J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Wanderer]

But do we really KNOW that the Sardinian was Z585? Could he belong to a branch further downstream? Did he have any Yamnaya ancestry? Or did he have an autosomal ancestry consistent with Phoenician ancestry?

Looking at YFull, every one of today’s members of Z585 is an Italian.

The sardinian was -z585. We can see it in y full tree. They are under italy as cagliari.
He was not yamnaya because nuraghics came in at which was your claim, 1800bc.
And like I said z585 is 3400bc which is over 1000 years apart from the initial nuraghe. And autosomal dna can change in as simple as 3-4 generations. If they were from nuraghic it means they invaded yamnaya peoples and mixed their genetics. Haplogroup positions is more important than autosomal if people are mixing.
-z585 means they dont have z585 mutation.
Also we know that phonecians often hired mercenaries. So its plausible they hired colchians.

 

[Wanderer]

Sidonia

This city was most likely ancient Asido, an Iberian settlement which may have been founded by the Phoenicians, hence the later name Sidonia reflecting its foundation by Sidon. Its earliest phase is known through its coinage and its 2nd and 1st centuries BC issues bear the Latin inscription Asido but also Punic inscriptions such as 'sdn or b'b'l, with Herakles and Dolphins being notable obverse and reverse designs.

 

[Ernekar]

@wanderer

Forget these lunatic theories about ancient greeks or phoenecians.
J2b-L283 expanded in the bronze age 3000-2000 BC, so loooong before greeks or phoenecians existed.
On top of that, the nuragic samples showed steppe ancestry, just like every single J2b-L283 we have found in ancient DNA so far.
We have even found L283 north of the caucasus in ancient DNA.
So it has basically been known beyond any doubt for a couple of years now that this lineage spread with indo-european expansions in SE Europe. Specifically Italic and Albanian branch.

I know you would like to claim phoenecian ancestry, but I am afraid to tell you that you won't find it by looking at your Y-haplogroup.
If you are that obsessed, play with some autosomal calculators until you get some phoenecian ancestry in there ffs.

And stop spamming this thread with your damn nonsense theories kids

 

[Wanderer]

@wanderer

Forget these lunatic theories. J2b-L283 expanded in the bronze age 3000-2000 BC, so loooong before greeks or phoenecians existed.
On top of that, the nuragic samples showed steppe ancestry, just like every single J2b-L283 we have found in ancient DNA so far. We have even found it north of the caucasus in ancient DNA. So it has been basically known beyond any doubt for a couple of years now that this lineage spread with indo-europeans.

I know you would like to claim phoenecian ancestry, but I am afraid to tell you that you won't find it by looking at your Y-haplogroup.
If you are that obsessed, play with some autosomal calculators until you get some phoenecian ancestry in there ffs.

And stop spamming this thread with your damn nonsense theories kids

No no no. +z585 expanded. As far as we know -z585 ineages were in georgia.
And than we find sardinian -z585 lineages much later on.
-z585 lineage was not european. It was still in western asia and the caucaus until about 1000bc or being generous 1800bc tops. Which is still relatively late compared To the expansion of +z585.
So it expanded into the medditerenean sea by some kind of invasion or migration because its in sardinia about 1200bc -700 bc
Also like I said, autosomal dna doesnt matter. You can have a nigerian with haplogroup I-L160 Doesnt mean I-L160 originated in Nigerian. You have to observe actual haplogroup placement and mutations.

 

[Ernekar]

No no no. +z585 expanded. As far as we know -z585 ineages were in georgia.
And than we find sardinian -z585 lineages much later on.
-z585 lineage was not european. It was still in western asia and the caucaus until about 1000bc or being generous 1800bc tops. Which is still relatively late compared To the expansion of +z585.
So it expanded into the medditerenean sea by some kind of invasion or migration because its in sardinia about 1200bc -700 bc

But J2b-L283 was already in the western Balkans 1600 BC, so there goes your Georgian theory.

 

[Wanderer]

But J2b-L283 was already in the western Balkans 1600 BC, so there goes your Georgian theory.

