J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[torzio]

I have to see if I find some study about that later.

In any case

Maros culture has 55 percent aegean.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunians

There are numerous testimonies among ancient authors (Pseudo-Scylax, Virgil, Festus, Servius) of a presence of the Daunians beyond the Apennines in Campania and Latium where some towns claimed Diomedian origins.

you do realise if the Daunians are known as Iapygian like the Messapics are....and that Iapygian is known as a Greek term for Iapodes ......we all know that the Iapodes are from modern north croatia ................then the messapics are then from Northern Croatia ............occam razor system ............

Since you believe Strabo....then the bulk ( 70 to 80% ) of Illyrians come from the eastern alps and pannonia ...........

 

[Wanderer]

you do realise if the Daunians are known as Iapygian like the Messapics are....and that Iapygian is known as a Greek term for Iapodes ......we all know that the Iapodes are from modern north croatia ................then the messapics are then from Northern Croatia ............occam razor system ............

Since you believe Strabo....then the bulk ( 70 to 80% ) of Illyrians come from the eastern alps and pannonia ...........

Maros culture J-L283 is north with heavy agean ancestry at 55 percent. I dont believe that they necessarily came from north but I believe that they arrived on the adriatic shore they spread north.
We have 4 sardinian J-L283 -z615 clades which is strange and no younger clades in terms of ancient samples it looks like. Even most of the non ancient sardinian samples are -615.
And one J-BY161113 that is 615 positive is a very basal offshoot of of a croatian J-Z38240 from close to 1500 BC

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

The croatian also has a decendant in bari Italy J-FT273311*
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT273311*/


And you have one in cosenza italy which is closer to sardinia which is also diverging from a croatian
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT366875/
Are both basal z597 clades

The ones in firenze and lukka are not far from each other which are basal z585
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT289318/
But all the other basal italian z585 are sardinian

Ancient very basal J-L283 trend
We have ancient samples not far from the paeonian plains.
They are right behind the palegonian mountains. Between both paenonians and dardania. Or maybe the mountains are called mount mount korab?

So you see the maros culture is actually way more north then where paenonian tribes were but the majority of J-L283 are south by the adriatic. And we have some J-L283 at 6th century BC close to the Paeonian tribes and dardanians. So its not a co incident that we also have macadonian army J-L283 decendants in the middle east and one in india

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT29034*/

 

[Wanderer]

Also to note there seems to be almost no J2b2 non J-L283 on yfull that is European. So this transition from J2b2 to J-L283 means it migrated quite fast and was bottle necked before or after migration in my opinion. Likely before migration and then migrated away. My opinion is that this J-L283 probably migrated after some kind of disaster of their homeland. Maybe a massacre or maybe was away and their homeland was destroyed

 

[Wanderer]

Also maros culture is near where the thracian tribe known as albocensi is at. Its called albo?
I don't know your languages and etymologies but I thought it was interesting. Of course maros culture is way before possibly this list of tribes.

 

[Polska]

Also to note there seems to be almost no J2b2 non J-L283 on yfull that is European. So this transition from J2b2 to J-L283 means it migrated quite fast and was bottle necked before or after migration in my opinion. Likely before migration and then migrated away. My opinion is that this J-L283 probably migrated after some kind of disaster of their homeland. Maybe a massacre or maybe was away and their homeland was destroyed

Remember, not everything needs to be a disaster in order for a group to move. I realize you’re not a big fan of the steppe hypothesis as it relates to the spread of J2b L283 further west into Pannonia and the Balkans. Starting around 4200BC there was a terrible freeze that impacted much of Europe and lasted, so I’ve read, possibly a couple of centuries. This may have adversely impacted the Cucuteni Trypillian people as well as other old Europe cultures that were heavily reliant on farming as a way of life. However, groups to the east of these old world groups may have been more resilient because they were pastoralists and moved with their animals. They would have had sustenance via milk from their animals and a plentiful supply of meat. These pastoralists would have moved east to west across the dry steppe eventually coming into
contact with old Europe groups who may have retreated further west due to loss of their crops and possibly the intrusion of these pastoralists from the east.

