J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Trojet said:
Nothing really surprising there. This sample is in the "South Asian" branch, so not under J2b-L283. Also, the currently oldest J2b-Z2432 sample comes from Bustan, Uzbekistan .
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Thanks for clarifying , I did not know of this BMAC Uzbek sample, that is very interesting, there is a basal J-M102 living guy on Yfull from Uzbekstan after all, the ties to the region are indeed quite relevant.
 
Maciamo

Simply put, the reason that the Balkans does not move forward is because of the Nationalistic myth building of Serbian and Greek nationalists. So long as they can deny what is more or less a fact, that Albanians lived in or about where they live today for thousands of years (and certainly before the Slavic expansion into the Balkans), they’ll use that denial to justify massacring Albanians in the name of cleansing Europe from the “Turkic-Islamic” menace (of course, they kill plenty of Catholic and Orthodox Albanians along the way, but oh well, casualties). Autosomal DNA shows that people from the Balkans are related, and that is because of Yugoslavs being an admixture of Slavic and indigenous people, as well as gene exchange between all populations in the area for about 1,500 years. Nonetheless, when you have all sorts of proof (linguistic, genetic, cultural remnants, etc.) that point to Albanians being a continuous population in the Balkans, this is why Balkanite says that the “benefit of the doubt” should no longer be given. The “doubt” does not “benefit” truth, it goes to benefit chauvinists in the Balkans who wish to continue the Dark Ages in the area as opposed to moving forward into modernity.
 
Anthsini said:
Maciamo
Simply put, the reason that the Balkans does not move forward is because of the Nationalistic myth building of Serbian and Greek nationalists. So long as they can deny what is more or less a fact, that Albanians lived in or about where they live today for thousands of years (and certainly before the Slavic expansion into the Balkans), they’ll use that denial to justify massacring Albanians in the name of cleansing Europe from the “Turkic-Islamic” menace (of course, they kill plenty of Catholic and Orthodox Albanians along the way, but oh well, casualties). Autosomal DNA shows that people from the Balkans are related, and that is because of Yugoslavs being an admixture of Slavic and indigenous people, as well as gene exchange between all populations in the area for about 1,500 years. Nonetheless, when you have all sorts of proof (linguistic, genetic, cultural remnants, etc.) that point to Albanians being a continuous population in the Balkans, this is why Balkanite says that the “benefit of the doubt” should no longer be given. The “doubt” does not “benefit” truth, it goes to benefit chauvinists in the Balkans who wish to continue the Dark Ages in the area as opposed to moving forward into modernity.
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Read the thread's title and post somewhere else. This thread is about J2b-L283.
 
Thought I'd post these here, some J2b2 maps from rrenjet

j2b2 frequency map.jpeg

j2b2 albania.jpg
 
 
enter_tain said:
Location of Albani tribe. Exactly where the biggest hotspot is.
main-qimg-a1d822bcd3c869d30dec291dc4a22e1a-lq
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Interesting map
in 733BC Corinthians Greeks captured Cofu ( Corcyra ) from the Liburnians who had it for over 200Years.

ten years later these corinthians created Apollonia and then Epidamnus ( modern Durres ) and another town south of Scodra.

They also created Butrint ...........is that on the map, it should be on the mainland opposite Corfu.

their fellow Greeks, the Spartans took tarentum ( Taranto ) at a similar time from an off branch of the samnites....I cannot recall the tribal name, but it was not the messapics
 
torzio said:
Interesting map
in 733BC Corinthians Greeks captured Cofu ( Corcyra ) from the Liburnians who had it for over 200Years.
ten years later these corinthians created Apollonia and then Epidamnus ( modern Durres ) and another town south of Scodra.
They also created Butrint ...........is that on the map, it should be on the mainland opposite Corfu.
their fellow Greeks, the Spartans took tarentum ( Taranto ) at a similar time from an off branch of the samnites....I cannot recall the tribal name, but it was not the messapics
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Yeah Buthrotum was the ancient name of Butrint. It's there :)
 
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Y-DNA of Greece and Turkey from 2017, not sure how accurate it is today.

greece_ydna.jpg

It's interesting that J2b is nearly as frequent as J2a in Thessaly, Central Greece/Attica, and Greek Macedonia.
 
Illyria said:
Y-DNA of Greece and Turkey from 2017, not sure how accurate it is today.
View attachment 13245
It's interesting that J2b is nearly as frequent as J2a in Thessaly, Central Greece/Attica, and Greek Macedonia.
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Im pretty sure some of it is j2b m205, j2b l283 is quite rare in greece today
 
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An important aDNA sample with regards to the thread.

From the new paper (in preprint) Population Genomics of Stone Age Eurasia we have:

NEO806, Grotta Delle Mura, Monopoli, Italy_BronzeAge: J2b2a1a1a1a1a1b


Which corresponds to: J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878


This should be a Iapygian (Paucetian?) sample, as it comes just south of Bari and the dating is listed as -1063 (BC). As we can see, he belongs to the J-Z638 branch which is the predominant J2b-L283 branch among the Albanians, and more specifically to the J-Y21878 subclade.


Interesting to note: In this paper, this is the only sample from the region and timeframe, and turned out to be a J2b-L283 ;) which as we know has already been confirmed among the Daunians as well (though no deeper classification available).
 
