J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Taktikat, I think soon this matter will be resolved. Just have to wait for the Lazaridis papers. I think you are aware of some of the leaks by now, such as the R1b from EBA-MBA and the L283 from the MBA-LBA in North Albania. The autosomal signature should clarify this. But we have so many samples at this point a mere few kilometers away that in my eyes the topic is almost done and dusted.
Ps: Being an Albanian I2a1-Din is pretty cool since its on the rarer side. It means your ancestors incorporated into the ethnos where many others did not. So that is something to be proud of, don't let subconscious complexes make you doubt that. Likely your lines introgression happened early, meaning it predated very formative historical events for Albanians. Since from what I understand, post early Medieval period there was very little intermixing between the already formed Albanian ethnicity and South Slavic Y lineages, as you might have noticed from the countless similarity maps that go around. Kshu qe mos ta nin.
Youre right i am on the rarer side because dinaric north is rare everywhere in south europe including south slavs. However dinaric south is not rare amongst albanians - it is like the 4th/5th most common line

Anyway back on topic, unfortunately we will keep going in circles until we get at least 5-10 ancient dna samples from montenegro/albania/greece and maybe even macedonia to understand who belonged to what line in south europe
 
If what you say is true, that increases the possibility that the Proto-Illyrians were R-Z2103 and E-V13 and not the other way around.

The Illyrians reached deep South into Epirus, Aetolia, and Makedonia, so we better see some J2b2 in those areas. Unless you suggest a relay-race where J2b2 quickly Illyrianized E-V13 and R-Z2103 and sent them South as Illyrian ambassadors.

Then, anecdotally, these Southern Illyrians came to be called Illyrii proprie dicti while the original ones where not pure enough lol

I know how you meant it, but what you wrote is in fact close to the truth, because fairly pure J-L283 Illyrians encountered non-Illyrian people, of which some surely carried E-V13 (Thracian related) and R-Z2103 (Greco-Armenian related?), which they then assimilated in the South. At the same time, the Northern groups pushed onwards, which means they got mixed from Tumulus culture/Urnfield/Celts. That's really how it was and is the reason why the "most pure" and probably "most Illyrian" groups will be rather in between these two poles of the North and South. The Dalmatian coast too was subject to other influences. Its the central inland part which should be "most purely" Illyrian, especially if concerning patrilineages.
 
Stable population structure in Europe

R2040 Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia 245-402 calCE: J2b-L283>>>CTS190>CTS473 (CTS473?)
R3544 Gardun, Croatia 550-601 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z631>Z1043>>FT212328+(xY146109)
R3481 Doclea, Montenegro 211-320.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z631>Z1043
R9918 Doclea, Montenegro 996.5-1150.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>>CTS6190
R9669 Viminacium, Serbia 129.5-310.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364 (xBY37860)
R6693 Svilos/Krusevlje, Serbia 236-332 calCE: J2b-L283>Z600 (J-Z585<?<J-Z2507)

A corrected list of the so far J2b-L283 samples from the named paper in the title (added Sisak-Pogorelec sample and without the wrongly assigned Sirmium sample).

 
I know how you meant it, but what you wrote is in fact close to the truth, because fairly pure J-L283 Illyrians encountered non-Illyrian people, of which some surely carried E-V13 (Thracian related) and R-Z2103 (Greco-Armenian related?), which they then assimilated in the South. At the same time, the Northern groups pushed onwards, which means they got mixed from Tumulus culture/Urnfield/Celts. That's really how it was and is the reason why the "most pure" and probably "most Illyrian" groups will be rather in between these two poles of the North and South. The Dalmatian coast too was subject to other influences. Its the central inland part which should be "most purely" Illyrian, especially if concerning patrilineages.

It's honestly quite sad you still keep talking in terms of 1 Y-DNA = 1 culture. How many times must you be proven wrong?

The most hilarious shit was those Panonians being EV-13 and you kept crying about east and west Hungary.

"No but it's only in West Hungary"

"No it's not in northern Illyria"

"No it's not in south-western Dardania between May 365 BC to July 234 BC"
 
It's honestly quite sad you still keep talking in terms of 1 Y-DNA = 1 culture. How many times must you be proven wrong?

The most hilarious shit was those Panonians being EV-13 and you kept crying about east and west Hungary.

"No but it's only in West Hungary"

"No it's not in northern Illyria"

"No it's not in south-western Dardania between May 365 BC to July 234 BC"

Its a question of time, space and burial rite.
By the MBA the two blocks of J-L283 and E-V13 were very strictly separated, not just by some miles, but with whole modern countries in between. The main E-V13 cultures either practised cremation, as a near exclusive funerary right, or being not sampled yet - but cremation prevailed totally in the E-V13 dominated sphere from the EBA onwards.

