J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Aspurg]

Well even today Sardinians have considerably less Steppe DNA than other Europeans. That contradicts the Steppe admixture of the J2b2-L283 and the female next to him. For your theory to be true one of these two scenarios has to have taken place:

1- Pre-bronze age and early bronze age J2b2 Sardinians had heavy Steppe admixture. Somehow this admixture disappeared in later.
2- J2b2 Sardinians migrated to the Balkans and got the Steppe admixture from there.

Now, since most Sardinian DNA is pre-BA option 1 is very, very unlikely.

No, you didn't get my point. If we speak of out of Sardinia scenario, all that it takes is that L283 with Sardinian genetics mix with Bell Beakers who arrive to Sardinia, they mix with BB's, go onto Italian mainland, and only subsequently to Balkans. Forget about Sardinian genetics, L283 mixes with Bell Beakers and after some time they are autosomally dominantly Bell Beakers. As BB's they bring their Steppe admixture to Balkans.

For ex. rafc has made a hypothesis about the culture from which V13 spread out, now you have a find in an identifiable archaeological culture, you should proceed from there about researching about it's whereabouts, instead of wildly speculating. Anyone who doesn't take into account archaeological evidence is disqualified as a serious interlocutor.

I have delivered my main point: identification of this find. The rest is up to you..

 

[LABERIA]

Mod on poreklo. Go read yourself. Can't post any links yet here. (10 posts rule) He mentioned archaeologically that there are traces of Bessi tribe in the Shop region, and that for example they had used circular kernos for storing burned remains etc., generally this evidence suggesting they did manage to keep their identity late in Antic period - that is resist Romanisation. Data is from one newer study.
I know Trojet does read that forum. Actually there is an Albanian there who I know is very knowledgeable about various Albanian clans. Some Bosniaks are there too.



I haven't read Schramm's book, only small parts of it. I know some of his main points. And I haven't read Malcom's response, what did he say?



I think he connected it with turbulent events of Byzantine-Bulgarian conflicts, some population movements.

But this is totally off-topic.

So, you don`t know nothing about this legitimate hypothesis. You have never read Schramm let alone Malcolm. How is it possible that you come here and want to talk about these things?

 

[Ownstyler]

No, you didn't get my point. If we speak of out of Sardinia scenario, all that it takes is that L283 with Sardinian genetics mix with Bell Beakers who arrive to Sardinia, they mix with BB's, go onto Italian mainland, and only subsequently to Balkans. Forget about Sardinian genetics, L283 mixes with Bell Beakers and after some time they are autosomally dominantly Bell Beakers. As BB's they bring their Steppe admixture to Balkans.

Do we know how much Steppe ancestry the Italian mainland had at this time?

And since you're claiming an expansion out of Sardinia and want to consider archaeology, which archaeologically verified cultural expansion are you associating this with?

 

[Trojet]

No, you didn't get my point. If we speak of out of Sardinia scenario, all that it takes is that L283 with Sardinian genetics mix with Bell Beakers who arrive to Sardinia, they mix with BB's, go onto Italian mainland, and only subsequently to Balkans. Forget about Sardinian genetics, L283 mixes with Bell Beakers and after some time they are autosomally dominantly Bell Beakers. As BB's they bring their Steppe admixture to Balkans.

I hope you realize that for your theory to work, many things have to break your way. That is: L283 makes a sudden expansion from Caucuses to Sardinia during Early Bronze Age by bypassing Balkans, somehow gets Indo-Europeanised in Sardinia, turns back east to mainland Italy, then on to the Balkans, all within a 2000 year period. But it couldn't itself have been involved in a westward Bronze Age I-E expansion?! Oh, and also the LBA Armenian L283 all of a sudden gets Indo-Europeanised as well.

Anyone who doesn't take into account archaeological evidence is disqualified as a serious interlocutor.I have delivered my main point: identification of this find. The rest is up to you..

Firstly, you disqualified yourself when you ignored or "forgot" the LBA Armenian. Ancient DNA is always crucial in understanding haplogroup origins/expansions. Secondly, as I pointed here, you also disqualified yourself from this thread when you couldn't even understand simple phylogeny, as I specifically told you the LBA Armenian was J-L283* meaning a fully developed one, as in sharing the ~6000 ybp TMRCA. I didn't want to get into specifics as far as the J-Z600 subclade goes since he doesn't exactly belong there (he splits it), because I figured all that may not be very easy for you to decipher

I know Trojet does read that forum.

