J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

It could be that Urnfield became known as "illyrians" later on by the Greeks OR illyrians were in balkans before reported years but didn't have a big united tribe until later on as is the case with most cultures/tribes. Don't forget that there isn't much written history from illyrians themself so this name may have been given to them by the Greeks. All we know is that illyrians existed for a long time and they liked snakes/serpents
If you look at Greek history you can see that over time illyrians pushed further and further south possibly because they liked the warmer weather and then the slavs came pushing thracians east and illyrians more south


The illyrians where removed in bulk by the romans after the illyrian revolt ...it lasted 4 years

Native peoples of the two regions of Illyricum, Dalmatia and Pannonia, revolted against the Romans. The rebellion began among native peoples who had been recruited as auxiliary troops for the Roman army. They were led by Bato the Daesitiate, a chieftain of the Daesitiatae in the central part of present-day Bosnia, and were later joined by the Breuci, a tribe in Pannonia led by Bato the Breucian. Many other tribes in Illyria also joined the revolt.

these "illyrian" tribes fought the romans



The dalmatians and pannonians made up over 75% of the illyrian forces

After the revolt , the bulk of these people and families where moved to other parts of the empire .............illyria remained barren to a degree until the slav migration in late 600AD ........but goths moved through there 100 plus years before, maybe some stayed
 
The illyrians where removed in bulk by the romans after the illyrian revolt ...it lasted 4 years

Native peoples of the two regions of Illyricum, Dalmatia and Pannonia, revolted against the Romans. The rebellion began among native peoples who had been recruited as auxiliary troops for the Roman army. They were led by Bato the Daesitiate, a chieftain of the Daesitiatae in the central part of present-day Bosnia, and were later joined by the Breuci, a tribe in Pannonia led by Bato the Breucian. Many other tribes in Illyria also joined the revolt.

these "illyrian" tribes fought the romans



The dalmatians and pannonians made up over 75% of the illyrian forces

After the revolt , the bulk of these people and families where moved to other parts of the empire .............illyria remained barren to a degree until the slav migration in late 600AD ........but goths moved through there 100 plus years before, maybe some stayed

Illyria remained barren.....how you know that.
The opposite is true. Was full of life.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Illyria remained barren.....how you know that.
The opposite is true. Was full of life.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


from reading this


[h=1]The Great Illyrian Revolt: Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9 Hardcover – April 5, 2019[/h]

by Jason R Abdale (Author)
 
The illyrians where removed in bulk by the romans after the illyrian revolt ...it lasted 4 years
Native peoples of the two regions of Illyricum, Dalmatia and Pannonia, revolted against the Romans. The rebellion began among native peoples who had been recruited as auxiliary troops for the Roman army. They were led by Bato the Daesitiate, a chieftain of the Daesitiatae in the central part of present-day Bosnia, and were later joined by the Breuci, a tribe in Pannonia led by Bato the Breucian. Many other tribes in Illyria also joined the revolt.
these "illyrian" tribes fought the romans
The dalmatians and pannonians made up over 75% of the illyrian forces
After the revolt , the bulk of these people and families where moved to other parts of the empire .............illyria remained barren to a degree until the slav migration in late 600AD ........but goths moved through there 100 plus years before, maybe some stayed

This could be true and a lot of these were taken by romans to join their army, could be why slavs were able to move in to that land quite easily

But my point was that illyrians had already moved further south and made regular contact with greeks as they have written, these southern illyrian tribes remained (ardiae, taulanti, labeates, dassareti etc) and accepted roman rule (after some conflict first) byzantine mentioned illyrians until 700AD, the others probably became scarce hid in mountains or were taken to rome
 
This could be true and a lot of these were taken by romans to join their army, could be why slavs were able to move in to that land quite easily
But my point was that illyrians had already moved further south and made regular contact with greeks as they have written, these southern illyrian tribes remained (ardiae, taulanti, labeates, dassareti etc) and accepted roman rule (after some conflict first) byzantine mentioned illyrians until 700AD, the others probably became scarce hid in mountains or were taken to rome


IIRC, the illyrians first contact was not with greeks when they moved south , but against Philip of Macedon ( alexander the great father ) and the following many wars they had ........macedonians eventually made peace with them( illyrians) and then went on to conquer all the greeks

Taulanti are one of the 3 main dardanian tribes

The illyrians where not one group who spoke the same language or even had similar names ...............sent to me via a spanish DNA study 2015

The strongest barrier (a) indicates that the main differentiation in the distribution of Illyrian names occurs along the northwestern-southeastern direction, separating the areas of Noricum, Veneti, Histri and Liburni from all other groups. The second differentiation zone (b) encloses the area of Dardanians, while the third boundary (c) appears between Dalmatae, Pannonians and Autariates. The fourth barrier (d) encloses Liburni within the northwestern area.