Additionally, there was also a lot of trade going on between the Balkans and the steppe stretching all the way across to the Caucasus. During all of this activity we see J2b L283 start to expand with several branches forming between about 4000 to 3500 BC. These were pre Yamnaya groups who, from the sounds of it, were very Yamnaya like based on their autosomal makeup (according to Davidski at Eurogenes).

The other point that’s worth mentioning: this Aegean ancestry component from Mokrin was the same in all the samples regardless of Y haplogroup. The Aegean ancestry would be the same as Anatolian Farmer (ANF) or Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry. It’s just that there is a lack of standardization amongst academics in genetic genealogy regarding terminology used to describe these different components. Most J2b L283 and R1b M269 samples from about 2000 BC found there in the Balkans and Pannonia typically have about 20/20 mix of EHG and CHG ancestry and roughly 60% EEF ancestry. This EEF ancestry is to be expected because that was the predominant ancestry component found throughout the Balkans prior to the arrival of steppe groups from the east.

The big news? They now have the oldest ever R1b M269 ever discovered from Smyadovo, Bulgaria. He belonged to the Karanovo Culture and is dated to around 4500 BC. This was an Old Europe group not associated with early IE expansions. And yet all these years later, we have a treasure trove of ancient L283s from across the Balkans, Pannonia…even Africa…but still not a single ancient Neolithic J2b L283. Yet the mere suggestion that it could have crossed the steppe still triggers grand mal seizures amongst some of the “know it alls” on line. Quite remarkable.

 

[Archetype0ne]

During all of this activity we see J2b L283 start to expand with several branches forming between about 4000 to 3500 BC. These were pre Yamnaya groups who, from the sounds of it, were very Yamnaya like based on their autosomal makeup (according to Davidski at Eurogenes).

Could you please elaborate?

 

[Wanderer]

Remember, not everything needs to be a disaster in order for a group to move. I realize you’re not a big fan of the steppe hypothesis as it relates to the spread of J2b L283 further west into Pannonia and the Balkans. Starting around 4200BC there was a terrible freeze that impacted much of Europe and lasted, so I’ve read, possibly a couple of centuries. This may have adversely impacted the Cucuteni Trypillian people as well as other old Europe cultures that were heavily reliant on farming as a way of life. However, groups to the east of these old world groups may have been more resilient because they were pastoralists and moved with their animals. They would have had sustenance via milk from their animals and a plentiful supply of meat. These pastoralists would have moved east to west across the dry steppe eventually coming into
contact with old Europe groups who may have retreated further west due to loss of their crops and possibly the intrusion of these pastoralists from the east.

Additionally, there was also a lot of trade going on between the Balkans and the steppe stretching all the way across to the Caucasus. During all of this activity we see J2b L283 start to expand with several branches forming between about 4000 to 3500 BC. These were pre Yamnaya groups who, from the sounds of it, were very Yamnaya like based on their autosomal makeup (according to Davidski at Eurogenes).

The other point that’s worth mentioning: this Aegean ancestry component from Mokrin was the same in all the samples regardless of Y haplogroup. The Aegean ancestry would be the same as Anatolian Farmer (ANF) or Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry. It’s just that there is a lack of standardization amongst academics in genetic genealogy regarding terminology used to describe these different components. Most J2b L283 and R1b M269 samples from about 2000 BC found there in the Balkans and Pannonia typically have about 20/20 mix of EHG and CHG ancestry and roughly 60% EEF ancestry. This EEF ancestry is to be expected because that was the predominant ancestry component found throughout the Balkans prior to the arrival of steppe groups from the east.

The big news? They now have the oldest ever R1b M269 ever discovered from Smyadovo, Bulgaria. He belonged to the Karanovo Culture and is dated to around 4500 BC. This was an Old Europe group not associated with early IE expansions. And yet all these years later, we have a treasure trove of ancient L283s from across the Balkans, Pannonia…even Africa…but still not a single ancient Neolithic J2b L283. Yet the mere suggestion that it could have crossed the steppe still triggers grand mal seizures amongst some of the “know it alls” on line. Quite remarkable.