Yes, I read that Serbian forum, specifically "Albanians and Arberesh" thread, whenever I need a good laugh

 

[Balkanite]

The theory about J2b2-L283 coming from Sardinia to be indo-europeanised by Bell-Beakers in Italy is unlikely.

The J2b2-L283 in sardinians can be explained by their contact with the Villanova culture of northerneastern Italy. They probably got their J2b2-L283 from the villanovans.

How did the villanovans get their J2b2-L283?
One of the main components which would later form the villanovan culture, came from the Urnfield culture of central europe. So a more likely scenario would be J2b2-L283 penetrating northerneastern Italy from the Urnfield culture at an early stage(bringing early clades). Those Urnfield J2b2-L283 would then be assimilated by the Nuragic-like peoples of northerneastern Italy, to form the non-indo-european Villanova culture(which is regarded early etruscan by practically all scholars).

While some of the Urnfield J2b2-L283 went to northern Italy and were assimilated into non-IE societies there, other J2b2-L283 just went to the balkans instead, and contributed to early balkan IE languages there.
When we look at the archaeological record, we actually also see the urnfield culture complex extend its arms down both to northern Italy, and to the northern balkans.

The problem with this culture is that they burn their dead bodies, and put them in jars. They dont bury them. So if this was a J2b2-L283-rich culture, we will probably not know until we invent some sci-fi stuff which makes us capable of DNA testing ashes. Testing the tumulus culture on the other hand is possible.

Also the urnfield culture followed the tumulus culture. Both of these cultures have been proposed to have contributed to the Illyrian ethnogenesis. So if we fint J2b2-L283 in bronze age croatia, and then also in the earlier tumulus culture, then we can almost be certain that the intermediate urnfielders also had J2b2-L283. That is because proto-illyrians and urnfield culture both had a huge tumulus culture element.

So judging by this, a more likely scenario would be that the tumulus culture donated a lot of the J2b2-L283 to the succeeding Urnfield culture in central europe, while some tumulus J2b2-L283 went straight to the balkans before the central european tumuli builders turned into urnfielders.
Then when a lot of Urnfield people later moved to northern italy, they would bring with them a lot of basal L283 clades they had gotten from the big number of immigrants from central europe. The J2b2-L283 did not do very well in northern Italy. They were assimilated quickly into the non-IE villanova culture, and judging from ancient dna and modern dna, they never multiplied their numbers very much. But they still have their diversity, due to their huge numbers before their assimilation in the bronze age.

The J2b2-L283 which went to the northern balkans with an earlier wave(tumuli builders), are another matter. They were a lot more successful in multiplying their numbers. And they stayed ie speaking. The growth of L283 in the northern balkans compared to the growth of L283 other places is almost like an explosion. One of these early explosions could also have diluted some of the earlier and more basal clades of J2b2-L283 in the balkans, leaving us with more diversity in the regions where J2b2'L283 didnt multiply as much (northern Italy, sardinia etc.).

Finally, of course it is hard to know exactly how the haplogroups moved around. Many material cultures moved around and overlapped a lot in what would later be illyrian lands, during those centuries.
And nearly all central and eastern european bronze age cultures have been proposed as ancestors to the illyrians by scholars through time.
So without sufficient ancient DNA, it is hard to know exactly which ones, and how many, of those cultures contributed the various haplogroups at which times to the northwestern balkans.
But right now it indeed seems that L283 came to northwestern balkans either from some people on the steppe or at least from some people more east/northeast.

 

[Leka]

Mod on poreklo. Go read yourself. Can't post any links yet here. (10 posts rule) He mentioned archaeologically that there are traces of Bessi tribe in the Shop region, and that for example they had used circular kernos for storing burned remains etc., generally this evidence suggesting they did manage to keep their identity late in Antic period - that is resist Romanisation. Data is from one newer study.
I know Trojet does read that forum. Actually there is an Albanian there who I know is very knowledgeable about various Albanian clans. Some Bosniaks are there too.

