J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[mount123]

Of course. Never stated otherwise. I was responding to the irony in his statement to over exxagerate the Illyrian Y-DNA presence in Croatians/Bosnians whilst simultaneously trying to downplay and deny Albanian connection to Illyrian despite the higher concentration and diversity of J2b-L283 in Albanians. He clearly has a hate for Albanians.

I am aware of that, just wanted to add it to your answer

You cannot argue with racist chauvinistic bigots as bigotry is a mental illness.

 

[torzio]

Pliny census




Salona = Solin, Split = North Dalmatian tribes

Narona = Neretva = South Dalmatian tribes

South Illyrians = must be Illyrian proper from Montenegro ..................30300 fighting males ( age 15 to 45 ) and 146700 for the 2 Dalmatian areas ( I did not include the Pannonians )

one can easily see the percentage of who is who in the total 197000 fighting men

 

[Archetype0ne]

The southern Illyrian tribes, aka Illyri propi dicti did not revolt. Hence why torzios image is irrelevant when assessing southern tribes.

vs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_Batonianum

Coincidentally L283 following 2 plagues, a revolt/genocide, a volcanic winter and the crumbling of an empire can no longer be found in meaningful amounts in Northern Illyrian territories. Meanwhile the territories in the south where the Illyrian tribes did not revolt, namely Albania, Kosove and Western Northern Macedonia still have considerable L283 %tages.
For one they did not revolt, for two they were less affected relatively speaking by the Slavic expansion, and Roman/Byzantine authority lasted longer.

Why did these Illyrians not revolt?
I think this picture might explain it.

 

[torzio]

The southern Illyrian tribes, aka Illyri propi dicti did not revolt.
Coincidentally L283 following 2 plagues, a revolt/genocide, a volcanic winter and the crumbling of an empire can no longer be found in meaninful ammounts in Northern Illyrian territories. Meanwhile the territories in the south where the Illyrian tribes did not revolt, namely Albania, Kosove and Western Northern Macedonia still have considerable L283 %tages.
For one they did not revolt, for two they were less affected relatively speaking by the Slavic expansion, and Roman/Byzantine authority lasted longer.

Why did these Illyrians not revolt?
I think this picture might explain it.

that's correct........they did not revolt

correct under the Roman province of Macedonia ............and a huge benefit to Durres due to the road to constantinople

The romans did not empty the area of Illyricum after the revolt (it did not become a desert) ..........they wanted taxes to come in.......they send people from other parts of the empire to fill some gaps and mix with the Illyrians ................the Romans did this everywhere they went .............cause trouble and we will mix the people up

But the origins of Illyrians is the eastern alps circa 1600 BC ...............older than the venetic arriving in Italy 1250BC as per oxford uni Elisa Perego long analysis

 

[enter_tain]

This paper was a huge win for the credibility of ancient Greek/Roman historians. Modern "historians" threw doubts on whether Illyrians were 1 group of people. They assumed Greeks/Romans were randomly clustering groups of barbarians under the term "Illyrian".

To see the geographical distribution of J2B2-L283 (north/south split), the timing, all match exactly what they stated was amazing. Take it from them when they stated the Albanoi were an Illyrian tribe in northern Albania. They know what they were doing, unlike some of these modern "historian".

 

[enter_tain]

John Wilkes

"most modern scholars, even though now possessed of a mass of archaeological andlinguistic evidence, can assert with confidence only that Illyrians were not an homogeneous ethnic entity, though even that is today challenged with vigour by historians and archaeologists working within the perspective of modern Albania. Notions once widely canvassed of a 'proto-Illyrian' people of Indo-European origin once widespread across Europe were always at best unproven and have now been generally discarded. In the twenties and thirties of the twentieth century, belief in the existence of a European sub-stratum of now vanished Illyrians was an attractive idea to those bent on emphasizing the pure Aryan origin of the nordic peoples of Europe. In the other direction there seems now to bc increasing scepticism towards theories of direct Illyrian involvement in the movement of new peoples into Greece at the end of the second millennium BC. Similarly, many have now discarded the simple identification of European Illyrians with the Urnfield Culture of Late Bronze Age Central Europe. This particular equation stemmed from the 'pan-Illyrian' theories propounded early this century by philologists who could discover traces of Illyrians scattered across the linguistic map of Europe."

Grifters always lose in the end.

