J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Perhaps J2b-L283 represents a Bronze Age, CHG/Iran_N related incursion into Southeastern Europe, via the Kura-Araxes culture (Bronze Age Anatolia)? It would be very cool to see such a movement, make it all the way to the Carpathian Basin/Central Europe, and take part in the Hallstatt/La Tene expansions. It could also represent a Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic expansion of Anatolian groups heavy in CHG/Iran_N ancestry.
 
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Perhaps J2b-L283 represents a Bronze Age, CHG/Iran_N related incursion into Southeastern Europe, via the Kura-Araxes culture (Bronze Age Anatolia)? It would be very cool to see such a movement, make it all the way to the Carpathian Basin/Central Europe, and take part in the Hallstatt/La Tene expansions. It could also represent a Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic expansion of Anatolian groups heavy in CHG/Iran_N ancestry.


Its unknown how the surviving J-L283 made it to SEE, but the most likely path imho is Caucasus -> Yamnaya -> EBA Mokrin -> MBA Pannonian-Balkan Tumulus Culture groups -> Glasinac-Mati Illyrians and Eastern Hallstatt Pannonians -> Celts, Illyrians, Daco-Thracians.
 
His and your hypothesis are not mutually exclusive. Assuming Zargos/ North Caucasus origin, a vector through CHG over the Caspain shore is highly likely, as a means into Yamnaya introgression. But more samples and of older timeframe are needed from that region to confirm. And given the shore/water level might have changed, those samples might be unrecovable.
 
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38241/

We finally have our first Albanian underneath L283 PH1602. He is from Lipljan, but it looks like his family originates in Ferizaj. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferizaj

Also, there is an Albanian from northwestern Mat region who is positive for Z38241, but negative for PH1602. He is doing a WGS at the moment and should be up on the YFull YTree once WGS testing is complete.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mat_Municipality

That is neat.
Does this mean the Mat tester could be upstream, or rather would it split the clade?
 
That is neat.
Does this mean the Mat tester could be upstream, or rather would it split the clade?

I don’t think the Mat tester splits the clade, but I could be wrong on this. He is definitely positive for Z38241.

The PH1602 guy from Lipljan with roots in Ferizaj splits this clade underneath PH1602: https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y40852/. TMRCA around 800BC.
 
I've been gone for a couple months, have there been any breakthroughs or is it still the same speculations? :/
 
I've been gone for a couple months, have there been any breakthroughs or is it still the same speculations? :/

Same. And doubt anything will change, barring groundbreaking new discoveries.
We are waiting on quite a few new papers, that might clear stuff further. But only details might change. The larger picture seems to hold.
 
Weren't some papers from Albania going to arrive?
 
Weren't some papers from Albania going to arrive?


Wish I knew brother, It was " in a couple of weeks" few weeks ago.
At this point. Its all suffering.
 
The Daunian sample left Dalmatia for Foggia area in Italy circa 1000BC
sample ORD014 mtdna I5a2 ydnaJ2b2-L283 .........
you have an Italian flag !?

That is speculation. Daunians were mixed with locals and j2b l283 was found in etruscans too. Its not possible to assume that these are illyrian lines without getting adna from western balkans around 300-800bc
 
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What's the theory behind the ancient Cagliari Sardinian samples? How did they get there?
 
What's the theory behind the ancient Cagliari Sardinian samples? How did they get there?

Most are not ancient, but just people from the city of Cagliari. And it seems that Cagliari is just way more mixed than the rest of Sardinia, having received especially a lot of genetic inflow from Northern Italy, Genua/Liguria in particular. Some coastal areas were just more likely to receive new impulses, even on an island like Sardinia.
 
That is speculation. Daunians were mixed with locals and j2b l283 was found in etruscans too. Its not possible to assume that these are illyrian lines without getting adna from western balkans around 300-800bc


The paper states they did not mix with locals .............so from 1000BC to 440 BC they stayed isolated......they then began making their own pots and trading with the samnites next region ( Venosa )
Previous pottery from 1000BC, came from their homeland in Dalmatia .....which is why they found a lot of Dalmatian. Liburnian pots.
 
Most are not ancient, but just people from the city of Cagliari. And it seems that Cagliari is just way more mixed than the rest of Sardinia, having received especially a lot of genetic inflow from Northern Italy, Genua/Liguria in particular. Some coastal areas were just more likely to receive new impulses, even on an island like Sardinia.

Maybe he means Nuragics? Sardinia has had L283 presence since BA. No one knows how they got there with so little steppe though, that is indeed a mystery.
 
Maybe he means Nuragics? Sardinia has had L283 presence since BA. No one knows how they got there with so little steppe though, that is indeed a mystery.

Yes, I was talking about the Nuragics. They make up a decent amount of the old samples, but I haven't seen much explanation of how they got there in many of the primary J-L283 theories. Perhaps, they follow a similar principle to the higher rates of J-L283 in mountainous regions. The island similarly to mountains, served as a refuge from invaders.
 
That is speculation. Daunians were mixed with locals and j2b l283 was found in etruscans too. Its not possible to assume that these are illyrian lines without getting adna from western balkans around 300-800bc

Actually, we assumed wrongly J2b2-L283 was too present in Etruscans, but only 1 sample was among Etruscans, the other 2/3 were found in Basilicata, i am not sure if we should classify them as Etruscan or just Messapian influence, these were found along E-L618 (very likely E-V13 downstream), but then again i am not too sure but i think their age is classified as Early Middle Age. So a lot of scenarios possible.
 

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