J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

What? I'm talking about the Caucaus HG that gave rise to IE people.

He’s a J2b, but not J2b L283. He belongs to an older, upstream branch. See below.

Per Trojet over at AG:

“The authors were nice enough to respond to an inquiry with regards to NEO281, 7773 BC, Kotias Klde, Georgia. They confirmed he is indeed Y haplogroup J2b, and more specifically should split YFull's current J2b-Z1825 level (ISOGG's J2b2-Z1827 branch).”



 
He’s a J2b, but not J2b L283. He belongs to an older, upstream branch. See below.

Per Trojet over at AG:

“The authors were nice enough to respond to an inquiry with regards to NEO281, 7773 BC, Kotias Klde, Georgia. They confirmed he is indeed Y haplogroup J2b, and more specifically should split YFull's current J2b-Z1825 level (ISOGG's J2b2-Z1827 branch).”


Considering they appear in the Maros culture with R-Z2103, what speaks against them travelling with Yamnaya to Pannonia?
 
Considering they appear in the Maros culture with R-Z2103, what speaks against them travelling with Yamnaya to Pannonia?
Wait this specific branch appears in Maros? Or are you referring to L283 in general?
 
Only in general.

Have to agree the hypothesis you mentioned is very attractive.
The fact that J, J2a and J2b have been found in one cave is quite a coincidence. Means a quite diversified J based population was in the area. It remains to be seen if L283 was part of the HG group contributing to Steppe though, since so far very circumstantial evidence to back it up.
 
Have to agree the hypothesis you mentioned is very attractive.
The fact that J, J2a and J2b have been found in one cave is quite a coincidence. Means a quite diversified J based population was in the area. It remains to be seen if L283 was part of the HG group contributing to Steppe though, since so far very circumstantial evidence to back it up.

The real steppe mixture came up in the Lower Don area and I think J-/CHG-heavy colonists moved up the Black Sea as fairly advanced fishers, beginning pastoralists, especially with ovicaprids. There they came into close contact with local foragers of Piemont steppe and Don region. This resulted in the mixture and the local foragers turned out dominant, which is why soon later most were R1+. But J should have been dominant in the early Caucasian colonists and it should have stayed relevant in the Lower Don Culture still. There is no reason it couldn't have been a steppe minority lineage in some areas.
Its also possible it was spread later from e.g. Maykop.

But of course, a completely different Southern route with other e.g. Anatolian Neolithic colonists is thinkable too, but at this point simply less likely imho.
 
Caucasus paper hopefully will shed light on the issue. I think statistically speaking, as plausible as your theory seems, a complete Y replacement based on economic specialization is quite unlikely. As economic equilibria would have swung the tides before a complete replacement, leaving at least minimal Y signal for a population that would have contributed 50% of the autosomal.
I think we are missing a big part of the puzzle, and hopefully new studies will point in the right direction.
 
Caucasus paper hopefully will shed light on the issue. I think statistically speaking, as plausible as your theory seems, a complete Y replacement based on economic specialization is quite unlikely. As economic equilibria would have swung the tides before a complete replacement, leaving at least minimal Y signal for a population that would have contributed 50% of the autosomal.
I think we are missing a big part of the puzzle, and hopefully new studies will point in the right direction.

These were founder effects among the PIE clans. We have no idea about how in detail the diversity in the Lower Don areas was before. Just think about the later founder effects in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Bell Beakers and other groups. Not just in the PIE sphere, also in Western and Central Europe among the GAC agro-pastoralists. Q was probably there as well but left not much of a mark on the PIE of later generations.
 
These were founder effects among the PIE clans. We have no idea about how in detail the diversity in the Lower Don areas was before. Just think about the later founder effects in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Bell Beakers and other groups. Not just in the PIE sphere, also in Western and Central Europe among the GAC agro-pastoralists. Q was probably there as well but left not much of a mark on the PIE of later generations.

What do you think of this hypothesis.

A middle phase population rich in EHG CHG autosomal makeup being the mediator for these Don populations. As a middle phase this would allow for founder effects etc diluting unipaternals way before it became the vehicle for CHG further north in Yamnaya / Steppe? This would imply the EHG CHG mix happend way earlier somewhere further south just north of the Caucasus Range, and this very mix going further north would later give rise to the Steppe pops?

Got this idea reading some back and forths from Davidski in his comment section on one of the papers.
 