True but there is no diversity between J-L283 and j2b2 the tmrca goes straight from 9500ybp to 5400 ybp

But non J-L283 j2b2 goes
J-Y28235 branch
8400 to 7200 to 6400 to 3900 to 2700

J-Z2433 seems to have a big gap which maybe something similar happened to them
Goes from 7800 ybp to J-Z2449 7400ybp
To J-Y978 6200 ybp

To either J-Y82214 at 4200 ybp

Or J-Z8316 6100 ybp to J-Y960 3000 ybp
Ect ect
But you get the idea. It has much steadier tmrca between clades where as j2b2 at tmrca 9500 ybp goes straight to 5400 ybp.

Its a big gap with no diversity between them. So where did they all go?

I believe it had to be bottlenecked on a island and then something happened. If it wasn't on a island some kind of bad event still happened for the a large amount of diversity to be lost about 6800 to 5400 ybp.

The R1b m269 probably came through the lower pontic through bythnia into bulgaria if it came from the steppe. But I think J-L283 was always in the medditernean but it was mostly bottle necked after sea levels rose again in the medditernean 10000 years ago.
Theres a severe lack of non J-L283 j2b2 european samples. But plenty of west asian ones.

 

[Polska]

Could you please elaborate?

I’ll have to find the blog entry from Davidski w/ his commentary about the area around the NW Black Sea region already being Yamnaya like around 4000 BC. To be clear, I have no idea if these early branches have anything to do with this. It’s just that there was a lot of activity in that area of Europe during that time period. Z615 matches up with Yamnaya, the other branches predate traditional Yamnaya, around 3300 BC. This is a unique pattern. FTDNA has readjusted their estimates, FYI. These screenshots are from their previous update, fwiw.

 

[Polska]

True but there is no diversity between J-L283 and j2b2 the tmrca goes straight from 9500ybp to 5400 ybp

But non J-L283 j2b2 goes
J-Y28235 branch
8400 to 7200 to 6400 to 3900 to 2700

J-Z2433 seems to have a big gap which maybe something similar happened to them
Goes from 7800 ybp to J-Z2449 7400ybp
To J-Y978 6200 ybp

To either J-Y82214 at 4200 ybp

Or J-Z8316 6100 ybp to J-Y960 3000 ybp
Ect ect
But you get the idea. It has much steadier tmrca between clades where as j2b2 at tmrca 9500 ybp goes straight to 5400 ybp.

Its a big gap with no diversity between them. So where did they all go?

I believe it had to be bottlenecked on a island and then something happened. If it wasn't on a island some kind of bad event still happened for the a large amount of diversity to be lost about 6800 to 5400 ybp.

The R1b m269 probably came through the lower pontic through bythnia into bulgaria if it came from the steppe. But I think J-L283 was always in the medditernean but it was mostly bottle necked after sea levels rose again in the medditernean 10000 years ago.
Theres a severe lack of non J-L283 j2b2 european samples. But plenty of west asian ones.

If you think J2b L283 is bad, take a look at R1b M269. Which island were they on?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/

 

[Archetype0ne]

I’ll have to find the blog entry from Davidski w/ his commentary about the area around the NW Black Sea region already being Yamnaya like around 4000 BC. To be clear, I have no idea if these early branches have anything to do with this. It’s just that there was a lot of activity in that area of Europe during that time period. Z615 matches up with Yamnaya, the other branches predate traditional Yamnaya, around 3300 BC. This is a unique pattern. FTDNA has readjusted their estimates, FYI. These screenshots are from their previous update, fwiw.

View attachment 13599

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Thanks. Was just wondering if there was rumors as to the Moldovan samples autosomal makeup.

 

[Polska]

Thanks. Was just wondering if there was rumors as to the Moldovan samples autosomal makeup.