There are no Albanians at Poreklo, guy you speaking of is Serb pretending to be Albanian. Plus his ‘knowledge’ about our clans is entirely based on Serbian ethnographers (Urosevic, Bajraktarevic, Vukanovic, Jovicevic etc).

Guy was using one of our project members results along with his name and pretended they were his. Miserable mofo

 

[Dema]

There are no Albanians at Poreklo, guy you speaking of is Serb pretending to be Albanian. Plus his ‘knowledge’ about our clans is entirely based on Serbian ethnographers (Urosevic, Bajraktarevic, Vukanovic, Jovicevic etc).

Guy was using one of our project members results along with his name and pretended they were his. Miserable mofo

Creepy guy Rugovac, pretending to be Albanian... Cant believe he classified me on foleja

 

[Wanderer]

It looks that way. Most basal and early clades of J-L283 look sardinian.
Its likely a terrible event happened for J-L283 lineages that maybe caused them to migrate and seek refuge on to sardinia. Since its isolated in the medd sea. J-L283 lineages arent sporadic. They are very rare. But balkan J-L283 lineages are rather younger lineages. You dont see any older clads there. But its likely made way to northern italy and than back into the balkans. Basal J-L283 in people like british and russian are likely just rare offshoots that by chance migrated so far off. Could be for various reasons. Could be because they eventually got obsorbed by rome. And thats where they just ended up.

 

[Johane Derite]

It looks that way. Most basal and early clades of J-L283 look sardinian.
Its likely a terrible event happened for J-L283 lineages that maybe caused them to migrate and seek refuge on to sardinia. Since its isolated in the medd sea. J-L283 lineages arent sporadic. They are very rare. But balkan J-L283 lineages are rather younger lineages. You dont see any older clads there. But its likely made way to northern italy and than back into the balkans. Basal J-L283 in people like british and russian are likely just rare offshoots that by chance migrated so far off. Could be for various reasons. Could be because they eventually got obsorbed by rome. And thats where they just ended up.

Can you explain how the ancient armenian L283 sample fits in with this sardinian hypothesis

 

[Wanderer]

Can you explain how the ancient armenian L283 sample fits in with this sardinian hypothesis

I have a question. Are the sardinian samples from Francalacci et al (2013/2015, ancient samples or modern modern sardinians?

 

[Wanderer]

Can you explain how the ancient armenian L283 sample fits in with this sardinian hypothesis

Its basal J-L283.

 

[Trojet]

Its basal J-L283.

Exactly! And since this LBA Armenian aDNA was positive for 7 out of 7 called J-L283 equivalent SNPs, he also shared the ~5300 ybp TMRCA. Which means J-L283 was likely nowhere near Sardinia when it expanded, but much farther east. Otherwise, you'd have to explain to me how J-L283 made it to Sardinia prior to this timeframe, and then how a rare and basal J-L283 back-migrated from Sardinia to Armenia/Caucusus in the Bronze Age.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Or perhaps you can't read. This is what I wrote on the J2 page:

As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region.

The Albanian (and Kosovar) population is one of the most homogeneous in Europe in term of shared recent ancestry according to Ralph & Coop 2013. This means that the Albanians expanded from a very small population relatively recently, which explains why strong founder effects completely reshaped the Y-DNA frequencies. That is how E-V13 and J2b became to dominant among Albanians and Kosovars. That expansion probably took place during the Middle Ages, so based on the current data it is impossible to know whether E-V13 and J2b entered the Albanian gene pool during the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, the Classical Antiquity, or even the Middle Ages. Hence my reserve on the subject.

It doesn't matter Maciamo. Albanians are used to it. Not a problem anymore. It's getting normal

 

[Piro Ilir]

It obviously implies that Albanians descend from the Ancient populations carrying these haplotypes no matter how "recently" they descend. R1b-L23, EV13 & J2b2 with a minority of I1 is the overwhelming majority of the Gheg Albanian haplotypes, especially the ones from the Northern Highlands.

L-23(Z2103) being more precise. It is the overwhelmingly R1b subglade.

