J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

@Wanderer

Moldova is Northern Europe to you? Learn some basic geography. What about due to be published did you not understand?

You obviously never looked into the autosomal DNA of the ancient samples neither their phylogeny. But then again I also see you claim all sorts of pseudo scientific stuff on this and other threads such as Black Egyptians due to your mixed race and predominantly non European heritage. That is fine, however be prepared to be called out on that sort of pseudoscience when posting it on this thread.
 
i deleted it sorry
 
kingjohn said:
posted in anthrogenica (y)
interesting j2b from neolithic azerbaijan
Genome-wide data for 3 neolithic individuals from Mentesh-Tepe, Azerbaijan
The South Caucasus is at the outskirt of the Fertile Crescent, one the main centers of Neolithization. Despite this localization, Neolithic developed here only at the beginning of the 6 th millennium, and its origins remains unclear. Here we present genomic data for three new individuals from Mentesh Tepe in Azerbaijan dating back to the beginning of the Shomu-Shulaveri culture.
Mentesh Tepe Neolithic population is the product of a recent gene-flow between Anatolian farmer-related population, and Caucasus/Iranian population, demonstrating that population admixture was at the core of the development of agriculture in the South-Caucasus. During the Bronze Age, new gene flows between Pontic Steppe populations and Mentesh Tepe related groups contributed to the make-up of Kura-Araxes and modern Caucasian populations. Genetic analyzes of the Mentesh Tepe Shomu-Shulaveri inhabitants also provide evidence that the two juveniles buried embracing each other were brothers.
WGSExtract:
MT7 жен K1a12a1a
MT23 J2b2 U1a1d
MT26 J2b2b U1a1d

Location-of-Mentesh-Tepe-in-Azerbaijan-basemap-available-on-Internet.png

source:
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB54894
Click to expand...

Assuming WGS Extract is correct, which I have no reason to doubt, J2b2b corresponds to J-Z2453: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2453/

This thread is about J2b-L283 and those samples belong to a different J2b branch which split ~14000 ybp.

Worth noting: We still have no J-L283 in the Caucasus region prior to the Bronze Age. At this point, considering the above and the rumoured Eneolithic sample from Moldova, it's likelier J-L283 was in Europe when it expanded and not the Caucasus.
 
kingjohn said:
posted in anthrogenica (y)
Click to expand...
You can delete this post. This thread is about J2b-L283.

Turns out people don't read the title of a thread before they post.
 
mount123 said:
@Wanderer

Moldova is Northern Europe to you? Learn some basic geography. What about due to be published? Did you not understand?

You obviously never looked into the autosomal DNA of the ancient samples, neither their phylogeny. But then again, I also see you claim all sorts of pseudo scientific stuff on this and other threads such as Black Egyptians due to your mixed race and predominantly non European heritage That is fine. However, be prepared to be called out on that sort of pseudoscience when posting it on this thread.
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If you want to talk about egyptian you can do that in the thread about egyptians. Otherwise, I don't understand how this proves J-L283 existed in moldova in pre roman times or any place outside the balkans and southern europe. What I want is to see the study saying what you're claiming. I will wait for it to come out, and if it's shown in the study, then it may be true. But the study isn't out there. I don't see many samples in the steppe to show evidence saying it originated from the steppes. If it originated in the steppe of you should see a high diversity early J-L283 in the steppes from ancient samples.

If you look at the proximity of most pre romain Ancient J-L283, they are all near the adriatic and lower balkans. With only 1 pre romain in the steppe, which is younger than mok 15.
Mok 15 was already very admixed by then. It could be it was absorbed by Steppe. Or, as said before, it would have some substantial presence in the steppe. But we don't see that.

Ancient egypt has nothing to do with me being mixed race. I am 3/ 4 eruasian technically, and I plot further in other eurasian populations than even ancient egyptians. And yes, I have subsaharan ancestry. Yes, I have european Ancestry, I don't understand what this has to do with anything. They were just black to me. most look like black people to me in depictions of themselves. Im half West eruasian a 1/4 native and 1/4 ssa. And I am not claiming West africans come from egyptians. ancient egyptians look black, so they are black to me. Like how Anadaman islanders are, or negritos, I wouldnt call them whites or levantine looking or indian looking.
 
@Wanderer

Huh? You never really seem to grasp the essence of anything said. Maybe a language barrier? (maybe not :LOL:)

Reading comprehension, dear "Kura-Axes kidnapped Island kid" (as you have fallaciously claimed our Paleo-Balkan haplogroup to be, at least somewhere along those lines).

Also, thanks for proving that you have absolutely no clue about the geography of the aDNA samples found, neither their phylogeny nor autosomal DNA.