Noricum = East Austria ( Vienna area )
Liburians = modern coastal croatia
Histri = Istria
Dalmatae = dalmatians
Autariates = from Montenegro lands
 
from reading this


[h=1]The Great Illyrian Revolt: Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9 Hardcover – April 5, 2019[/h]

by Jason R Abdale (Author)

Many auxiliary Cohorts were raised by that province. Someone remained. If you se Croatia today you will find the same cities of that time. Barren la and is out of question.

Cohors I Delmatarum
Cohors I Delmatarum milliaria equitata
Cohors II Delmatarum
Cohors III Delmatarum equitata c.R. pf
Cohors IV Delmatarum
Cohors V Delmatarum
Cohors V Delmatarum c.R.
Cohors VI Delmatarum equitata
Cohors VII Delmatarum equitata
And later the Equites Dalmatae


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
from reading this


[h=1]The Great Illyrian Revolt: Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9 Hardcover – April 5, 2019[/h]

by Jason R Abdale (Author)

Can you provide the page, it does not say anything about barren land.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
So there is E-Z38240 Posušje culture find and J-Z615 Mokrin find.

There are multiple cases of bowls with four handles occurring in Posušje culture sites. These are typical of Maros culture, and especially of
Mokrin necropolis. According to archeologists (Govedarica) this represents Pannonian influence in the Early phase of Posušje culture. Considering the Mokrin find, this sample being more basal this could represent the arrival of J-Z597. Though TMRCA is little bit off, This couldn't have happened prior to 1900-2000 BC. And Mokrin separated from J-Z597 a bit before. Interestingly this is just after Ljubljana culture, often on the same site.. If taken this way then Ljubljana people would have to have been some basal R-U152 or the like.

So there are some direct archeological links between MBA Dalmatian Posušje culture and Mokrin. In this instance it has arrived from Mokrin direction. Few earlier Maros culture (not Mokrin, these are from an earlier study) finds don't look too different autosomally from Dalmatian finds.
 
A person from West Hungary is tested J-L283+ and S23613- through YSEQ. This is a J-Z622 SNP so he is ~J-L283*, and at 15/37 very distant with the Armenian on YFull. He has a WGS on order, so we should see him on YFull at some point.

Btw, ORC007 is not J-L283* as he has one positive read for Z622. To me ORC007 cannot be placed confidently below Z622 due to low coverage, although I think odds are he is J-Z600>YP157 like the other ancient Sardinians which are from the same site and timeframe.
 
So there is E-Z38240 Posušje culture find and J-Z615 Mokrin find.
There are multiple cases of bowls with four handles occurring in Posušje culture sites. These are typical of Maros culture, and especially of
Mokrin necropolis. According to archeologists (Govedarica) this represents Pannonian influence in the Early phase of Posušje culture. Considering the Mokrin find, this sample being more basal this could represent the arrival of J-Z597. Though TMRCA is little bit off, This couldn't have happened prior to 1900-2000 BC. And Mokrin separated from J-Z597 a bit before. Interestingly this is just after Ljubljana culture, often on the same site.. If taken this way then Ljubljana people would have to have been some basal R-U152 or the like.
So there are some direct archeological links between MBA Dalmatian Posušje culture and Mokrin. In this instance it has arrived from Mokrin direction. Few earlier Maros culture (not Mokrin, these are from an earlier study) finds don't look too different autosomally from Dalmatian finds.

That timeframe for J-Z597 expansion into western Balkans may actually be right on. Expansions to a different region usually happen a few hundred years after the TMRCA lived (ex. I-Y3120 TMRCA and the expansion to the Balkans).