Only +z585 were in the balkans. -z585 were still in georgia and western asia

Ever cared to wonder what subclade it was? It falls under z585.
-z585 was in west asia and the Caucasus

 

[Wanderer]

Also I am one of the J z600 samples. I believe this because in my geneology search my ancestor decended possibly from a guy that was married in 1708 in dr ( moved to re union france and had my ancestor there maybe). The guy married in 1708, his father is from tarifa cadiz. But the next 2 fathers above him are from sidonia spain.
He has a son that has the same name as my ancestor but in french. So i believe its him and is born in a year that is reasonable range. The guy married in1708. Lets call him Bob. Bob moved to la re union france, married a french woman. In crnsus records they had some slave names also listed. And I think they were involved in slavery unfortunately. Theres a record of a slave with the same name as my ancestor, is the slave of of a owner of the same exact name. Both slave and owner had same name ( dominican record). The slave marries a different woman. thats how I know its not mine. Mine is also a free man in the record. And than mine has a kid 4-5 years later. But in DR theres not many people with the same surname as its a very rare surname in DR except in place in 1 or 2 places in DR. But around 1650 -1740 its almost non existant in records. Extremely rare. And a rare surname in latin america. My ancestor has no tracable marriage record in DR church records for santa maria de la encarnacion. But in that same church, his first childs record, they were already married.

 

[Ernekar]

Only +z585 were in the balkans. -z585 were still in georgia and western asia

No, even earlier clades than z585 were present in Italy.
On Y-full we have all the early clades of L283 in Sardinia.

And i have explained it many times before, the reason that we see ALL, as in every single one, of J2b-L283 subclades in Sardinia is due to their isolation and oversampling of that island.

In the bronze age there was an arch going from Sardinia, up to the Po valley, Istria and all the way down both sides of the adriatic, where J2b-L283 was present and were a part the spread of Italic and Illyric branches of Indo-European.

In most places, this arch has been subject to a lot of gene flow since the bronze age, so therefore we only see low percentages of J2b-L283 there today. But somehow Sardinia and Albania managed to stay isolated enough since the bronze age, and therefore they still have the most basal clades of J2b-L283 along with Albanian in mountainous areas having up to 30% J2b-L283 among them.

 

[Wanderer]

No, even earlier clades than z585 were present in Italy.
On Y-full we have all the early clades of L283 in Sardinia.

And i have explained it many times before, the reason that we see ALL, as in every single one, of J2b-L283 subclades in Sardinia is due to their isolation and oversampling of that island.

In the bronze age there was an arch going from Sardinia, up to the Po valley, Istria and all the way down both sides of the adriatic, where J2b-L283 was present and were a part the spread of Italic and Illyric branches of Indo-European.

In most places, this arch has been subject to a lot of gene flow since the bronze age, so therefore we only see low percentages of J2b-L283 there today. But somehow Sardinia and Albania managed to stay isolated enough since the bronze age, and therefore they still have the most basal clades of J2b-L283 along with Albanian in mountainous areas having up to 30% J2b-L283 among them.

Those clades earlier than z585 are considered -z585. The minus means its negative for z585. Z585 means its z585 and down that branch.
The ones above z585 are the western asian / caucasian decended samples.
+z585 left western asia into europe. -z585 stayed in west asia until late. Some migrated late under phonecians and carthagenians.
-z585 are completely different from europeans and the rest. Its obvious its not really european. It migrated very late after neolithic algriculture. Came into Europe in late bronze age 1000bc but was wiped off.

 

[Ernekar]

Those clades earlier than z585 are considered -z585. The minus means its negative for z585. Z585 means its z585 and down that branch.
The ones above z585 are the western asian / caucasian decended samples.

Nope, the ones above are J-YP157 and J-YP29. Both of them are found mostly/only in Sardinia.

 

[Wanderer]

Nope, the ones above are J-YP157 and J-YP29. Both of them are found mostly/only in Sardinia.