That's why in some regions they suddenly pop up as the main local (non East Asian, non recent Northern European/Slavic) lineage, when inhumation becomes the main rite. The home region in the MBA for the main modern lineages of E-V13 is the area of Tisza-K?r?s-Danube (Suciu de Sus-Berkesz-Demecser into G?va-Belegis II-G?va), the core area for J-L283 is the Northern Adriatic-Dalmatian coast and Dinaric zone (Castellieri-Pususje).

Later Glasinac-Mati and Bosut-Basarabi being direct neighbours, with many incursions since the LBA in either direction. Obviously things get blurred by the developed Iron Age.

I'm also not saying that the respective groups were exclusively J-L283 or E-V13, but completely dominated by these haplogroups, because of recent founder effects from small tribes and clans, in both cases. That's why most of the main subclades have specific TMRCA.
 
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Sredni Stog might be the key here as Polska and Trojet have mentioned.
If L283 was incorporated around Ukraine-Romania as part of this culture, as opposed to North Caucasus/Steppe into IE, which might be the case given the classification of the not published Moldovan 6kbp J2b, I begin to wonder what gave rise to the Tumuli mode of burial as opposed to the previous Tripyllia -> Sredni Stog flat graves.
In a sense one can deduce a surplus of calories, and a more stratified, clan based society. But definitively an economic-cultural shift, as from what I have read the Yamnaya that arose later was a symbiosis of various cultural phenomena from the earlier cultures with some innovations such as the Tumuli.

1YdwDio.jpg

faYeKz9.jpg


From a post from RCO, on the other forum.

The Spread of Indo-European across Eurasia - Collège de France - Symposium - Genetic Admixture: Inference and Evolutionary Consequences
Nick Patterson
Harvard Medical School, Harvard Evolutionary Biology, USA
Human Genomics and Evolution / Genetic Admixture: Inference and Evolutionary Consequences
31 May 2022 12:00 pm 12:30 pm Symposium
Amphithéâtre Maurice Halbwachs - Marcelin Berthelot
Download the video


Session 4: Ancient DNA methods and archaic admixture (Chair: Etienne Patin)



At this point, this might be foreshadowing.
I just hope that J2b from Eneolithic Moldova sees the light of day, and if it does, is downstream L283 or basal, and has Yamnaya like autosomal. Then quite a hail mary from Trojet and Polska would be right on the mark.
 
1YdwDio.jpg

faYeKz9.jpg


From a post from RCO, on the other forum.

The Spread of Indo-European across Eurasia - Collège de France - Symposium - Genetic Admixture: Inference and Evolutionary Consequences
Nick Patterson
Harvard Medical School, Harvard Evolutionary Biology, USA
Human Genomics and Evolution / Genetic Admixture: Inference and Evolutionary Consequences
31 May 2022 12:00 pm 12:30 pm Symposium
Amphithéâtre Maurice Halbwachs - Marcelin Berthelot
Download the video


Session 4: Ancient DNA methods and archaic admixture (Chair: Etienne Patin)



At this point, this might be foreshadowing.
I just hope that J2b from Eneolithic Moldova sees the light of day, and if it does, is downstream L283 or basal, and has Yamnaya like autosomal. Then quite a hail mary from Trojet and Polska would be right on the mark.

Why are people obsessed with yamnaya?
 
Why are people obsessed with yamnaya?

Because so far, the consensus is that it was a key crossroads as a culture for what later would lead to a family of cultures from Ireland to India?
 
R2040 Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia 245-402 calCE: J2b-L283>>>CTS190>CTS473 (CTS473?)
R3544 Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia 550-601 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z631>Z1043>>FT212328+(xY146109)
R3481 Doclea, Montenegro 211-320.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z631>Z1043
R9918 Doclea, Montenegro 996.5-1150.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>>CTS6190
R9669 Viminacium, Serbia 129.5-310.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364 (xBY37860)
R6693 Svilos/Krusevlje, Serbia 236-332 calCE: J2b-L283>Z600 (J-Z585<?<J-Z2507)

A corrected list of the so far J2b-L283 samples from the named paper in the title (added Sisak-Pogorelec sample and without the wrongly assigned Sirmium sample).

R3543 Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia 431-600.5 calCE: J2b-L283>>Z38240>Z38241>FT103684>FTA60432>FTA61140 (<->Y268072)

As usual, thanks for the update Trojet.
 
Because so far, the consensus is that it was a key crossroads as a culture for what later would lead to a family of cultures from Ireland to India?
How? I would better think they crossed the black sea by ship.