 

[Fustan]

L283 is absolutely without a doubt an Illyrian lineage, the recent papers have proven it, but this was already known for a long time now.
Albanian L283 people descend obviously from Illyrians, what more is there to say here.

No it wasn't, ask your friend Riverman and practically all of the other Slavs. People legitimately thought it was Sardinian and not Illyrian just a few years ago.

As for if the Albanian language descends from the Illyrian language, this is a totally different problem.

Genetics and language are strongly connected. And in the case of Albanians it is much more difficult for us to learn how the ancestor language of Albanian was like, which also goes with Illyrian funnily enough, because both are undocumented. Just accept it dude. We don't have much to work with in this front, but it does not mean that there's no relationship between Albanians and Illyrians because of that. And we do certainly not have enough data on the linguistic front to make any sort of strong conclusions such as "Albanian isn't Illyrian or Dacian or Thracian, it's some other undocumented Balkan language" a la Matzinger.

Just last month a specialist of the Albanian language, Old Albanian language and ancient balkan languages, published a book saying the illyrian language died out and Albanian does not descend from it.
This view of his is not unique as countless linguists have argued this since the 20th century.

Specialist of Modern Albanian (maybe not even then) but surely not a specialist of Illyrian, it is almost a totally undocumented language. And I've followed through the thread, he does not seem like a very convincing scholar to me. Not that I would expect someone to be anyway since it cannot be in the realm of science and knowledge, as it is undocumented.

It is obvious thar I2a and R1a Albanians cannot be said to be descendants paternally of Illyrians. So not all Albanians descend from illyrians, this is a given.

I2a and R1a are super low among Ghegs and disgustingly low in Malsors. Every single ethnicity has a minority haplogroup, and we have those. Are we not Illyrians then? Are Russians not Slavs anymore because they have some Germanic Y-DNA? What an absolutely dumb comment to make.

Derite please stick to genetics and common sense in the future, stop watching Marvel superhero movies (which I assume yo do because of your obsession with Troy and trying to fit Albanians into it). I am also disappointed to realize you probably run the Albanian History twitter account, which is why you happily post about stuff that undermine any relation between Albanians and Illyrians to your fellow Albanians.

EDIT:All of these responses I have made even assume you're speaking the truth, because you've shown time and time again to twist your sources and straight up lie.

 

[mount123]

No it wasn't, ask your friend Riverman and practically all of the other Slavs. People legitimately thought it was Sardinian and not Illyrian just a few years ago.



Genetics and language are strongly connected. And in the case of Albanians it is much more difficult for us to learn how the ancestor language of Albanian was like, which also goes with Illyrian funnily enough, because both are undocumented. Just accept it dude. We don't have much to work with in this front, but it does not mean that there's no relationship between Albanians and Illyrians because of that. And we do certainly not have enough data on the linguistic front to make any sort of strong conclusions such as "Albanian isn't Illyrian or Dacian or Thracian, it's some other undocumented Balkan language" a la Matzinger.



Specialist of Modern Albanian (maybe not even then) but surely not a specialist of Illyrian, it is almost a totally undocumented language. And I've followed through the thread, he does not seem like a very convincing scholar to me. Not that I would expect someone to be anyway since it cannot be in the realm of science and knowledge, as it is undocumented.


I2a and R1a are super low among Ghegs and disgustingly low in Malsors. Every single ethnicity has a minority haplogroup, and we have those. Are we not Illyrians then? Are Russians not Slavs anymore because they have some Germanic Y-DNA? What an absolutely dumb comment to make.

Derite please stick to genetics and common sense in the future, stop watching Marvel superhero movies (which I assume yo do because of your obsession with Troy and trying to fit Albanians into it). I am also disappointed to realize you probably run the Albanian History twitter account, which is why you happily post about stuff that undermine any relation between Albanians and Illyrians to your fellow Albanians.

EDIT:All of these responses I have made even assume you're speaking the truth, because you've shown time and time again to twist your sources and straight up lie.

[FONT=&quot]It is also not clear where the E1b-V13 and R1b-2705 subclades present in the Albanian population come from.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If I remember correctly, there were these Thracian samples that are shifted very south and a mixture of autosomal north-shifted Illyrians with south-shifted west Thracians being predominantly carriers of E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 (Moesians, Thracian tribes around Macedonia and the Epirotes most probably being a Thracian-like population etc.), could result in today's Albanians after modelling.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]The fact is that we Kosovars, Malsor and Northern Albanians in particular and certain hotspots in Ilirida have a strong paternal Illyrian origin (J2b-L283), which has now been proven and is not up for debate.[/FONT]

 

[mount123]

Derite please stick to genetics and common sense in the future, stop watching Marvel superhero movies (which I assume yo do because of your obsession with Troy and trying to fit Albanians into it). I am also disappointed to realize you probably run the Albanian History twitter account, which is why you happily post about stuff that undermine any relation between Albanians and Illyrians to your fellow Albanians.