 

[Piro Ilir]

I dont understand how these posts are off topic? We are discussing if a lot of slavs are slavisized albanians?
Whether or not that is true has a huge impact on how we should interpret all that J2b2-L283 among non-albanian balkanites.
And how we interpret that has a huge impact on the arguments one can use to support the claim that J2b2-L283 is indeed Illyrian.
So as far as i see, nothing off topic here.

Definitely it's Illyrian. You know it , I know it , and certainly they know it as well...
Look at the maps of J2b2, Z2103 and the Ev13. All maps pinpoint to the same region north of Caspian sea. The most plausible region of the original homeland of proto-Illyrians.

(There is a,reason why I always say that Albanians should be pro American)

 

[Piro Ilir]

There is also another possibility i forgot.
That an balkanite-dominated legion of the roman army, stood guard there to prevent gauls from entering italy.
Some of them eventually settled and created several founder effects among the villages in the area.

A Roman legion is plausible. Anyway, the rise of Illyrian soldiery had begun much later than Gauls were a threat against Rome. Illyrians became part of Roman soldiery only at the second century ad and onward.

 

[Sile]

A Roman legion is plausible. Anyway, the rise of Illyrian soldiery had begun much later than Gauls were a threat against Rome. Illyrians became part of Roman soldiery only at the second century ad and onward.

do you have any link to this statement
.
After the Great Illyrian revolt ............Rome dispersed of 150000 illyrian to other places in the empire.
.
The Great Illyrian Revolt
Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9
Jason R Abdale
.
the war was only fought in Dalmatia and Pannonia

.
the alps where only conquered 15 years earlier by Augustus

 

[Wanderer]

Exactly! And since this LBA Armenian aDNA was positive for 7 out of 7 called J-L283 equivalent SNPs, he also shared the ~5300 ybp TMRCA. Which means J-L283 was likely nowhere near Sardinia when it expanded, but much farther east. Otherwise, you'd have to explain to me how J-L283 made it to Sardinia prior to this timeframe, and then how a rare and basal J-L283 back-migrated from Sardinia to Armenia/Caucusus in the Bronze Age.

The armenian J-L283 is not as basal as sardinian J-Yp29 clade in cagliari sardinia

Visit Yfull website
/tree/j-l283/

And most of the other surrounding closer clades are sardinians. The turkish is likely a greek derived one since the user last name is greek. The basal J-z585 is tuscan while its subclades in the J-yp113 clade are all sardinian as well.

At some point about 3300bc - 2700bc. One J2b2 ancestor became J-L283 and not much longer after many of his descendants were genocided and the survivors driven out its homeland in anatolia or somewhere else in west asia. Edit which is why the other J2b2 branches are overhwlemingly west asian. Theres no fair presence of a soley west asian variant of J-L283 in europe. I don't even think it may exists with exception of migration within the last 600 years ( exception of turkish derived ones because they kidnapped balkanites). European J-L283 Migrated by sea to sardinia most likely. But at some point a branch of J-z600 became Z585 which is where the majority of other european J-L283 come from weirdly. Since theres such a lack of other offshoots for other clades before J-z585. Except in sardinia, where theres a actually a few in just one area of an island. J-z585 may even have been present already in anatolia at the time of the migration but the ones left over were genocided. The rare armenian J-z600 likely migrated back at some point later. Because they are J -L283 in armenian ftdna project group, but none have been further tested. And its unlikely they are basal offshoots. Just like we have rare basal offshoot in england in J-Yp29 branch. Which we know is originally is sardinian at some point before though because of a sardinian J-yp29 sample from a study.
Also I dont see any J-L283 in the georgian Ftdna project which is telling us a hint but I cannot quite put my finger on it. May hint that armenians are not actually have always been from armenia but migrated there at a point after georgians. At least for J-L283 lineage of armenians

I believe there is basal J-L283 in corsica that isnt tested because sardinian nuraghe culture appears similar to torreanean culture of corsica and I believe they are actually maybe even the same people. And Sardinia and Corsica are very very close to each other. From northern sardinia to southern corsica. Even today it is not far off. And back than its possible the sea level was lower actually.


Id like to see J-L283 tested for the aegean islands more with it catagorized for each island. Because the basal turkish greek Ydna maybe from aegean around that time. Its ancestor came from sardinia maybe trying to go back at a point. Unless it was co incidence that it ended up there. We have a lebense J-L283 as well

The lebenese samples in the Ftdna project group are not west asian varients but european varients bought over at some point further later but I dont know why or have clues as to why. But Macadonia did invade all the way up to india.