Theres no ancient J-L283 samples found on land between the balkans and the caucus.
And theres no ancient J-L283 found north either before western roman collapse
 
How? I would better think they crossed the black sea by ship.

Theres no ancient J-L283 samples found on land between the balkans and the caucus.
And theres no ancient J-L283 found north either before western roman collapse

Not sure why you keep making factual sounding claims without checking the facts though.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...X&ll=45.662051530736825,32.33264070460359&z=5

Not that many samples, but the region is undersampled to begin with. Supposedly we will get more sample soon though from the Caucasus. Also there is a rumored 6kyo J2b in Moldova, some have speculated it might be part of Sredni Stog. And lately the forefront anthrogeneticists have connected Sredni + Trypillia to the precursors of Yamnaya.

Also oldest sample of L283 found so far in Europe had high steppe, and was found in a Steppe Related complex in Maros, along with other Steppe Y such as z2103.

Also if you saw the North African ancient L283s and their autosomal you would very well know these people had steppe.
Now the only thing that might have mislead people 5 years ago was the Nuragics autosomal, but being ignorant of ones own haplo when its one of the better sampled ancient haplos as of today, is not a good figure.

Also the initial question you asked was why people are so obsessed with Yamnaya to which I answered, then you retort with something completely unrelated to that answer.
 
Not sure why you keep making factual sounding claims without checking the facts though.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...X&ll=45.662051530736825,32.33264070460359&z=5

I honestly don't see how the non sense Wanderer writes is more far away from the actual data than theories you are "psychologically rooting for" ;)

I more specifically don't get why certain people generally have to derail every thread that has to do with Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283, seems to be close to becoming a national sport or something. E. g. "those are not Illyrian samples there must be correlative continuity for all of us" "those are from the fringes of Illyria"...

These folks are constantly whining about the data that is right in our face, it is just that they don't want to see it.
 
How? I would better think they crossed the black sea by ship.

Theres no ancient J-L283 samples found on land between the balkans and the caucus.
And theres no ancient J-L283 found north either before western roman collapse

J-L283 was clearly a minority lineage, even if it was, like it seems, on the steppe. Remember how long we waited for R-L51 samples from the steppe, even though its so important for later steppe derived groups? Minority lineages are hard to trace back, especially is sampling the wrong cultural formations. That doesn't mean a less parsimonious explanation like "they came per ship" is better. We have them in Maros and I expect them to potentially lurk around either already in the Lower Don cultures or after later contacts with Maikop on the steppe. After all, the CHG contribution needs to have had some patrilinear impact as well.
 
Not sure why you keep making factual sounding claims without checking the facts though.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...X&ll=45.662051530736825,32.33264070460359&z=5

Not that many samples, but the region is undersampled to begin with. Supposedly we will get more sample soon though from the Caucasus. Also there is a rumored 6kyo J2b in Moldova, some have speculated it might be part of Sredni Stog. And lately the forefront anthrogeneticists have connected Sredni + Trypillia to the precursors of Yamnaya.

Also oldest sample of L283 found so far in Europe had high steppe, and was found in a Steppe Related complex in Maros, along with other Steppe Y such as z2103.

Also if you saw the North African ancient L283s and their autosomal you would very well know these people had steppe.
Now the only thing that might have mislead people 5 years ago was the Nuragics autosomal, but being ignorant of ones own haplo when its one of the better sampled ancient haplos as of today, is not a good figure.

Also the initial question you asked was why people are so obsessed with Yamnaya to which I answered, then you retort with something completely unrelated to that answer.


Fact is there is no Ancient J-L283 between the balkans and the caucus.

How would I check with a calculator their autosomal results for steppe ancestry?
And what would be the kit number?

Having "steppe ancestry" probably doesn't necessarily mean it was a yanmaya individual.
They maybe had similar genetics that cluster close to each other. But arent necessarily yanmaya

The better question would be if you found dna they both shared. Like Centimorgans.

What are the yanamaya haplogroups and kits to look at their autosomal dna results?
Yanmaya studies?

Does ancient sardinian J-L283 have steppe ancestry admixture results?

The ancient north african J-L283 is also way past yanmaya. Most europeans were admixed with yanmaya post yanmaya invasion. Even if their Y dna lineage didnt come from yanmaya
 
I honestly don't see how the non sense Wanderer writes is more far away from the actual data than theories you are "psychologically rooting for" ;)

I more specifically don't get why certain people generally have to derail every thread that has to do with Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283, seems to be close to becoming a national sport or something. E. g. "those are not Illyrian samples there must be correlative continuity for all of us" "those are from the fringes of Illyria"...