EDIT:All of these responses I have made even assume you're speaking the truth, because you've shown time and time again to twist your sources and straight up lie.

This user is obviously on the pseudo-scientific level and has no idea about genetics. On his Twitter page he claims that J2b-L283 are Sumerians. Don’t waste your time with him or any other mentally ill person.


I think the forthcoming paper about Thracian finds will bring a lot of light into the ''dark’’ regarding E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 and the modern autosomal DNA of Albanians.


But that is not what this thread is for.

 

[Fustan]

It is also not clear where the E1b-V13 and R1b-2705 subclades present in the Albanian population come from.

The most important Illyrian regions is completely untested. I'm sure when we get more samples from Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo, we will find plenty of Illyrian E-V13 and R1b-2705.
Even then we have E-V13 Balkan samples not necessarily labeled as Illyrian whose autosomal profile are almost identical to the Illyrian J2-L283 samples, like the E-V13 from Sopron in Hungary (region that has historically been said to be connected to the Illyrians). Also, most of the J2-L283 Illyrian haplogroups that have been found isn't even related to the Albanian one, except for the recent one in the southernmost part of Croatia that came out in the recent paper. I don't see why Northern and Southern Illyrians wouldn't have different frequencies of different haplogroups, I don't expect Greek Cretans to have the same haplogroups as Greek Epirotes, or Sicilian Italians and Venetian Italians.

 

[Fustan]

On his Twitter page he claims that J2b-L283 are Sumerians.

Lmao, does he really?

Don’t waste your time with him or any other mentally ill person.

Trust me I ignored his posts, vettors, and Riverman for ages now. I just read what people respond to them to get even more insights.

I think the forthcoming paper about Thracian finds will bring a lot of light into the ''dark’’ regarding E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 and the modern autosomal DNA of Albanians.

But that is not what this thread is for.

I didn't know there was a Thracian paper coming out, do we have an ETA on when it will be released?
And yeah, a lot of non J2-L283 discussion here. Sometimes I think it's fine though, since the frequencies of J2-L283, R1b and EV13 show that they're all connected in some way.

 

[Hawk]

What a pathetic lie and deceit attempt.

First and foremost Riverman has never ever written about J2b2-L283, in only one occasion he mentioned was that J2b2-L283 entered the Tumulus-grave network in MBA somewhere in Pannonia and benefited for it, he has never written about Sardinian theory something which Aspurg has done. If not, Riverman is one of the most knowledgeable persons in anthroforas as far as anthropology/archeology comes. He might be a bit biased on sole Daco-Thracian origin of E-V13 and all spread due to them, but then again he might very well be right, we don't know yet.

As for Derite, i seriously doubt he thinks or he promoted J2b2-L283 descends from Sumerians. That's horseshit attempt.

Not going to mention how E-V13 is an uniform and in stronger presence among Albos than J2b2-L283 in every single damn academic paper lol.

 

[Johane Derite]

What a pathetic lie and deceit attempt.

First and foremost Riverman has never ever written about J2b2-L283, in only one occasion he mentioned was that J2b2-L283 entered the Tumulus-grave network in MBA somewhere in Pannonia and benefited for it, he has never written about Sardinian theory something which Aspurg has done. If not, Riverman is one of the most knowledgeable persons in anthroforas as far as anthropology/archeology comes.

As for Derite, i seriously doubt he thinks or he promoted J2b2-L283 descends from Sumerians. That's horseshit attempt.

Obviously I don't. I made a post for the general public who doesn't know anything about haplogroups, etc, indo european migrations etc.

The point was to get them thinking about separate paths into Europe, etc.

I wrote:

"~7,000 years ago, the ancestors of the 3 main Albanian paternal groups had not yet met, they were in 3 different places.

E-V13's ancestor was living in the Cardium Culture


R1b's ancestor lived in Proto-Yamnaya


J2b-L283 lived in the territories of the Sumerian Civilization."

I was careful to say "lived in the territories" i.e. not necessarily were Sumerian.