Yea thats the point. Those are negative z585...
They dont have z585 like 99.999999999 percent of the J-L283 that have z585 all over europe. The ancient samples are in georgia . Like rise408 for example

 

[Ernekar]

Yea thats the point. Those are negative z585...
They dont have z585 like 99.999999999 percent of the J-L283 that have z585 all over europe. The ancient samples are in georgia . Like rise408 for example

Nope again, ancient sample rise408 branched off from the Balkans branch. Just like armenian supposedly came from the balkans.

 

[Wanderer]

Nope again, ancient sample rise408 branched off from the Balkans branch. Just like armenian supposedly came from the balkans.

Nope, if they did they would be -z585 Jz600 in the balkans. There is no Jz600 with -z585 there. Rise408 was extracted in georgia.

There is only supposebly one french and belgium guy. But its literally one one person (doesn't have geneology) and is not related to me neither in y matching. While I have another match, my exact match with 2 generations distance, estimation is in the 14th century. his surname is portuguese. But I trace my lineage farther than he does. By 100 years. And with this new geneology potential match by 200 estimation or 180 years

 

[Fatherland]

Pripet marshes, was the best candidate for early Slavs

This.

And Albanians are direct descendants of the Illyrians. J2b2-L283, R1b-L23, E-V13 all found in the Ancient Western Balkan samples.

You should test yourself and see what haplo you got.

 

[Trojet]

The L283 sample(s) found in Sardinia were from the Nuragic era which saw the arrival of the Bonannaro culture in Sardinia. The Bonannaro culture was from northern Italy/Central Europe. So the L283 in Sardinia likely came from continental Europe.

@wanderer
Forget these lunatic theories about ancient greeks or phoenecians.
J2b-L283 expanded in the bronze age 3000-2000 BC, so loooong before greeks or phoenecians existed.
On top of that, the nuragic samples showed steppe ancestry, just like every single J2b-L283 we have found in ancient DNA so far.
We have even found L283 north of the caucasus in ancient DNA.
So it has basically been known beyond any doubt for a couple of years now that this lineage spread with indo-european expansions in SE Europe. Specifically Italic and Albanian branch.

I know you would like to claim phoenecian ancestry, but I am afraid to tell you that you won't find it by looking at your Y-haplogroup.
If you are that obsessed, play with some autosomal calculators until you get some phoenecian ancestry in there ffs.
And stop spamming this thread with your damn nonsense theories kids

Pretty much agree with the points made in the above posts.

He is the same guy who just a few months ago was claiming that J-L283 expanded from Sardinia. Now, he claims it arrived there 1000 BC and later with Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. Yet, we already have J-L283 from BA Sardinia (~1200 BC). He is the J-Z600* sample on YFull. It looks like now he is dreaming of some Phoenician ancestors and thinks will find it in J-L283. He doesn't seem to understand that in order for the Phoenicians and Carthagenians to spread it, they would have to have it in the first place. There is practically zero J-L283 in North Africa and the Levant. The only known J-L283 Levantine cluster is represented by YF08654. He is downstream of J-L283>Z597+, the same branch as BA Croatia which was found ~3600 ybp in Croatia, well before Phoenicians were even mentioned. Furthermore, the Levantine sample splits from an Albanian sample ca. 3000 ybp, and forms a founder effect which dates only ~2000 ybp.

 

[Wanderer]

Pretty much agree with the points made in the above posts.

He is the same guy who just a few months ago was claiming that J-L283 expanded from Sardinia. Now, he claims it arrived there in 800 BC or later with Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. Yet, we already have J-L283 from BA Sardinia (~1200 BC). He is the J-Z600* sample on YFull. It looks like now he is dreaming of some Phoenician ancestors and thinks will find it in J-L283. He doesn't seem to understand that in order for the Phoenicians and Carthagenians to spread it, they would have to have it in the first place. There is practically zero J-L283 in North Africa and the Levant. The only known J-L283 Levantine cluster is represented by YF08654. He is downstream of J-L283>Z597+, the same branch as BA Croatia which was found ~3600 ybp in Croatia, well before Phoenicians were even mentioned. Furthermore, the Levantine sample splits from an Albanian sample ca. 3000 ybp, and forms a founder effect which dates only ~2000 ybp.