Jambo kwaheri!
 
@Mount, I have noticed two mistakes on J2b-L283 google maps, there might be more, I am only pointing what stood out to me. The Mycenean J2bs are wrongly placed deep into the center Peloponnese, I am assuming because there is a settlement called Mygdalia, but these samples are from Mygdalia hill, near Patras (northern Peloponnese), near the sea.

The Roman Serbian J2b from Krusvelje seems wrong too, it probably should be the settlement near Croatia, below the Danube, not in Vojvodina, which was outside of Roman rule. I am guessing the maps are in Hunter's account, you should let him know to make the corrections.
 
I had noticed that too, one of the authors of the paper has likely made a mistake with the geographical coordinates he provided as they don't coincide with the supplemental text on the archeological site:

"Coordinates: 45.912477, 19.174329

The Sviloš-Kruševlje necropolis Another Late Roman necropolis, excavated by the experts of the Museum of Vojvodina, is situated in the village of Sviloš, on a small hill of Kruševlje. The village can be found on the present-day road between the Fruška Gora mountain and the Danube River. This area had a good geographic position as the first zone of defense between the Limes and the plains of the Syrmia district, connecting the Danube with Sirmium and Bassianae in the Late Roman period."

That is Sviloš, Serbian/Croatian border region. There are two Kruševljes and the author of the paper has probably confused them.

Similar mistake happened with the Mygdalia location as the samples are from Petroto, Achaia.

 
PaleoRevenge said:
@Mount, I have noticed two mistakes on J2b-L283 google maps, there might be more, I am only pointing what stood out to me. The Mycenean J2bs are wrongly placed deep into the center Peloponnese, I am assuming because there is a settlement called Mygdalia, but these samples are from Mygdalia hill, near Patras (northern Peloponnese), near the sea.
The Roman Serbian J2b from Krusvelje seems wrong too, it probably should be the settlement near Croatia, below the Danube, not in Vojvodina, which was outside of Roman rule. I am guessing the maps are in Hunter's account, you should let him know to make the corrections.
Click to expand...
you are correct ....on the corinth gulf ...by the sea
 
mount123 said:
@Wanderer

Huh? You never really seem to grasp the essence of anything said. Maybe a language barrier? (maybe not [emoji38]2:)

Reading comprehension, dear "Kura-Axes kidnapped Island kid" (as you have fallaciously claimed our Paleo-Balkan haplogroup to be, at least somewhere along those lines).

Also, thanks for proving that you have absolutely no clue about the geography of the aDNA samples found, neither their phylogeny nor autosomal DNA.

Jambo kwaheri!
Click to expand...

You're grasping on to straws because that's not something im claiming right now. This is a straw man's argument.

Where is ancient J-L283 outside of the balkans / medditeranean/ and where in Moldova? Before romans?
There is no study out right now. If a study comes out, then we can look at it. But there's literally no J-L283 in moldova that I can look at right now, so why should I accept proof of its existence without proof of it existing there? Only 2 exist in the steppe. But they are bountiful in europe and way more diverse. It could just have been absorbed by steppe peoples. The oldest J-L283 is in europe, not the steppes. Steppe J-L283 is very lacking. Even in modern people.
 
torzio said:
you are correct ....on the corinth gulf ...by the sea
Click to expand...


where the Liburnian zone of influence ....with their dominating late-bronze and early-iron period fleet reigned .............along with their vassals and allies the Dalmatians and Japodes


 
@Trojet

In regards to the J2b-L283>Y21878 Yorkshire sample from the Anglo-Saxon paper. The nomenclature has not just been butchered in the supplemental tabel but also the supplemental info text made some very sketchy idiotic claims. The writer casually making up a fake haplogroup nomenclature "L228" on the spot and continuing with his unscientific rambling.

I mean look at this "supplemental info guide":

mount123 said:
From the supplementary "info guide":

"Interestingly, rather than in one of the more cosmopolitan trading centres like Groningen, Schleswig, or Copenhagen, we find J2-L228 in Anderten, where the haplogroup peaks due to the presence of a paternally–related kin group of four males. Within England, haplogroup J2-L228 was first observed in a Roman individual from York who originated from the Middle East, as suggested by genomic and isotopic evidence121."

First and foremost, it is J2b-L283 and the oldest aDNA samples are centered in the Western Balkans* (EBA-MBA-IA-onwards). The J2b-L283 samples from Anderten are autosomally what you would expect from that region of that time and their ancestors are not the result of some 2011 mysterious trade pocket theory but most likely of Roman legionaries with descent from the Western Balkans. The sample from York is not J2b-L283 but J-M205.