Interesting. I read about these parallels between Maros and Posusje elsewhere too. On a different forum, user Pribislav elaborated about these parallels including Polada in north Italy, Sardinia, and J-L283:

"I'm not saying Pannonian tribes, and some other tribes from the northwestern part of the Balkans (Liburnians, Japodes) weren't Illyrian, or at least Illyrian-related, I just wanted to point out that the bulk of Illyrian tribes we know from historical sources stem from the "core" Illyrian area in the mountanious regions of the western Balkans, which was almost unaffected by the Urnfield expansions. In fact, those core regions had practically uninterrupted ethnocultural (and likely ethnogenetic) development from the earliest phases of the Middle Bronze Age all the way to the Roman conquest of Illyricum. So while I don't dispute that Pannonian tribes, Liburnians and Japodes were affected by Urnfield (it's a fact, proven by numerous archaeological findings), it is clear that the dominant ethnic element among Illyrians as a whole wasn't derived from Urnfield, and is in fact much more ancient.

Illyrian ethnogenesis started long before Urnfield, with the earliest phase (pre-proto-Illyrian) beginning in the latest phase of EBA and/or earliest phase of MBA (roughly 1900-1700 BC). This period is characterized by the appearance of new distinctive elements in the archaeological record of the East Adriatic coast, coming from the north/northwest, which resulted in the formation of new archaeological culture, called Posuška or Dinarska culture. Some of these new elements had their closest parallels in the Northern Italy (Polada culture) and Pannonian basin (Nagyrev and related cultures), as has been pointed out by Blagoje Govedarica. For example:

B. Govedarica; Early Bronze Age in the East Adriatic; p.165-166

Handles of the "anse ad ascia" type are best documented in the Apennine Peninsula and in southeastern France. Their mass appearance has been linked to the proto-Apennine culture ("Protoapenninico B"), the dating of which is not fully resolved, but is most often placed in the period corresponding to the younger phase of the Early Bronze Age in the South German chronology, that is stage Br. A2. In this sense, especially indicative is the typological development of "ansa ad ascia" in the territory of Sardinia and northern Italy, established by M. Ceccanti. In his opinion, this type of handle evolved from "ansa a gomito" of the Bell Beaker-pre-Bonnanaro type, and he distinguishes the following three phases in its development:

- The first phase (type 1) corresponds to the handles of the "gomito" shape, which are present in Sardinia, as well as in the sites of the Polada culture in Trentino area and in the wider area of northern Italy.

- The formation of the "ascia" shape (type 2) occurs in the following developmental stage. According to Ceccanti, it is a time of the developed Polada culture, i.e. the end of Early Bronze Age and transition to the Middle Bronze Age.

- The third type of "ax-like" handle ("canonico" type) with a large extension, already belongs to the Middle Bronze Age.

Presented evolution of ax-like handles is in agreement with the previous dating by M. A. F. Delpino and other Italian authors, where it is presented as a typical product of development within the Western Mediterranean cultural circle. Specimens found in the area of Posuška/Dinarska culture correspond best to Ceccanti's type 2, and within it not to the Sardinian, but to the northern Italian variant, found at the sites of Palidoro, Scoglietto and others. Individual "pseudobrassarda" findings from the territory of Posuška/Dinarska culture also have their best analogies in the late Polada culture of northern Italy.

During the first phase of the Posuška/Dinarska culture, we are seeing for the first time elements which indicate a stronger connection of the lower Adriatic area with the wider Balkan hinterland and Pannonia. In this sense, particularly indicative are flat-botom vessels, with short curved neck and four banded handles, which were found in the tumuli at sites Rupe near Skradin and Đelalije near Šibenik. Vessels of this type were very numerous within the Nagyrev culture. The closest analogies to vessels found in the area of Posuška/Dinarska culture were found in the Mokrin necropolis, where this type lasted for a very long period. Analogies found in the area of Hatvan culture should also be mentioned, where these forms are considered as a typical Nagyrev element.
It's almost uncanny how some already published aDNA samples support archaeological findings mentioned above. We have:

- J2b2a-L283 sample from Posuška/Dinarska culture, dated 1631-1521 BC (Veliki Vanik in modern Croatia)

- several J2b2a-L283 samples from Sardinia dating to the Nuragic period (1400-1000 BC), which developed from the earlier Bonnanaro culture, which was in turn (at least partially) developed from the Polada culture of Northern Italy

- J2b2a-L283 sample from the Mokrin necropolis, dated 2100-1800 BC, belonging to Maros/Perjamos culture, which was developed from the earlier Nagyrev culture