1200 bc is very close to 1000 bc.
North african samples can be under represented. North africans/ caucaus/ middle eastern peoples arent testing dna themselves nearly as much as Europeans. also the carthagenians were exterminated as I have said before. This is including after the romans conquered carthage. As cato the elder used to say, carthage should be destroyed. When talking politics with carthage.

The modern levantine sample +z585 could have very easily been from a mercenary or migrant from the balkans. As its J -L283 with Z585. What this means is that its possible a Lebanon -z585 sample is still not discovered yet if there is a Istanbul -z585 sample discovered.

Also I have to ask where does it say those JL283 like JYp29 are 1200bc? Its still a close estimate to 1000bc

 

[Ernekar]

1200 bc is very close to 1000 bc.
North african samples can be under represented. North africans/ caucaus/ middle eastern peoples arent testing dna themselves nearly as much as Europeans. also the carthagenians were exterminated as I have said before. This is including after the romans conquered carthage. As cato the elder used to say, carthage should be destroyed. When talking politics with carthage.

The modern levantine sample +z585 could have very easily been from a mercenary or migrant from the balkans. As its J -L283 with Z585. What this means is that its possible a Lebanon -z585 sample is still not discovered yet if there is a Istanbul z585 sample discovered.

Also I have to ask where does it say those JL283 like JYp29 are 1200bc? Its still a close estimate to 1000bc

We have J2b-L283* in north caucasus bronze age. So most likely this haplogroup as a whole spread through the black sea towards the balkans at that time. Either a northern route through the steppe, or a southern route through Anatolia. Steppe ancestry in all ancient J2b-L283 so far seems to make the northern steppe route most plausible.

Instead of talking about what samples we "could have had" in a imaginary world, lets focus on the samples that actually do have, that is; all of them in IE-speaking areas and all of them with steppe ancestry. None in the levant, none in africa. Easy as that.

 

[Wanderer]

Look at Y full
J-YP29 is given TMRCA 2400 years Before present. Thats 400 BC

Their total range is 3800-1350ybp
So their total range is 1780 bc - 670 Ad

Thats a range of 2450 years
Half of 2450 is 1225

Also 1780 - 1225 = 555 which is 555bc
1780 ×.20 = 356
555bc +/ - 356 years

J-yp157 is not given estimate nor j-yp71 nor mine or the Istanbul sample

 

[Wanderer]

We have J2b-L283* in north caucasus bronze age. So most likely this haplogroup as a whole spread through the black sea towards the balkans at that time. Either a northern route through the steppe, or a southern route through Anatolia. Steppe ancestry in all ancient J2b-L283 so far seems to make the northern steppe route most plausible.

Instead of talking about what samples we "could have had" in a imaginary world, lets focus on the samples that actually do have, that is; all of them in IE-speaking areas and all of them with steppe ancestry. None in the levant, none in africa. Easy as that.

The black sea route is highly plausible for +z585. NOT -z585.
-Z585 had to go to sardinia which is not a black sea route. Its a medditerenean sea route, for J-YP29 sailed from anatolia or lebanon.

Supported by J-yp29 being TMRCA of 400 BC

 

[Ernekar]

The black sea route is highly plausible for +z585. NOT -z585.
-Z585 had to go to sardinia which is not a black sea route. Its a medditerenean sea route, for J-YP29 sailed from anatolia or lebanon.

Supported by J-yp29 being TMRCA of 400 BC

There is nothing support that it should have come from Lebanon.
Most probable routes for how YP29 reached Sardinia is:
1. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
2. Caucasus->Anatolia->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
3. Caucasus->Anatolia->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
4. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
5. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Passing Bosphorus by boat->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
6. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia

Neither ancient DNA nor modern distribution of subclades point towards the levant as having any relevance at all for this haplogroup.

The TMRCA of YP29 being 2400 years doesn't mean much in regards to when it came to sardinia, because we have dozens of L283 subclades in sardinia with TMRCA's of 4-5000 years. So unless Sardinia was some kind of magnet for all kinds of J-L283 subclades in prehistory, I don't see how the TMCR of YP29 is relevant for mapping out the initial migration routes of L283 as a whole.