I am not exactly sure what that individual thought whilst typing that supposedly "info" text in. Bear in mind it is wrong and complete non sense and on top of that a total butchering of the nomenclature he/she desperately tried to make baseless theories about.
Click to expand...

This guy gets paid for this kind of "work". Thankfully there are papers out there with more knowledgable scientists as opposed to whatever one might want to call the guy who wrote this.

All I can say is that we can consider ourselves lucky to have independent researchers like you and Hunter.
 
The Aegean whatever paper is out.

Everything in a nutshell: No proper uniparental analysis, very poor methodology in 2023. Turns out every most recent common patrilineal ancestor expanded in the Paleolithic :dismayed:. No comment on the bizarre argumentation and conclusions based on macrohaplogroup designations (reminds me of obscure 2011 "papers").

PS: edited the quotes out as I don't think those bizarre statements deserve any attention.
 
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Nonetheless our family of interest has been radiocarbon dated:

• MYG001 (J2b-L283>>Z615) (Intramuros Child Grave3.A) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG001.A): 3265±21 BP, 1611-1457 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47527, AMS, IntCal20).

• MYG002 (Intramuros Child Grave3.B) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG002.A): 3318±21 BP, 1626-1518 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47528, AMS, IntCal20).

• MYG003 (Intramuros Child Grave3.C) is an infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG003.A): 3318±21 BP, 1596-1438 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47529, AMS, IntCal20).

• MYG005 (J2b-L283>>Z615) (Intramuros Child Grave3.E) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG005.A): 3198±23 BP, 1504-1425 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47531, AMS, IntCal20).

• MYG006 (J2b-L283>>Z615) (Intramuros Child Grave3.F) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG006.A): 3262±29 BP, 1612-1452 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47532, AMS, IntCal20).

• MYG008 (J2b-L283>>Z615) (Intramuros Child Grave3.H) is an infant one-three months old with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG008.A): 3262±29 BP, 1611-1452 cal BC -(95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47533, AMS, IntCal20).

About the site: "The excavation on Mygdalia hill (Papazoglou-Manioudaki and Paschalidis, 2017) provides a unique opportunity to investigate the life ways of a local Mycenaean society in the Patras region of Achaea, the settlement, the cemeteries, and the resources available (arable land, areas for herding, water supply). Mygdalia belongs to the group of Mycenaean settlements that were founded in the transitional period of Middle Helladic III/Late Helladic I (Mygdalia I) and rose to local prominence in the Early Mycenaean period (Mygdalia II). Substantial architectural remains, floor deposits and a tholos tomb furnished with pottery, that now finds parallels in settlement strata, will help define this important period in western Achaea. Its floruit came to an abrupt end at the beginning of the Palatial period, and continuation of full-scale habitation on the hill remains ambiguous (Mygdalia III) until its new floruit in the 12th century BC (Mygdalia IV). The mansion on top of Mygdalia hill (Terrace 1) and a large storeroom (Terrace 2) provide evidence for social organization in the Postpalatial period, the time of chamber tomb cemetery reuse and the warrior graves in Achaea. The primary domestic space at Mygdalia was found on Terrace 2 (Supplementary Figure 29). The area consists of densely built houses with rectangular rooms, semi open spaces and courtyards. Also found on Terrace 2 were four Mycenaean intramural children’s graves (Supplementary Figure 29), containing the remains of multiple infant and child inhumations interred in stone cists without grave goods, and two Archaic adult burials containing single primary inhumations (Papazoglou-Manioudaki et al., 2019) dating from the onset of the 7th century BC (Mygdalia V) when the area was transformed into an early Greek temple. Intramuros Child Grave 3 is a stone slab cist grave with cover stone that is located just outside of the settlement’s wall (Papazoglou-Manioudaki et al., 2019) (Supplementary Figure 30). "
 
mount123 said:
Nonetheless our family of interest has been radiocarbon dated:

• MYG001 (J2b-L283>>Z615) (Intramuros Child Grave3.A) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG001.A): 3265±21 BP, 1611-1457 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47527, AMS, IntCal20).

• MYG002 (Intramuros Child Grave3.B) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG002.A): 3318±21 BP, 1626-1518 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47528, AMS, IntCal20).

• MYG003 (Intramuros Child Grave3.C) is an infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG003.A): 3318±21 BP, 1596-1438 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47529, AMS, IntCal20).

• MYG005 (J2b-L283>>Z615) (Intramuros Child Grave3.E) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG005.A): 3198±23 BP, 1504-1425 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47531, AMS, IntCal20).