It’s a bit of a head scratcher because that Henry Shephard, who was one of the authors from the Southern Arc study, explicitly mentions that bone samples were sent from Purcari, Moldova and Giurgiulesti, Moldova to Harvard’s Reich Lab for sequencing to be included in that study. These are very high profile burials. Purcari is a Usatovo burial dating back to 3500 BC. Skeleton was about 2.15 meters tall. Giurgiulesti is thought to be Suvorovo Novodanilovka. Family of 5, kurgan, high status burial, with possible sacrifice of the wife/mother. Dates to about 4100/4200 BC. These skeletons were more gracile in appearance, so possibly admixed with Old Europe groups.

 

[Archetype0ne]

It’s a bit of a head scratcher because that Henry Shephard, who was one of the authors from the Southern Arc study, explicitly mentions that bone samples were sent from Purcari, Moldova and Giurgiulesti, Moldova to Harvard’s Reich Lab for sequencing to be included in that study. These are very high profile burials. Purcari is a Usatovo burial dating back to 3500 BC. Skeleton was about 2.15 meters tall. Giurgiulesti is thought to be Suvorovo Novodanilovka. Family of 5, kurgan, high status burial, with possible sacrifice of the wife/mother. Dates to about 4100/4200 BC. These skeletons were more gracile in appearance, so possibly admixed with Old Europe groups.

Intriguing, thanks. Likely set aside for future studies.

 

[Wanderer]

If you think J2b L283 is bad, take a look at R1b M269. Which island were they on?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/

They look like they got f'd pretty hard too.
Maybe they were on the same island with J-L283.
Edit: maybe a different island. Maybe an island in the caspian sea for r1b m269
Or the black sea. Or agean sea close to the bridge between bulgaria and turkey

 

[Wanderer]

True but there is no diversity between J-L283 and j2b2 the tmrca goes straight from 9500ybp to 5400 ybp

But non J-L283 j2b2 goes
J-Y28235 branch
8400 to 7200 to 6400 to 3900 to 2700

J-Z2433 seems to have a big gap which maybe something similar happened to them
Goes from 7800 ybp to J-Z2449 7400ybp
To J-Y978 6200 ybp

To either J-Y82214 at 4200 ybp

Or J-Z8316 6100 ybp to J-Y960 3000 ybp
Ect ect
But you get the idea. It has much steadier tmrca between clades where as j2b2 at tmrca 9500 ybp goes straight to 5400 ybp.

Its a big gap with no diversity between them. So where did they all go?

I believe it had to be bottlenecked on a island and then something happened. If it wasn't on a island some kind of bad event still happened for the a large amount of diversity to be lost about 6800 to 5400 ybp.

The R1b m269 probably came through the lower pontic through bythnia into bulgaria if it came from the steppe. But I think J-L283 was always in the medditernean but it was mostly bottle necked after sea levels rose again in the medditernean 10000 years ago.
Theres a severe lack of non J-L283 j2b2 european samples. But plenty of west asian ones.

Another dilema that J-L283 being concluded from the steppe is that steppe peoples spread ALL over europe. Not just into the adriatic and italian peninsula. Yet 0 ancient pre roman J-L283 anywhere else. If it came from steppe we should see preroman J-L283 in other places. It doesnt have to be 2000BC. It could even be 1000 bc 1500bc but we see none of that. Not even 700 bc

I feel like people are erroneously linking J-L283 with steppe expansion when J-L283 is obviously confined to the adriatic, italy, balkans and central medditernean islands based on what we have, sardinia with a sample found within corsica.
But they attribute mok 15 with steppe even it has more aegean. Well maybe J-L283 had aegean ancestry before mok 15.

The only sample is maybe KDC001 but its even younger then Mok15.

Then the only other J-L283 near that one is more south away from the Volga Ural. So it seams weird to attribute this as a steppe migration from north into central europe given there is no samples in north eastern / northern or central europe. They are all in areas close to the medditernean. Mok 15 is bordering romania in the balkans. Its not even in really close to central europe really. Its not in germany if czhechia or southern poland.

