe;[citation needed] burials similarly bear a resemblance to those further east.

Together with Sredny Stog culture, its spread from east resulted in development of the Anatolian language complex.[1][2]

[/quote]

During the evolution of the Coţofeni culture, there were clearly relationships with other neighbouring cultures. The influence between the Coţofeni and their neighbours the Baden, Kostolac,[12] Vučedol, Globular Amphora culture as well as the Ochre Burial populations was reciprocal. The areas bordering these cultures show cultural traits that have mixed aspects, for example Coţofeni-Baden[13][14] and Coţofeni-Kostolac finds. These finds of mixed aspects suggest a cohabitation between related populations.[15] It also supports the idea of well established trade between cultures.

 

[Wanderer]

Also Vinca Culture
Preceded by the Starčevo culture
Starčevo culture followed by ->
Karanovo culture, Vinča culture, Hamangia culture, Gumelnița–Karanovo culture, Kakanj culture, Linear Pottery culture



Also The Vinča culture (Serbo-Croatian pronunciation: [ʋîːntʃa]), also known as Turdaș culture or Turdaș–Vinča culture, was a Neolithic archaeological culture in Southeast Europe, in present-day Serbia, and smaller parts of Bulgaria, Kosovo,[a] North Macedonia, Greece, Bosnia and Romania (particularly Transylvania), dated to the period 5700–4500 BC or 5300–4700/4500 BC.[1][2][3] Named for its type site, Vinča-Belo Brdo, a large tell settlement discovered by Serbian archaeologist Miloje Vasić in 1908, it represents the material remains of a prehistoric society mainly distinguished by its settlement pattern and ritual behaviour

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Its not that crazy since kura axes culture was in the pontic and is an extension of the caucus peoples during that time.
As I said its way more under tested. We only know that it just pops up from no where meaning in the balkans as I said likely a ship route into the balkans. But the distance between the balkans through anataolia and the caucus is likely smaller ( if we go by landroutes) Than the route from caucus through Central europe and north eastern europe to the balkans.
Kura axes culture is very close to the balkans.
We have
J2b-L283 in Armenia at 1000BC. At 1000 BC
And kura axes culture encompassed that area.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...Kura-Araxes-cultural-tradition_fig1_283867750

The presence of J-L283 in former kura axes territory shows its present there but not in central or north eastern europe.
Kura axes is 4000BC - 2000 BC.

Also the oldest J2b-L283 sample is from Georgia at 1800 BC.

It can be native in Balkans. It is more economical to assume it is native.

There were probably hunter gatherers in parts of Balkans maybe similar to Anatolian HGs. It could have existed among them.

It formed 9700 years before but the TMRCA is 5500 ybp. J2b-L283 and J2b-Z2432 should have formed in the same region almost 10000 years ago. That may make some people believe it is from Caucasus but there is no real reason to place it in the Caucasus specifically. Imho both could have originated west of it (or east of it for that matter).

The TMRCA shows that it could have become extinct and it expands primarily in Europe with a center of dispersion most likely in Europe.

 

[mount123]

They should also find out results of these people or samples if possible.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.24396

Ancient croatian copper age massacre.

These are Neolithic survivors of the Pannonian/Central Eastern European plain, not East Adriatic. They are mostly YDNA G2a2a1 and H2.

It can be native in Balkans. It is more economical to assume it is native.

There were probably hunter gatherers in parts of Balkans maybe similar to Anatolian HGs. It could have existed among them.

The TMRCA shows that it could have become extinct and it expands primarily in Europe with a center of dispersion most likely in Europe.

It certainly is native to the Balkans since it is a pre-Slavic lineage as early as Proto-Illyrian EBA Cetina culture so no one is doubting that. But these people had lots of steppe DNA and the oldest Cetina tumuli are dated to 2800-2700 BCE it cannot be an incorporated Neolithic lineage since the time frame would not make such a scenario possible. The oldest J2b-L283 presence prior to its IE migration to the Balkans will be in MCA Moldova (and the surroundings) so we will eventually see once the relevant papers are published.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

These are Neolithic survivors of the Pannonian/Central Eastern European plain, not East Adriatic. They are mostly YDNA G2a2a1 and H2.


It certainly is native to the Balkans since it is a pre-Slavic lineage as early as Proto-Illyrian EBA Cetina culture so no one is doubting that. But these people had lots of steppe DNA and the oldest Cetina tumuli are dated to 2800-2700 BCE it cannot be an incorporated Neolithic lineage since the time frame would not make such a scenario possible. The oldest J2b-L283 presence prior to its IE migration to the Balkans will be in MCA Moldova (and the surroundings) so we will eventually see once the relevant papers are published.

Which timeframe? TMRCA is important for the living descendants, not the place of origin, if we are talking about the area where it formed.
Early samples do not prove it did not exist earlier elsewhere.

 

[Archetype0ne]

ALB_MBA & ALB_EBA can be modeled as Ukraine Yamnaya + Albania Chalcolithic. It seems Trojet and Polska where on to something.

Cetina can be modeled with the first model as well, but also with Albania EBA + Albania Chl, while Albania MBA cant be successfully modeled with Albania EBA + Albania Chl.


As was Jovialis:

Montenegro LBA can also be modeled with Catacomb/ it can also be modeled with Cetina or Ukr Yamnaya + Alb Chl

Legend: For a model to be viable se(standard error) has to be <0.05, although for practical reasons, and due to sample qualities it can vary a bit. While the p value for the model has to be >0.05. From what I understand for a model to be viable the p value has to be greater than the se.