• MYG006 (J2b-L283>>Z615) (Intramuros Child Grave3.F) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG006.A): 3262±29 BP, 1612-1452 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47532, AMS, IntCal20).

• MYG008 (J2b-L283>>Z615) (Intramuros Child Grave3.H) is an infant one-three months old with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG008.A): 3262±29 BP, 1611-1452 cal BC -(95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47533, AMS, IntCal20).

About the site: "The excavation on Mygdalia hill (Papazoglou-Manioudaki and Paschalidis, 2017) provides a unique opportunity to investigate the life ways of a local Mycenaean society in the Patras region of Achaea, the settlement, the cemeteries, and the resources available (arable land, areas for herding, water supply). Mygdalia belongs to the group of Mycenaean settlements that were founded in the transitional period of Middle Helladic III/Late Helladic I (Mygdalia I) and rose to local prominence in the Early Mycenaean period (Mygdalia II). Substantial architectural remains, floor deposits and a tholos tomb furnished with pottery, that now finds parallels in settlement strata, will help define this important period in western Achaea. Its floruit came to an abrupt end at the beginning of the Palatial period, and continuation of full-scale habitation on the hill remains ambiguous (Mygdalia III) until its new floruit in the 12th century BC (Mygdalia IV). The mansion on top of Mygdalia hill (Terrace 1) and a large storeroom (Terrace 2) provide evidence for social organization in the Postpalatial period, the time of chamber tomb cemetery reuse and the warrior graves in Achaea. The primary domestic space at Mygdalia was found on Terrace 2 (Supplementary Figure 29). The area consists of densely built houses with rectangular rooms, semi open spaces and courtyards. Also found on Terrace 2 were four Mycenaean intramural children’s graves (Supplementary Figure 29), containing the remains of multiple infant and child inhumations interred in stone cists without grave goods, and two Archaic adult burials containing single primary inhumations (Papazoglou-Manioudaki et al., 2019) dating from the onset of the 7th century BC (Mygdalia V) when the area was transformed into an early Greek temple. Intramuros Child Grave 3 is a stone slab cist grave with cover stone that is located just outside of the settlement’s wall (Papazoglou-Manioudaki et al., 2019) (Supplementary Figure 30). "
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Stone slab cist graves are a feature of Cetina culture burials.
 
There are 67 modern Bosniak J2b-L283 samples from the Bosniak DNA project. Unfortunately there are many with not further tested subclades and those who have tested with commercial DNA companies instead of YSEQ, FTDNA etc.

The samples include the following subclades:

J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27522>Y23097>Y23094>Y86181>Y82533>Y82978>CTS8786
J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y166564

J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Y21045>PH4679>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751

J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z8421>Z631>Z1043>Y98609
With some further not defined subclades under generally L283, Z1043, PH1602 and others. There is also some samples denoted as simply M172 or M102 of which some might also be J2b-L283. The Bosniak J2b-L283>Z1043 samples from North Western Bosnia caught my attention on the border with Croatia and further inland J2b-L283>PH1602 samples from Central/Northern Bosnia. Some further testing might be helpful in advancing our haplogroup research.
 
I've been pandering on the J2b-L283 story in the past week and now my gut feeling seems confirmed. J2b-L283 is infidelity a steppe clade, but must have been a very minor one, an adoption. They were likely a subordinate clan under R-Z2103. They broke off in Slavonia and become their own boss, by branching south. My secondary pick for the split would be western Serbia.

None of Cetina or Bronze Age J2b profiles carry any Croatian neolithic. They simply cut through the non-IE people with no genetic exchange. In their expansion they collide with expanding Bell Beaker colonies and overcome them, this collision might have also occurred in Slavonia too which was a colliding zone of Beaker and Yamnaya.

The more interesting part is, it seems R-PF7563 was doing it's own thing similar to J2b-L283 but further south. And Matzinger turns out to be correct again, when he asserts that the name of Buna river enters Illyrian vocab through a Messapic language.

Here is some inside info:
How - but we'll also find more than a few R-PF7562+ samples in the Lalueza-Fox study in the BA Balkans to the north of Albania. translates only to BA Serbia in the minds of some people is mind-boggling.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...us-DNA-samples?p=666041&viewfull=1#post666041
Click to expand...

R-PF7563 is in EBA Montenegro. I have wondered why Illyrians have conflicting components in my Neolithic test:

pjkGT3I.png



Now it makes sense, original J2b-L283 carried neolithic/chalcolithic component from Serbia and Hungary. They acquire Beaker Italian neolithic and CA. And their expansion on R-PF7563 gives them Alb-MKD CA/neolithic.
 
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