J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[mount123]

It might infer that etruscans may be related to proto illyrians.
Don't know if albanian language is related to etruscan or not but the fact that J-L283 would be in both populations infers that they have common origins.

For the sake of the gods Wanderer, the Etruscans have nothing to do with Proto-Illyrians at all. There is minor J2b-L283 in Etruscans, subclades that trace their ultimate origin to the East Adriatic, as can be seen from clearly older samples from the Western Balkans.

 

[Wanderer]

For the sake of the gods Wanderer, the Etruscans have nothing to do with Proto-Illyrians at all. There is minor J2b-L283 in Etruscans, subclades that trace their ultimate origin to the East Adriatic, as can be seen from clearly older samples from the Western Balkans.

If those etruscans have J-L283 then its likely illyrian or proto illyrian origin of etruscan. They probably have other origins too besides illyrian related ones, doesnt nullify their proto illyrian or illyrian one. Just as you said the more ancient remains of J-L283 are found in the west balkans in proto illyrian and illyrian territory.

 

[Wanderer]

Also pelasgians are just a reference to indigenous peoples of the balkans before greek arrival. More specifically the adriatic. So illyrians are a subgroup of pelasgic people but greeks just grouped many different pelasgian peoples as illyrians because the way they percieved their cultures as similar.

The name Pelasgians (Ancient Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí, singular: Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by classical Greek writers to refer either to the predecessors of the Greeks,[1][2] or to all the inhabitants of Greece before the emergence or arrival of the Greeks. In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[3]

It just says adriatic but we know the indigenous peoples of the adriatic were also referred as illyrians and illyrians were also including other people outside the adriatic like dardanians.

 

[mount123]

If those etruscans have J-L283 then its likely illyrian or proto illyrian origin of etruscan. They probably have other origins too besides illyrian related ones, doesnt nullify their proto illyrian or illyrian one. Just as you said the more ancient remains of J-L283 are found in the west balkans in proto illyrian and illyrian territory.

Well yes, those lineages trace their ultimate origin to older samples from the East Adriatic. It just tells us what we have seen from ancient data that firstly, highly likely mediated by Proto-Illyrian Cetina/Dinaric expansions, J2b-L283 spread into the West Adriatic and Central Mediterranean. Also, find it truly fascinating how far these guys went, even popping up in North Africa, considering how your own patrilineal story came about is pretty cool.

 

[mount123]

Also pelasgians are just a reference to indigenous peoples of the balkans before greek arrival. More specifically the adriatic. So illyrians are a subgroup of pelasgic people but greeks just grouped many different pelasgian peoples as illyrians because the way they percieved their cultures as similar.



It just says adriatic but we know the indigenous peoples of the adriatic were also referred as illyrians and illyrians were also including other people outside the adriatic like dardanians.

The Aegean sea not the Adriatic. And no they have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians at all.

 

[Wanderer]

The Aegean sea not the Adriatic. And no they have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians at all.

You're right. I miss read.
It says agean.
I wonder if ancient J-L283 were to be found in the agean in the future though. They find them in the islands near italy. Maybe their would be some in colcyra by the adriatic?
Is their ancient agean dna samples between 1500BC and 500 BC?
I wonder what they look like in terms of Y dna. Not just crete. But i mean the other islands like salamis, lemnos, naxos ect.

 

[Olti27]

Epidamn was founded by a barbarian (non greek) king called Epidamnus and the port was erected by his nephew Dyrrachus. The Greeks came later as colonist for trade thats why they never dwelled inland.
The Taulanti clearly spoke some a form of proto albanian as attested by their name Taulantis -> Dallandyshe (swallow), more over if they came from montenegro where we find another toponym Oulkinion/Ulqin from albanian ulk(wolf).
As much as you don't seem to like it Dardanians were considered Illyrians.

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

Since we've established that J-L283 is proto-Illyrian. We should now move on to deciphering which cultures/tribes they came from before they arrived to the Adriatic such as the Maros culture and the migration route from the steppe

 

[Pax Augusta]

Since we've established that J-L283 is proto-Illyrian. We should now move on to deciphering which cultures/tribes they came from before they came to Illyria such as the Maros culture and the migration route from the steppe

J-L283 Z582 * L283 * Z612+56 SNPs formed 9700 ybp, TMRCA 5500 ybp

https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/

So, can we talk about Proto-Ilyrian as early as 10,000 years ago?

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

J-L283 Z582 * L283 * Z612+56 SNPs formed 9700 ybp, TMRCA 5500 ybp

https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/

So, can we talk about Proto-Illyrian as early as 10,000 years ago?

Not sure what you mean by this can you rephrase what your saying please.

My point is that these Illyrians weren't always in Illyria and I thought we should move on to figuring out which J-L283 group migration they derived from, and then continue the process until we decipher the J-L283 origin point as we trace back the tribes and cultures.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Not sure what you mean by this can you rephrase what your saying please.

My point is that these Illyrians weren't always in Illyria and I thought we should move on to figuring out which J-L283 group migration they derived from, and then continue the process until we decipher the J-L283 origin point as we trace back the tribes and cultures.

This reasoning of yours would be completely rejected by archaeologists and anthropologists.

 

[enter_tain]

J-L283 is non-existent in the Balkans during the Neolithic, and then suddenly shows up in the northwest Balkans during the Bronze Age along with R1b. Obviously, they migrated down from Central Europe during the Middle Bronze Age. This is why I don't like Lazaridis' explanation of Albanian coming with early Yamna expansions into the Balkans. Those are likely IE dead-ends. Albanian has countless common features with Germanic and Balto-Slavic, that the proto-populations must have bordered at some point.