 

[Wanderer]

List of prehistoric cultures of sardinia

Archaeological cultureYears before Chris
t
1. Cardium Pottery or Filiestru culture6000-4000

2.Bonu Ighinu culture4000−3400
3.San Ciriaco culture3400−3200
4.Ozieri culture3200−2700

5.Abealzu-Filigosa culture2700-2400
6.Monte Claro culture2400−2100
7.Bell Beaker culture2100−1800
8.Bonnanaro culture (A phase)

Culures 1 -4 are the most likely possibility of original J-L283 into sardinia.

 

[Trojet]

The armenian J-L283 is not as basal as sardinian J-Yp29 clade in cagliari sardinia
Visit Yfull website
/tree/j-l283/
And most of the other surrounding closer clades are sardinians. The turkish is likely a greek derived one since the user last name is greek. The basal J-z585 is tuscan while its subclades in the J-yp113 clade are all sardinian as well.
At some point about 3300bc - 2700bc. One J2b2 ancestor became J-L283 and not much longer after many of his descendants were genocided and the survivors driven out its homeland in anatolia or somewhere else in west asia. Edit which is why the other J2b2 branches are overhwlemingly west asian. Theres no fair presence of a soley west asian variant of J-L283 in europe. I don't even think it may exists with exception of migration within the last 600 years ( exception of turkish derived ones because they kidnapped balkanites). European J-L283 Migrated by sea to sardinia most likely. But at some point a branch of J-z600 became Z585 which is where the majority of other european J-L283 come from weirdly. Since theres such a lack of other offshoots for other clades before J-z585. Except in sardinia, where theres a actually a few in just one area of an island. J-z585 may even have been present already in anatolia at the time of the migration but the ones left over were genocided. The rare armenian J-z600 likely migrated back at some point later. Because they are J -L283 in armenian ftdna project group, but none have been further tested. And its unlikely they are basal offshoots. Just like we have rare basal offshoot in england in J-Yp29 branch. Which we know is originally is sardinian at some point before though because of a sardinian J-yp29 sample from a study.
Also I dont see any J-L283 in the georgian Ftdna project which is telling us a hint but I cannot quite put my finger on it. May hint that armenians are not actually have always been from armenia but migrated there at a point after georgians. At least for J-L283 lineage of armenians
I believe there is basal J-L283 in corsica that isnt tested because sardinian nuraghe culture appears similar to torreanean culture of corsica and I believe they are actually maybe even the same people. And Sardinia and Corsica are very very close to each other. From northern sardinia to southern corsica. Even today it is not far off. And back than its possible the sea level was lower actually.
Id like to see J-L283 tested for the aegean islands more with it catagorized for each island. Because the basal turkish greek Ydna maybe from aegean around that time. Its ancestor came from sardinia maybe trying to go back at a point. Unless it was co incidence that it ended up there. We have a lebense J-L283 as well
The lebenese samples in the Ftdna project group are not west asian varients but european varients bought over at some point further later but I dont know why or have clues as to why. But Macadonia did invade all the way up to india.

What do you mean "he wasn't basal". RISE408 LBA Armenia was never proven positive for any L283 downstreams. Again, as stated in my initial post, he was positive for 7 out of 7 called J-L283 equivalents, one of which is Z590, and negative for Z627. So he wasn't even in the J-Z600 subclade. That assumption was based on the Z590 SNP which we now know is at the same level as L283. If you want to see for yourself, go here and search for RISE408: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/

It seems you're having trouble understanding simple phylogeny and are suggesting that these modern Sardinian samples represent some ancient ones who have been proven to be there since ~5000 ybp. Ancient DNA trumps modern distribution. Furthermore, Sardinia is an isolated Mediterranean island which is also heavily overrepresented at YFull due to the 1200 Y sequences from the Francalacci study. And finally, there is many other "rare and basal" L283 besides Sardinia, including two confirmed L283+ and Z585- Balkan samples. But some will only look at the YFull tree, which obviously doesn't tell the whole picture.