I should have just written Iran or Zagros mountains or something.

Also this was 2 years ago. I don't think L283 were Sumerians, probably some sort of Zagros mountain people.

These people accusing me of "lying" are resorting to some absurd lies. I share every post and source with page number and everything, exactly so that everybody can find and locate to check it themselves. What can you do.

 

[Hawk]

Yeah, that's ambigious (open to more than one interpretation) but then again you mentioned the territory not the actual people, but he takes the one interpretation which can downplay you lol.

But, reading some of your posts, i was sure you didn't hold such an opinion.

In my personal opinion, in his 2018 paper Lippert mentioned core EBA/MBA continiuation(J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103 "he doesn't mention haplogroups rather just archeological perspective, this is my assumption") with some strong Danubian Urnfield(E-V13) influence on Illyrians during LBA to EIA, and i was leaning toward that option for E-V13, but now Lippert favors the Albanian and Yugoslav archaeologists on an EBA/MBA continuum. But then again this so called Pannonian influence according to Prendi reached more Albania, and more South-Central Albania, so if E-V13 ever was present this is the option. But we cannot know for sure, only aDNA can resolve it.

 

[mount123]

The most important Illyrian regions is completely untested. I'm sure when we get more samples from Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo, we will find plenty of Illyrian E-V13 and R1b-2705.
Even then we have E-V13 Balkan samples not necessarily labeled as Illyrian whose autosomal profile are almost identical to the Illyrian J2-L283 samples, like the E-V13 from Sopron in Hungary (region that has historically been said to be connected to the Illyrians). Also, most of the J2-L283 Illyrian haplogroups that have been found isn't even related to the Albanian one, except for the recent one in the southernmost part of Croatia that came out in the recent paper. I don't see why Northern and Southern Illyrians wouldn't have different frequencies of different haplogroups, I don't expect Greek Cretans to have the same haplogroups as Greek Epirotes, or Sicilian Italians and Venetian Italians.
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Whether North Illyrian or South Illyrian <Z638 , in the context of Illyrian diversification and expansion in the Western Balkans, these subgroups are related to one another, under the umbrella of Illyrian ethnogenesis.


The fact that everything downstream J2b-Z638 is Illyrian is not up for debate, so I don't know what you're getting at with your statement.


J2b-Z638 is a South Illyrian paternal line from which most of us descend (there are some of us who descend from the few surviving North Illyrian subgroups too!), but the South Dalmatian sample was not South shifted autosomally.


I wouldn't equate modern population groups and their autosomal differences with an ancient population like our Illyrian ancestors. The southern shifted autosomal DNA of Albanians compared to Illyrians is immense and cannot have come out of the blue.


The J2b-L283 samples clearly form their own cluster!


The pathway of J2b-L283 in comparison to E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 is very much different.



As for that "derite" person he did indeed make those pseudo-scientific claims: /AlbHistory/status/1243889093945294849 since I still cannot post links add "twitter dot com".

 

[mount123]

Lmao, does he really?


Trust me I ignored his posts, vettors, and Riverman for ages now. I just read what people respond to them to get even more insights.





I didn't know there was a Thracian paper coming out, do we have an ETA on when it will be released?
And yeah, a lot of non J2-L283 discussion here. Sometimes I think it's fine though, since the frequencies of J2-L283, R1b and EV13 show that they're all connected in some way.

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I don't know when their release date is due just that they will come.
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[FONT=&quot]Ignoring them is the best way to go but I have to admit that sometimes I just can’t help it [FONT=&quot][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Fustan]

Whether North Illyrian or South Illyrian <Z638 , in the context of Illyrian diversification and expansion in the Western Balkans, these subgroups are related to one another, under the umbrella of Illyrian ethnogenesis.


The fact that everything downstream J2b-Z638 is Illyrian is not up for debate, so I don't know what you're getting at with your statement.

Basically I wanted to articulate this point: among the Northern Illyrians it is J-Y15058 that is the most common clade by far, and this clade is not something most Albanians fall under. However, we have recently found the oldest J-Z638, and it's in fact the most Southern Balkan sample of all of the samples we have, and it's the one Albanians fall under. My speculation is that Z638 is the one that survived in the Southern Illyrians, and will be found much more frequently than Y15058 once we get more samples. Both clades overall fit under the Illyrian term without a doubt, but one will be found more in the North and the other in the South.

This is of course speculation on my part (on the distribution of the two clades) however they are 100% Illyrian both, that's not speculation.