These folks are constantly whining about the data that is right in our face, it is just that they don't want to see it.

I find it astounding having internet enthusiasts like Bruzmi basically doing just that and further belittling the obvious data when it comes to the Proto-Illyrian parental line and having certain people hyping him up like some high school cheerleader girl.
 
Illyrian type of helmet found near Danube, modern Serbia

292132553_3144844499160621_6877804428406568622_n.jpg


34984200_1971522956492787_4938306414293549056_n.jpg
 
Swastika-shaped pendants, gold, Iron age period, 6th-5th century BC, found in so called Illyrian "princely grave in Novi Pazar, south-western Serbia.
Collection of National Museum of Serbia in Belgrade.
In princely grave in Novi Pazar was buried one person, most likely female, a member of local tribal aristocracy. She was buried along with rich grave offerings, consisting of numerous luxurious items locally produced and imported from distant areas, such as ancient Greece, southern Italy and eastern Mediterranean.
Princely graves are typical burials of Iron age Balkan cultures, buried under massive artificial mounds made of ground and stones. In those graves were buried members of local tribal aristocracy, who were accompanied to the afterlife by rich grave goods. Items laid in their graves reflect their wealth, gathered by trade and cultural connections with ancient world along the Mediterranean.
***This picture depicts an archaeological artifact. It is posted only for educational purposes, promoting historical and cultural heritage. Not related to or promoting any political or ideological option***

284477585_3119855148326223_1443283329468570157_n.jpg


“Mramorac” type gold belt decorated with swastika motifs and geometrical ornaments, Iron age period, 6th-5th century BC, found in so called Illyrian "princely grave in Novi Pazar, south-western Serbia.
Collection of National Museum of Serbia in Belgrade.
Mramorac type belts, named after first such artifacts found in Mramorac village, are mostly found in the basin of the Velika Morava river and middle Danube region in Serbia. These items are products of local workshops, made by imitating models from the Ancient Greece region.
Their length is usually between 1 and 1.2 meters. Most common ornament on them is swastika, together with other geometrical and floral ornaments, such as hourglass and palmette, made in repoussage technique. In most cases they were excavated in pairs, in Tribalian and Illyrian “Princely graves” buried under artificial mounds.
Mramorac belts were used by local tribal aristocracy, as luxurious items, and symbols of social status and prestige. They were mostly made of silver, with several known pieces made of gold.
In princely grave in Novi Pazar was buried one person, most likely female, a member of local tribal aristocracy. She was buried along with rich grave offerings, consisting of numerous luxurious items locally produced and imported from distant areas, such as ancient Greece, southern Italy and eastern Mediterranean.
Princely graves are typical burials of Iron age Balkan cultures, buried under massive artificial mounds made of ground and stones. In those graves were buried members of local tribal aristocracy, who were accompanied to the afterlife by rich grave goods. Items laid in their graves reflect their wealth, gathered by trade and cultural connections with ancient world along the Mediterranean.
***This picture depicts an archaeological artifact. It is posted only for educational purposes, promoting historical and cultural heritage. Not related to or promoting any political or ideological option***

286264779_3126611180983953_3334468556930737060_n.jpg




Gold pectoral with geometrical ornaments, Iron age period, 6th-5th century BC, found in so called Illyrian "princely grave in Novi Pazar, south-western Serbia.
Collection of National Museum of Serbia in Belgrade.
In princely grave in Novi Pazar was buried one person, most likely female, a member of local tribal aristocracy. She was buried along with rich grave offerings, consisting of numerous luxurious items locally produced and imported from distant areas, such as ancient Greece, southern Italy and eastern Mediterranean.
Princely graves are typical burials of Iron age Balkan cultures, buried under massive artificial mounds made of ground and stones. In those graves were buried members of local tribal aristocracy, who were accompanied to the afterlife by rich grave goods. Items laid in their graves reflect their wealth, gathered by trade and cultural connections with ancient world along the Mediterranean

287180671_3128856547426083_2221042022560171226_n.jpg


Helmet of Illyrian-Greco type, bronze, 5th century BC, found in Serbia.
Collection of National Museum of Serbia in Belgrade

50407313_2149197538725327_4441294400823230464_n.jpg


Gold applicas, pectorals and pendants, Iron age period, 6th-5th century BC, found inside so called Illyrian "princely graves" in Novi Pazar, south-western Serbia.
Collection of National Museum of Serbia in Belgrade.
Princely graves are typical examples of Iron age Balkan cultures. They are buried under massive artificial mounds and are famous for valuable grave goods - amazing pieces of golden and silver jewelry made in local workshops, and imported objects such as amber items, fine pottery and multicolored glass from Baltic region, southern Italy, ancient Greece and eastern Mediterranean