That being said, not every Italian J2B2-L283 is "Illyrian". The Messapic ones, sure, but I highly doubt the Sardinian ones have anything to do with Illyrians. The Proto-Italic people must have some of this when they migrated down to Italy.

 

[mount123]

That being said, not every Italian J2B2-L283 is "Illyrian". The Messapic ones, sure, but I highly doubt the Sardinian ones have anything to do with Illyrians. The Proto-Italic people must have some of this when they migrated down to Italy.

From the Southern Arc paper: "​J-Z600, the parent node of J-Z585, includes four additional individuals, one of which is from Croatia, and three of which are from the Late Bronze Age Nuragic culture in the island of Sardinia,(20, 453) thus suggesting that this culture included individuals of Bronze Age Western Balkan origin (these might have Italian intermediaries, but we do not detect any J-Z600 in mainland Italy prior to the aforementioned Iron Age sample from Rome)."

 

[Johane Derite]

J-L283 is non-existent in the Balkans during the Neolithic, and then suddenly shows up in the northwest Balkans during the Bronze Age along with R1b. Obviously, they migrated down from Central Europe during the Middle Bronze Age. This is why I don't like Lazaridis' explanation of Albanian coming with early Yamna expansions into the Balkans. Those are likely IE dead-ends. Albanian has countless common features with Germanic and Balto-Slavic, that the proto-populations must have bordered at some point.

That being said, not every Italian J2B2-L283 is "Illyrian". The Messapic ones, sure, but I highly doubt the Sardinian ones have anything to do with Illyrians. The Proto-Italic people must have some of this when they migrated down to Italy.

Lol, now its clear why you kept trying to force that Germanic-Albanian branch that no linguists support.

 

[enter_tain]

From the Southern Arc paper: "​J-Z600, the parent node of J-Z585, includes four additional individuals, one of which is from Croatia, and three of which are from the Late Bronze Age Nuragic culture in the island of Sardinia,(20, 453) thus suggesting that this culture included individuals of Bronze Age Western Balkan origin (these might have Italian intermediaries, but we do not detect any J-Z600 in mainland Italy prior to the aforementioned Iron Age sample from Rome)."

Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Italy is a big place.

 

[enter_tain]

Lol, now its clear why you kept trying to force that Germanic-Albanian branch that no linguists support.

I literally showed you 2 independent papers. It's not my fault you cried and don't want to accept evidence.

 

[mount123]

Since we've established that J-L283 is proto-Illyrian. We should now move on to deciphering which cultures/tribes they came from before they arrived to the Adriatic such as the Maros culture and the migration route from the steppe

We will eventually see. There have been rumors about J2b-L283 presence during Copper Age in the Western Steppe roughly 6000+ ybp. Hunter has also talked about this. I also heard of other "surprises". Maros is important but also looks like a dead end and the oldest samples are now from EBA Cetina with the earliest J2b-L283 sample dated at 2500 BCE.

I think the distribution of the subclades within Proto-Illyrian EBA Cetina, its successor Dinaric culture and lastly the IA Illyrian distribution is also interesting to investigate, considering that there has been quite a lot of progress in this regard.

 

[enter_tain]

I literally showed you 2 independent papers. It's not my fault you cried and don't want to accept evidence.

And btw, here's Orel in addition to the papers I linked

"Common Germanic-Balto-Slavic isoglosses with Albanian are fairly numerous. Quite a few of them are connected with wood or objects made of wood."

nO lIngUisTs sUpPoRt iT though.

 

[mount123]

Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Italy is a big place.

You obviously didn't get the essence with "Italian intermediaries". With "Italian intermediaries" they mean that albeit their ultimate origin can be traced to the Western Balkans there is a high possibility of finding samples within mainland Italy, who would be the secondary source whilst the East Adriatic the ultimate source. Also, they address one specific subclade, since we already have ancient J2b-L283 samples from mainland Italy, that in phylogeny trace their ancestry to the Western Balkans/ are related.

 

[1337_]

J-L283 is non-existent in the Balkans during the Neolithic, and then suddenly shows up in the northwest Balkans during the Bronze Age along with R1b. Obviously, they migrated down from Central Europe during the Middle Bronze Age. This is why I don't like Lazaridis' explanation of Albanian coming with early Yamna expansions into the Balkans. Those are likely IE dead-ends. Albanian has countless common features with Germanic and Balto-Slavic, that the proto-populations must have bordered at some point.

That being said, not every Italian J2B2-L283 is "Illyrian". The Messapic ones, sure, but I highly doubt the Sardinian ones have anything to do with Illyrians. The Proto-Italic people must have some of this when they migrated down to Italy.

I agree with this. It's also possible Albanian is combination of both ? Weren't like most of the J2b2-L283 found from Late Bronze Age and Iron Age ? What do you think about Vucedol ?

Following the Baden culture, another wave of possible Indo-European speakers came to the banks of the Danube. One of the major places they occupied is present-day Vučedol, located six kilometers downstream from the town of Vukovar, Croatia. It is estimated that the site had once been home to about 3,000 inhabitants, making it one of the largest and most important European centers of its time. According to Bogdan Brukner, proto-Illyrians descended from this wave of Indo-European settlers

Baden culture came from Corded Ware ?