I would argue that even proto-Thracian ethnogenesis started several centuries before Urnfield. Just as the dominant ethnic element of proto-Illyrians ultimately originated in the EBA Pannonia and/or Northern Italy, the dominant ethnic element of proto-Thracians and their distant cousins proto-Daco-Moesians ultimately most likely originated in the post-Catacomb cultural area in the western Pontic Steppes (Babino, Noua, Monteoru, Coslogeni, Gava, Sabatinovka cultures). Both proto-Thracians and proto-Daco-Moesians were strongly influenced by proto-Iranian tribes of the Srubna culture. That's why many authors argue Thracian language belonged to the satem group, or was at least partially satemized. And in the end, that's why the expression Thraco-Cimmerian was introduced in the first place."
 
That timeframe for J-Z597 expansion into western Balkans may actually be right on. Expansions to a different region usually happen a few hundred years after the TMRCA lived (ex. I-Y3120 TMRCA and the expansion to the Balkans).
Interesting. I read about these parallels between Maros and Posusje elsewhere too. On a different forum, user Pribislav elaborated about these parallels including Polada in north Italy, Sardinia, and J-L283:
"I'm not saying Pannonian tribes, and some other tribes from the northwestern part of the Balkans (Liburnians, Japodes) weren't Illyrian, or at least Illyrian-related, I just wanted to point out that the bulk of Illyrian tribes we know from historical sources stem from the "core" Illyrian area in the mountanious regions of the western Balkans, which was almost unaffected by the Urnfield expansions. In fact, those core regions had practically uninterrupted ethnocultural (and likely ethnogenetic) development from the earliest phases of the Middle Bronze Age all the way to the Roman conquest of Illyricum. So while I don't dispute that Pannonian tribes, Liburnians and Japodes were affected by Urnfield (it's a fact, proven by numerous archaeological findings), it is clear that the dominant ethnic element among Illyrians as a whole wasn't derived from Urnfield, and is in fact much more ancient.
Illyrian ethnogenesis started long before Urnfield, with the earliest phase (pre-proto-Illyrian) beginning in the latest phase of EBA and/or earliest phase of MBA (roughly 1900-1700 BC). This period is characterized by the appearance of new distinctive elements in the archaeological record of the East Adriatic coast, coming from the north/northwest, which resulted in the formation of new archaeological culture, called Posuška or Dinarska culture. Some of these new elements had their closest parallels in the Northern Italy (Polada culture) and Pannonian basin (Nagyrev and related cultures), as has been pointed out by Blagoje Govedarica. For example:
B. Govedarica; Early Bronze Age in the East Adriatic; p.165-166
Handles of the "anse ad ascia" type are best documented in the Apennine Peninsula and in southeastern France. Their mass appearance has been linked to the proto-Apennine culture ("Protoapenninico B"), the dating of which is not fully resolved, but is most often placed in the period corresponding to the younger phase of the Early Bronze Age in the South German chronology, that is stage Br. A2. In this sense, especially indicative is the typological development of "ansa ad ascia" in the territory of Sardinia and northern Italy, established by M. Ceccanti. In his opinion, this type of handle evolved from "ansa a gomito" of the Bell Beaker-pre-Bonnanaro type, and he distinguishes the following three phases in its development:
- The first phase (type 1) corresponds to the handles of the "gomito" shape, which are present in Sardinia, as well as in the sites of the Polada culture in Trentino area and in the wider area of northern Italy.
- The formation of the "ascia" shape (type 2) occurs in the following developmental stage. According to Ceccanti, it is a time of the developed Polada culture, i.e. the end of Early Bronze Age and transition to the Middle Bronze Age.
- The third type of "ax-like" handle ("canonico" type) with a large extension, already belongs to the Middle Bronze Age.
Presented evolution of ax-like handles is in agreement with the previous dating by M. A. F. Delpino and other Italian authors, where it is presented as a typical product of development within the Western Mediterranean cultural circle. Specimens found in the area of Posuška/Dinarska culture correspond best to Ceccanti's type 2, and within it not to the Sardinian, but to the northern Italian variant, found at the sites of Palidoro, Scoglietto and others. Individual "pseudobrassarda" findings from the territory of Posuška/Dinarska culture also have their best analogies in the late Polada culture of northern Italy.
During the first phase of the Posuška/Dinarska culture, we are seeing for the first time elements which indicate a stronger connection of the lower Adriatic area with the wider Balkan hinterland and Pannonia. In this sense, particularly indicative are flat-botom vessels, with short curved neck and four banded handles, which were found in the tumuli at sites Rupe near Skradin and Đelalije near Šibenik. Vessels of this type were very numerous within the Nagyrev culture. The closest analogies to vessels found in the area of Posuška/Dinarska culture were found in the Mokrin necropolis, where this type lasted for a very long period. Analogies found in the area of Hatvan culture should also be mentioned, where these forms are considered as a typical Nagyrev element.
It's almost uncanny how some already published aDNA samples support archaeological findings mentioned above. We have:
- J2b2a-L283 sample from Posuška/Dinarska culture, dated 1631-1521 BC (Veliki Vanik in modern Croatia)
- several J2b2a-L283 samples from Sardinia dating to the Nuragic period (1400-1000 BC), which developed from the earlier Bonnanaro culture, which was in turn (at least partially) developed from the Polada culture of Northern Italy
- J2b2a-L283 sample from the Mokrin necropolis, dated 2100-1800 BC, belonging to Maros/Perjamos culture, which was developed from the earlier Nagyrev culture
I would argue that even proto-Thracian ethnogenesis started several centuries before Urnfield. Just as the dominant ethnic element of proto-Illyrians ultimately originated in the EBA Pannonia and/or Northern Italy, the dominant ethnic element of proto-Thracians and their distant cousins proto-Daco-Moesians ultimately most likely originated in the post-Catacomb cultural area in the western Pontic Steppes (Babino, Noua, Monteoru, Coslogeni, Gava, Sabatinovka cultures). Both proto-Thracians and proto-Daco-Moesians were strongly influenced by proto-Iranian tribes of the Srubna culture. That's why many authors argue Thracian language belonged to the satem group, or was at least partially satemized. And in the end, that's why the expression Thraco-Cimmerian was introduced in the first place."