What do you think of this hypothesis.
A middle phase population rich in EHG CHG autosomal makeup being the mediator for these Don populations. As a middle phase this would allow for founder effects etc diluting unipaternals way before it became the vehicle for CHG further north in Yamnaya / Steppe? This would imply the EHG CHG mix happend way earlier somewhere further south just north of the Caucasus Range, and this very mix going further north would later give rise to the Steppe pops?
Got this idea reading some back and forths from Davidski in his comment section on one of the papers.
The Lower Don was archaeologically a hotspot with influences and innovations reaching the area from different directions. It became a Demographie and cultural source region with important sites like R. yar.
Whatever happened it being reflected in what happened there. That the Middle Don samples being similar to the Mariupol group, just somewhat different, speaks for itself as well.
They moved upwards while mixing with local less CHG rich people.
 
He’s a J2b, but not J2b L283. He belongs to an older, upstream branch. See below.

Per Trojet over at AG:

“The authors were nice enough to respond to an inquiry with regards to NEO281, 7773 BC, Kotias Klde, Georgia. They confirmed he is indeed Y haplogroup J2b, and more specifically should split YFull's current J2b-Z1825 level (ISOGG's J2b2-Z1827 branch).”




I am aware he is not L283, but we don't have R-L151 in the steppe either. It's simple inference. It'd be almost impossible to find the exact branch of these HGs that gave rise to L283 since it was a minor lineage. The question is finding his relatives.
 
Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
R3544 Gardun, Croatia J-Z1043+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/


The J2b-L283s from the paper above as of now.



 
Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
R3544 Gardun, Croatia J-Z1043+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/


The J2b-L283s from the paper above as of now.

The Montenegrines show no overlap with Albanians, the others are in the same upstream clades, but no recent founders depending on the debth of the analysis.
 
The Montenegrines show no overlap with Albanians, the others are in the same upstream clades, but no recent founders depending on the debth of the analysis.

In what sense do you mean overlap? As of clades? My mother's paternal side are part of the Korbi tribe whom you can find all the way from Kukes, Albania to Eastern Kosovo J2b-L283>Z597>Z631>Z1043>Y22894





 

In what sense do you mean overlap? As of clades? My mother's paternal side are part of the Korbi tribe whom you can find all the way from Kukes, Albania to Eastern Kosovo J2b-L283>Z597>Z631>Z1043>Y22894

I mean these new rather Northern Illyrian subclade samples from Montenegro and that they don't have modern Albanian counterparts. Seem to be unrelated to modern Albanian patrilineages.
 
I mean these new rather Northern Illyrian subclade samples from Montenegro and that they don't have modern Albanian counterparts. Seem to be unrelated to modern Albanian patrilineages.

There is only one late antiquity sample from Montenegro: R3481, (~260 CE) Doclea, Montenegro which belongs to J2b-L283>>Z638>>Z631>Z1043.

In the Balkans, this subclade is mostly found among Albanians, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting... (The other sample from Montenegro, J-CTS6190, is only Medieval, so not exactly "ancient").

While a BCE sample would've been more significant, this is still a pretty significant find for J-Z631>Z1043. He is likely part of the Docleatae. User Aspurg may have been right after all :embarassed: when he proposed that J-Z631 may have undergone its demographic expansion as part of IA Glasinac-Mati cultural complex.
 
There is only one late antiquity sample from Montenegro: R3481, (~260 CE) Doclea, Montenegro which belongs to J2b-L283>>Z638>>Z631>Z1043.
In the Balkans, this subclade is mostly found among Albanians, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting... (The other sample from Montenegro, J-CTS6190, is only Medieval, so not exactly "ancient").
While a BCE sample would've been more significant, this is still a pretty significant find for J-Z631>Z1043. He is likely part of the Docleatae. User Aspurg may have been right after all :embarassed: when he proposed that J-Z631 may have undergone its demographic expansion as part of IA Glasinac-Mati cultural complex.

Not quite the grotta della mura moment, but I am pretty sure that Y pops up in my paternal grandmother family through one of her cousins.
Now all I need is a G2-P15>L30>M406 from my maternal Y and I got a poker. :unsure:
It seems with ancient samples when it rains it pours. So I have quite high hope a lot more Albanian Y's will prove through ancient samples continuity in Illyrian>Albanian lands.

Edited: It gets quite confusing when having three different Y subclades in your extended family just through your fathers cousins etc.
 
So ancient J-L283 samples were found in tunisia I think at around 500BC but I don't think there has been ancient iberian J-L283 samples discovered.
Does this imply that J-L283 did not arrive in spain until roman and phonecian berber migration through mercenaries or roman soldiers / colonist?
Or perhaps ancient greek settlements also?
 
So ancient J-L283 samples were found in tunisia I think at around 500BC but I don't think there has been ancient iberian J-L283 samples discovered.
Does this imply that J-L283 did not arrive in spain until roman and phonecian berber migration through mercenaries or roman soldiers / colonist?
Or perhaps ancient greek settlements also?

J2b-L283 is unlikely a Phoenician/Berber marker, it has been found in Sardinia, and in North Africa it came from Italy, Greece, or the Balkans.
 

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