I wouldn't equate modern population groups and their autosomal differences with an ancient population like our Illyrian ancestors.

I agree, I'm just using the modern populations of the world as an example of how Y-DNA frequencies differ from region to region, and I imagine it wouldn't have been much more different in the ancient times. Some Illyrian regions might have more J2-L283, some more E-V13, and so on. What I'm kind of touching at is that we do not really have much data on the mainland Illyrians or the southern ones. Most of the samples we have are from coastal Dalmatia. This is why people like Riverman are so obsessed with making E-V13 fit into his Daco-Thracian frankenstein speculation, despite most Illyrian regions being completely untested, and I'd argue in fact the most important regions are not tested at all, such as Mat-Glasinac.

As for that "derite"

person he did indeed make those pseudo-scientific claims: /AlbHistory/status/1243889093945294849 since I still cannot post links add "twitter dot com".

 

[mount123]

Basically I wanted to articulate this point: among the Northern Illyrians it is J-Y15058 that is the most common clade by far, and this clade is not something most Albanians fall under. However, we have recently found the oldest J-Z638, and it's in fact the most Southern Balkan sample of all of the samples we have, and it's the one Albanians fall under. My speculation is that Z638 is the one that survived in the Southern Illyrians, and will be found much more frequently than Y15058 once we get more samples. Both clades overall fit under the Illyrian term without a doubt, but one will be found more in the North and the other in the South.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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I agree, I'm just using the modern populations of the world as an example of how Y-DNA frequencies differ from region to region, and I imagine it wouldn't have been much more different in the ancient times. Some Illyrian regions might have more J2-L283, some more E-V13, and so on. What I'm kind of touching at is that we do not really have much data on the mainland Illyrians or the southern ones. Most of the samples we have are from coastal Dalmatia. This is why people like Riverman are so obsessed with making E-V13 fit into his Daco-Thracian frankenstein speculation, despite most Illyrian regions being completely untested, and I'd argue in fact the most important regions are not tested at all, such as Mat-Glasinac.

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E-V13 or R1b-Z2705 might be represented in some Illyrian groups after various mixings, but they do not form the core of Illyrian ethnogenesis.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Did you see that post? Maybe I got my golden blond hair and grey green eyes from the Sumerians [FONT=&quot][/FONT] Still waiting for that tan though… bregdet vacation can be quite painful.[/FONT]

 

[Johane Derite]

I wonder if some of the major J2b-L283 branches in Albanians today might have originally belonged to the Latinised Illyrian people that lived around the Lake of Shkoder, Mat, Drin Valley, Fan Valley, Black Drin, along the Lezhe-Ulpiane and into Central Albania up to the Via egnatia.

These people are accepted as having lived from the 6th to the 9th centuries and fading out, possibly having been assimilated linguistically by the expanding proto-Albanian speakers. It is possible that they slowly left their Latin language and adopted the dominant language of the Proto-Albanians in the same way that many Vlachs/Aromanians of Albania have abandoned their language for Albanian in the last 100 years.

Maybe some branches of E-V13 also, but there is no other Albanian haplogroup candidate that stands out to explain possible ancestry from this group.

It explains the northern Gegë concentration of L283 quite well, and explains why there are latin toponyms even in very remote high places and heavy L283 places like in Mirdita, northern Albania, etc.

Some of the most notable scholars that refer to these Latin speaking Illyrians are Noel Malcolm, John Wilkes, Stadtmuller, etc. Matzinger in his latest book also writes:

""For Illyrian itself, which, according to the findings given here, cannot be continued in modern Albanian, it can finally be established with regard to its linguistic history that, like other local languages ​​in the Balkans, apart from Greek and the precursor of Albanian, it was gradually abandoned.


After the territorial integration of the Illyrian area under the Roman rulership structure, the speakers of Illyrian probably switched to Latin after a certain phase of bilingualism, as can also be observed in other areas of the ancient world, where in the course of Roman rule the change to Latin followed

(see for example Italy, where the local Italian languages ​​but also Etruscan were abandoned with the expansion of Rome, or Gaul, where the Celtic variety gave way to Latin; see here e.g. Budinszky 1881 and Adams 2004 )."

Pg 167 Die Illyrer

 

[Johane Derite]

If we see the distribution of Komani-Kruja culture findings and Latin Toponyms and Illyrian toponyms, there is an uncanny match with the distribution of L283.