The Japodes are the
The Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes; Greek: Ἰάποδες) were an ancient people who dwelt north of and inland from the Liburnians, off the Adriatic coast and eastwards of the Istrian peninsula.

The Iapygians or Apulians (Greek: Ἰάπυγες, Ĭāpyges; Latin: Iapyges, Iapygii) are the same people as the Japodes........they are the

The region was known to the Greeks of the 5th century BC as Iapygía ('Ιαπυγία), and its inhabitants as the Iápyges ('Ιάπυγες).[1] It was probably the term used by the indigenous peoples to designate themselves.[1] The name 'Iapyges' has also been compared to that of the 'Iapydes', an Illyrian tribe of northern Dalmatia.[2]
Some ancient sources treat Iapygians and Messapians as synonymous, and several writers of the Roman period referred to them as 'Apuli' in the north,

so Japodes have been in northern balkans with the Liburnians from 1500BC ..................they ( some ) moved to apulia in 1000BC

I have been saying this for many years

So the J-L283 , moved from alpine north to balkan south + italy over time
 
The Japodes are the
The Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes; Greek: Ἰάποδες) were an ancient people who dwelt north of and inland from the Liburnians, off the Adriatic coast and eastwards of the Istrian peninsula.
The Iapygians or Apulians (Greek: Ἰάπυγες, Ĭāpyges; Latin: Iapyges, Iapygii) are the same people as the Japodes........they are the

The region was known to the Greeks of the 5th century BC as Iapygía ('Ιαπυγία), and its inhabitants as the Iápyges ('Ιάπυγες).[1] It was probably the term used by the indigenous peoples to designate themselves.[1] The name 'Iapyges' has also been compared to that of the 'Iapydes', an Illyrian tribe of northern Dalmatia.[2]
Some ancient sources treat Iapygians and Messapians as synonymous, and several writers of the Roman period referred to them as 'Apuli' in the north,
so Japodes have been in northern balkans with the Liburnians from 1500BC ..................they ( some ) moved to apulia in 1000BC
I have been saying this for many years
So the J-L283 , moved from alpine north to balkan south + italy over time

L283 has vanished to obscurity in Italy it was clearly outnumbered, the bulk of the tribe/culture is in balkans and maybe some was taken back to Italy by the Romans later. It has only remained strong in north Albanians today which points to a major settlement from croatia/bosnia southward following south slavic invasions. Though its possible l283 was found from Slovenia all the way down to south Albania in the bronze age and has remained there at different levels today

I know this is a topic about l283 but it would be cool to know which other haplogroups moved alongside l283 as allies because at 1500bc it is doubtful that these people were pure l283. Does anyone have any strong links?
 