Trojet said:
An important aDNA sample with regards to the thread.
From the new paper (in preprint) Population Genomics of Stone Age Eurasia we have:
NEO806, Grotta Delle Mura, Monopoli, Italy_BronzeAge: J2b2a1a1a1a1a1b
Which corresponds to: J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
This should be a Iapygian (Paucetian?) sample, as it comes just south of Bari and the dating is listed as -1063 (BC). As we can see, he belongs to the J-Z638 branch which is the predominant J2b-L283 branch among the Albanians, and more specifically to the J-Y21878 subclade.
Interesting to note: In this paper, this is the only sample from the region and timeframe, and turned out to be a J2b-L283 ;) which as we know has already been confirmed among the Daunians as well (though no deeper classification available).
Click to expand...
Iapygians or Apulians (/aɪəˈpɪdʒiənz/; Greek: Ἰάπυγες, Ĭāpyges; Latin: Iāpyges, Iapygii, Umbrian Iabuscer) were an Indo-European speaking people, dwelling in an eponymous region of the southeastern Italian Peninsula named Iapygia (modern Apulia) between the beginning of the first millennium BC and the first century BC. They were divided into three tribal groups: the Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians.
The region was known to the Greeks of the 5th century BC as Iapygía (Ἰαπυγία), and its inhabitants as the Iápyges (Ἰάπυγες). It was probably the term used by the indigenous peoples to designate themselves.[1] The name Iapyges has also been compared to that of the Iapydes, an Illyrian tribe of northern Dalmatia.[2]
also known as the Iapodes
Iapodes
Indo-European people attested since the 9th/8th cents. BC, often erroneously classified as Illyrians, settled in Lika, the Karst plains of Gacko, Ličko, Krbavsko (western Croatia), on the Una near Bihać (western Bosnia) and Notranjska (Inner Carniolia/Slovenia). Administratively, they were part of the conventus Scardonitanus of the province of Illyricum, later Dalmatia. The Zrmanja and Velebit mountains separated them from the Liburni in the south

The Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes; Greek: Ἰάποδες) were an ancient people who dwelt north of and inland from the Liburnians, off the Adriatic coast and eastwards of the Istrian peninsula. They occupied the interior of the country between the Colapis (Kupa) and Oeneus (Una) rivers, and the Velebit mountain range (Mons Baebius) which separated them from the coastal Liburnians. Their territory covered the central inlands of modern Croatia and Una River Valley in today's Bosnia and Herzegovina. Archaeological documentation confirms their presence in these countries at least from 9th century BC, and they persisted in their area longer than a millennium. The ancient written documentation on inland Iapydes is scarcer than on the adjacent coastal peoples (Liburni, Delmatae, etc.)
 
The Iapydes are believed to have been an Illyrian subgroup or mixed nation of Celts and Pannonian Illyrians with a strong Venetic element. A major scholar of the Japodi was archaeologist Branka Raunig.


The Japodians bordered the Noricians and the Carians in the north and northeast. In the west, they bordered the Pannonians and the Dalmatians (or Dalmatia). The river Telavium (current Zermanja) marked the southern border of the Iapodian lands.

Some historians have said they had only one access to the sea ..........currently the port of Rijeka
 
Trojet said:
An important aDNA sample with regards to the thread.

From the new paper (in preprint) Population Genomics of Stone Age Eurasia we have:

NEO806, Grotta Delle Mura, Monopoli, Italy_BronzeAge: J2b2a1a1a1a1a1b


Which corresponds to: J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878


This should be a Iapygian (Paucetian?) sample, as it comes just south of Bari and the dating is listed as -1063 (BC). As we can see, he belongs to the J-Z638 branch which is the predominant J2b-L283 branch among the Albanians, and more specifically to the J-Y21878 subclade.


Interesting to note: In this paper, this is the only sample from the region and timeframe, and turned out to be a J2b-L283 ;) which as we know has already been confirmed among the Daunians as well (though no deeper classification available).
Click to expand...

’Tis a beautiful thing. Thanks for the update, Trojet. Especially great news for everyone under Z638.

Is there any clarification on the possible ancient L283 or J2b from NW Caucasus? That would really be something if that sample turns out to L283. Right around 5700 BC?
 
Trojet said:
An important aDNA sample with regards to the thread.

From the new paper (in preprint) Population Genomics of Stone Age Eurasia we have:

NEO806, Grotta Delle Mura, Monopoli, Italy_BronzeAge: J2b2a1a1a1a1a1b


Which corresponds to: J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878


This should be a Iapygian (Paucetian?) sample, as it comes just south of Bari and the dating is listed as -1063 (BC). As we can see, he belongs to the J-Z638 branch which is the predominant J2b-L283 branch among the Albanians, and more specifically to the J-Y21878 subclade.


Interesting to note: In this paper, this is the only sample from the region and timeframe, and turned out to be a J2b-L283 ;) which as we know has already been confirmed among the Daunians as well (though no deeper classification available).
Click to expand...

Hey that's my gramps!!
 
Polska said:
’Tis a beautiful thing. Thanks for the update, Trojet. Especially great news for everyone under Z638.

Is there any clarification on the possible ancient L283 or J2b from NW Caucasus? That would really be something if that sample turns out to L283. Right around 5700 BC?
Click to expand...

For now all we have about the sample is: NEO281, Kotias Klde, Georgia, 7773 BC: J2b

As we know, there is already a Mesolithic sample from this exact cave that was J2a-Y12379 and apparently carried the same mtDNA clade. So, either there is some mix up with the existing J2a sample or this is indeed a new sample that is J2b. At this point, I think we'll have to wait for the raw data and analyze it manually.

Adding to the suspicion, unlike for NEO806, the authors aren't providing any deeper classification for this alleged Mesolithic J2b sample.
 
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