103991524_2559016361076774_793911311512909062_n.jpg





Gold bead decorated with granulation technique, Iron age period, 6th-5th century BC, found in so called Illyrian "princely grave in Novi Pazar, south-western Serbia.
Collection of National Museum of Serbia in Belgrade.
In princely grave in Novi Pazar was buried one person, most likely female, a member of local tribal aristocracy. She was buried along with rich grave offerings, consisting of numerous luxurious items locally produced and imported from distant areas, such as ancient Greece, southern Italy and eastern Mediterranean.
Archaeologists have found many gold objects in her grave such as famous “Mramorac” belts, earrings, rings, pectorals and pendants, locally made, bud under strong Greek influence.
Besides that, this prehistoric noblewoman was buried with more than a 1000 items made of Baltic amber – figurines and various forms of jewelry produced in southern Italy, and numerous luxurious objects originating from Ancient Greece, such as typical Greek painted pottery, bronze vessels and other items, as well as several pieces of jewelry made of glass beads.
Princely graves are typical burials of Iron age Balkan cultures, buried under massive artificial mounds made of ground and stones. In those graves were buried members of local tribal aristocracy, who were accompanied to the afterlife by rich grave goods. Items laid in their graves reflect their wealth, gathered by trade and cultural connections with ancient world along the Mediterranean

279928806_3095679264077145_6750340652232692061_n.jpg


Necklaces composed of amber beads of different shape and size, Iron age period, 6th-5th century BC, found in one of “princely graves” in Atenica, vicinity of Čačak, western Serbia.
Collection of Museum in Čačak.
Amber from Iron age burials in western Serbia originates from the Baltic region in northern Europe. It was reaching Balkans region via trade routes along the Danube from Central Europe and from Italy via trading relations with communities on the Adriatic coast.
Two massive burial mounds made of stones and dirt were found in Atenica, containing graves of man and woman, members of local Tribalian or Illyrian aristocracy. They were buried with rich grave goods, gold, silver, glass and amber jewelry, metal and ceramic vessels, boxes with lids made of bone and horse equipment, which testify about rich material culture of Balkan tribes. Native local creations are enriched with imported objects from southern Italy, ancient Greece, Black sea region and Pontic steppes north of the Black sea in present-day Ukraine and Russia.
In a grave of a man archaeologists have found pieces of ancient weaponry, swords, spears, arrowheads and shields. Also, there were remains of a cart drag by horses, on which body of this man was carried to the burial stake and burnt.
Imports from Ionic Greek colonies from the Black sea came via trade routes along the Danube river, while items made by Scythians, such as distinctive three-lobed arrowheads were acquired by direct contacts with these nomadic people.
Princely graves are typical burials of Iron age Balkan cultures, buried under massive artificial mounds made of ground and stones. In those graves were buried members of local tribal aristocracy, who were accompanied to the afterlife by rich grave goods. Items laid in their graves reflect their wealth, gathered by trade and cultural connections with ancient world along the Mediterranean

243872107_2932161357095604_4381017340694304478_n.jpg
 
Beautiful piece of prehistoric jewelry, massive silver bracelets with endings shaped as snake heads, Iron age period, 5th century BC, found in a so called "princely grave" in Kruševica village at Golija mountain, vicinity of Raška, south-western Serbia.
Heads are skillfully shaped with amazing details depicting scales and eyes.
Collection of Museum in Kraljevo.
Burial mound in Kruševica was found accidentally by locals, during construction works. Construction workers tumble upon a grave of a woman, member of local tribal aristocracy. She was buried with 2 massive bracelets with snake heads, and several other pieces of luxurious jewelry made of silver and gold – necklaces, fibulae (brooches) and pendants, some of which were also decorated with snake motifs.
The motive of a snake is very common in many prehistoric cultures from the Balkan region, during the Iron age and Roman period. Wide outspread of snake motif, especially on jewelry, indicates that this animal had a special religious and cult significance for Paleo-Balkan tribes. Snake was worshiped as a chthonic deity and it was symbol of immortality and fertility.
Princely graves are typical examples of Iron age Balkan cultures. They are buried under massive artificial mounds and are famous for valuable grave goods - amazing pieces of golden and silver jewelry made in local workshops, and imported objects such as amber items, fine pottery and multicolored glass from Baltic region, southern Italy, ancient Greece and eastern Mediterranean

125558427_2697046577273751_1034918941165065459_n.jpg
 
Very interesting Hawk, thanks for sharing. That snake ring is quite rad.
 

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