Urnfielders were not Illyrian but Venetic speaking (in the West). Even Pannonian Illyrian tribes are nothing other than mixture of indigenous Urnfielders and incoming Glasinac J-L283 who Illyrianized them. In Middle Iron Age Glasinac had the big push, whereas few centures before Urnfielders were invading.. Archeological evidence is quite clear.. J-Z631 with its Iron Age TMRCA of 2800 ybp now makes alot more sense as it has also some presence in Pannonia, N.Carpathians.. As well as in the Balkans.. At first glance of 12 J-L283 Hungarians (1 at YFull, not sure if he is from FTDNA) 4 are Z631. Ofc almost all Hungarian J-L283 are from the Western part..
 
it is a mistake to try to make Y-DNAs already present in the Middle Bronze perfectly coincide with later ethnic groups that only form definitively in the Iron Age.
 
Urnfielders were not Illyrian but Venetic speaking (in the West). Even Pannonian Illyrian tribes are nothing other than mixture of indigenous Urnfielders and incoming Glasinac J-L283 who Illyrianized them. In Middle Iron Age Glasinac had the big push, whereas few centures before Urnfielders were invading.. Archeological evidence is quite clear.. J-Z631 with its Iron Age TMRCA of 2800 ybp now makes alot more sense as it has also some presence in Pannonia, N.Carpathians.. As well as in the Balkans.. At first glance of 12 J-L283 Hungarians (1 at YFull, not sure if he is from FTDNA) 4 are Z631. Ofc almost all Hungarian J-L283 are from the Western part..


a lot of Illyrians came down to invade macedonia along with the Celtic invasion of Macedonia in 280BC ( and modern Serbia )

they , celtic and illyrians merged from Halstatt culture times ..............which is why we also see illyrian men and women have tatoos

https://www.academia.edu/10087747/Bonds_of_Blood_On_Inter_Ethnic_Marriage_in_the_Iron_Age
 
it is a mistake to try to make Y-DNAs already present in the Middle Bronze perfectly coincide with later ethnic groups that only form definitively in the Iron Age.

Indeed but in this instance Glasinac culture has MBA continuity and is further down the line connected to this Dalmatian J-L283 find...

Glasinac expansion basically created the "Illyrian world" in its Antiquity borders. Eastwards they defeated Triballians, occupied Dardania, and illyrianized local non-Illyrian Dardanian element. Reports of slavery amongst Dardanians some authors connect with Glasinac newcomers enslaving the locals, so that it was ethnic based. In NW Bosnia, Slavonia, and southern Pannonia they imposed themselves upon the Urnfield descended locals who were also Illyrianized. This is how the Pannonian linguistic group likely came to being as there was some substrate left from the old Urnfield population. In essence because of Glasinac-Mati complex Illyrian language became more widespread. In LBA/EIA they withstood the Urnfield onslaught and few centuries later they had the upper hand..

@ Torzio, yes they did push to the SE as well, there are many finds of Illyrian helmets in Macedonia..
 
Indeed but in this instance Glasinac culture has MBA continuity and is further down the line connected to this Dalmatian J-L283 find...

Glasinac expansion basically created the "Illyrian world" in its Antiquity borders. Eastwards they defeated Triballians, occupied Dardania, and illyrianized local non-Illyrian Dardanian element. Reports of slavery amongst Dardanians some authors connect with Glasinac newcomers enslaving the locals, so that it was ethnic based. In NW Bosnia, Slavonia, and southern Pannonia they imposed themselves upon the Urnfield descended locals who were also Illyrianized. This is how the Pannonian linguistic group likely came to being as there was some substrate left from the old Urnfield population. In essence because of Glasinac-Mati complex Illyrian language became more widespread. In LBA/EIA they withstood the Urnfield onslaught and few centuries later they had the upper hand..

@ Torzio, yes they did push to the SE as well, there are many finds of Illyrian helmets in Macedonia..

It’s always nice to read your posts. I’m an American of mostly Polish ancestry looking to learn more about L283. Your posts are very informative for someone like myself trying to learn more about Bronze Age/Iron Age population movements in the Balkans and near vicinity.
 

This thread has been viewed 489524 times.

Back
Top