 

[Wanderer]

Interesting. Maybe I really was on to something about my Ydna.

 

[torzio]

Interesting. Maybe I really was on to something about my Ydna.

Carthage lasted from 810BC to 146BC ...........they controlled western sicily and Sardinia ..............looks like your link most likely is from one of these 2 italian islands

 

[Polska]

Interesting. Maybe I really was on to something about my Ydna.

Question: Do you believe that Y DNA and autosomal DNA are the same thing?

FYI, this guy is J1a CTS463. Do you belong to this lineage now?

 

[Wanderer]

Question: Do you believe that Y DNA and autosomal DNA are the same thing?

FYI, this guy is J1a CTS463. Do you belong to this lineage now?

No. But I shared dna with a punic sardinian
I missread the haplogroup tbh also

 

[mount123]

Maros culture J-L283 is north with heavy agean ancestry at 55 percent. I dont believe that they necessarily came from north but I believe that they arrived on the adriatic shore they spread north.
We have 4 sardinian J-L283 -z615 clades which is strange and no younger clades in terms of ancient samples it looks like. Even most of the non ancient sardinian samples are -615.
And one J-BY161113 that is 615 positive is a very basal offshoot of of a croatian J-Z38240 from close to 1500 BC

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

The croatian also has a decendant in bari Italy J-FT273311*
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT273311*/


And you have one in cosenza italy which is closer to sardinia which is also diverging from a croatian
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT366875/
Are both basal z597 clades

The ones in firenze and lukka are not far from each other which are basal z585
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT289318/
But all the other basal italian z585 are sardinian

Ancient very basal J-L283 trend
We have ancient samples not far from the paeonian plains.
They are right behind the palegonian mountains. Between both paenonians and dardania. Or maybe the mountains are called mount mount korab?

So you see the maros culture is actually way more north then where paenonian tribes were but the majority of J-L283 are south by the adriatic. And we have some J-L283 at 6th century BC close to the Paeonian tribes and dardanians. So its not a co incident that we also have macadonian army J-L283 decendants in the middle east and one in india

We already have Paeonian samples from Ulanci, Mavrovo and the surroundings they are patrilinealy and autosomally distinct and the archeology of Ulanci proves derived parallels from Paracsin and as it seems also Brnjica. They essentially migrated from the Central Balkans southwards.

The Pelasgians and the pre-Greek Aegean Neolithics have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians.

Maros was clearly no "expansion spot" for J2b-L283 but rather an area where there was minor J2b-L283 influence. J2b-L283 is best positioned in Proto-Illyrian EBA Cetina and not EBA Maros, this is clear cut by archeogenetic records. You seem to have a history of insisting on these kind of baseless theories (and others as I have seen from earlier posts of yours).

 

[Wanderer]

We already have Paeonian samples from Ulanci, Mavrovo and the surroundings they are patrilinealy and autosomally distinct and the archeology of Ulanci proves derived parallels from Paracsin and as it seems also Brnjica. They essentially migrated from the Central Balkans southwards.

The Pelasgians and the pre-Greek Aegean Neolithics have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians.

Maros was clearly no "expansion spot" for J2b-L283 but rather an area where there was minor J2b-L283 influence. J2b-L283 is best positioned in Proto-Illyrian EBA Cetina and not EBA Maros, this is clear cut by archeogenetic records. You seem to have a history of insisting on these kind of baseless theories (and others as I have seen from earlier posts of yours).

Autosomally mok 15 is closer to neolithic Agean yet you want to make arguments based on autosomal dna with paeonian samples.

Also I never said J2b-L283 is best positioned maros. I never even said Maros has expansion spots. It just migrated to there from south.
I clearly said before I believe it landed in the adriatic and then migrated north before. Toward italian peninsula and possibly east. And is related to sardinians. you also have samples at kukes which is close to north Macadonia around 550 BC.

I believe its from Neolithic Agean or what Migration path you think it took to get to croatia? The steppe through central europe and then south?
Are you going to argue then maros has no expansion spots? But believe J-L283 came more north all the way down?