J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Archetype0ne]

I generally agree with this map, but I don't think J-L283 was that far north. IMO, it likely migrated around the northern shores of the Black Sea. As previously reported here, the new Armenian J-L283* is actually negative for ~7 SNPs at current J-L283 level, so the split with the European branches, and the TMRCA of J-L283, should be around 6000 ybp. This makes it very likely that it migrated to Europe sometime after 6000 ybp, but no later than 4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA). And it's possible that it expanded into the Balkans/Italy independently from an R1b clade, perhaps even preceding it. To me the J-Z600 branch, and more specifically J-Z597, seems pretty Western Balkan/Adriatic, so it was probably already in the region at the time of its TMRCA. Some argue that YFull ages can be around 15% underestimated, under which scenario the J-Z597 TMRCA should be ~5000 ybp. These Early Bronze Age Tumuli from Montenegro are very interesting. I hope they can eventually get aDNA. If not some R1b-M269 clade, J-L283 (J-Z597?) would be my next best guess: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html?m=1

Just Trojet being the GOAT.

 

[Archetype0ne]

That is some excellent news


An yes, my impression has been that Dinaric/Posusje culture is essentially a late Cetina culture variant. Two years ago, after I4331 find in MBA Dalmatia, I guessed these specific tumuli would likely produce J-L283.

I4331 1618-1517 calBCE (3305±20 BP, PSUAMS-2257) (J-Z38240)
I4332 1613-1508 calBCE (3290±20 BP, PSUAMS-2258)


These two individuals belong to Cetina culture sites. The authors of the study consider them Cetina related because there is no actual qualitative interval between Late Cetina and their era.


In my opinion, Dinaric-Posušje is better to be seen as the Dalmatian hinterland equivalent of Cetina and not as a separate culture as there is a clear overlap and continuity between them.






One thing which can be shared is that the Velika/Mala Gruda Cetina culture tumuli in Montenegro will be J-L283 so the connection between Cetina and J-L283 is more than certain at this point. I don't necessarily exclude other haplogroups from the spread of Cetina.

This is actually huge news, isnt Velika/Mala Gruda dated to 2-3k BC?

So who was buried in these tumuluses? The archaeologists admit that despite all the modern procedures, analysis and equipment used it is "difficult to understand who built the Mala and Velika Gruda burials. This is because there is at present so little knowledge about what was going on in the Southwestern Balkans during the time when these tumuluses were built. Basically the problem is that the way these tumuluses were built, the way they were positioned in the low lying landscape as well as some of the burial rite details have no parallels in the Mediterranean basin except in a small area of Montenegro and Northern Albania. The first next similar late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burial is found in the steppe of the Yamna culture homeland....

Archaeological investigation of the Mala Gruda tumulus was performed during the period 1970 - 1971. The tumulus was damaged during the First World War, when Austrian army built a bunker on top of it. The tumulus height in the middle is about 4 meters and the diameter is about 20 meters. Originally it was proposed that the tumulus dated to the period 1900 to 1800 BC. Howevere the latest dating pushes the date when this tumulus was built almost 1000 years back into the past to the period between 2800 to 2700 BC.

Lock rings are a type of jewelry from Bronze Age Europe. They are made from gold or bronze and are penannular, providing a slot that is thought to have been used for attaching them as earrings or as hair ornaments. Ireland was a centre of production in the British Isles though rings were made and used across the continent, notably by the Unetice culture of central Europe. But these lock rings from Mala Gruda tumulus predate all the examples from northern Europe by many centuries and millenniums.


The only other lock rings from the late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) period which are similar to the lock rings from Mala gruda tumulus were found in Velika Gruda tumulus and in Gruda Boljevića tumulus, which is even older than the Velika and Mala gruda tumuluses. I will write about the Gruda Boljevića tumulus in my next post. Velika gruda tumulus also had lock rings of the type found in the Lefkas (Leukas) cemetary. But these Lefkas type rings are much simpler than the Mala Gruda type rings, and look like an inferior quality imitation of the Mala Gruda type lock rings. Here are the Lefkas type lock rings from Lefkas cemetary.

 

[mount123]

Radiocarbon dating of the samples will determine their age, as wood/or stone samples etc. from archeological sites don't have to coincide with the dating of human remains from the same site.

However, since these are indeed Cetina tumuli and given that it is J2b-L283 I think it is kind of safe to say that they should be from EBA. Other than that, what we can safely say by this point, is that Bronze Age Dinaric/Posusje culture samples will largely be J2b-L283 and that Proto-Illyrian culture obviously did not fall from the skye all of a sudden.

Huge news of course. And also not really surprising, given Trojet's background, that his intuition was right, yet again.

 

[Riverman]

Crucial for the J-L283 Illyrians is the development of their signature, the collective clan tumuli, which, as a rule, used only inhumation. Therefore such a find could be very interesting indeed, even though they have a different character and the dating of the site is probably questionable too. The potential Vucedol-Caucasian connection is, especially concerning J-L283, interesting:

Velika Gruda and Mala Gruda tumuluses are only 270 meters away from each other. Mala Gruda is a single phase burial tumulus and has only a late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) tumb. Velika Gruda is a multi phase burial which has late Copper age (Early Bronze age), Iron age and Medieval burials. The late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burial from Velika Gruda is equivalent to the late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burial from Mala Gruda. These were rich princely graves, full of well made and decorated ceramics and metal objects made from silver, gold and copper alloys. The archaeologists who excavated these burials postulated that the people who were buried inside the Velika and Mala Gruda late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burials were involved in trades between the Balkan Hinterland and Southern Italy and probably the rest of the Mediterranean.

So who was buried in these tumuluses? The archaeologists admit that despite all the modern procedures, analysis and equipment used it is "difficult to understand who built the Mala and Velika Gruda burials. This is because there is at present so little knowledge about what was going on in the Southwestern Balkans during the time when these tumuluses were built. Basically the problem is that the way these tumuluses were built, the way they were positioned in the low lying landscape as well as some of the burial rite details have no parallels in the Mediterranean basin except in a small area of Montenegro and Northern Albania. The first next similar late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burial is found in the steppe of the Yamna culture homeland....

In the past when it was believed that Mala and Velika Grida tumuluses were build at the beginning of the second millennium bc, it was proposed that the culture which built these Montenegrian tumuluses was influenced by late phases of Vučedol culture. But now that we know that Velika and Mala Gruda tumuluses were contemporary with the early period of the Vučedol culture things become much more complicated and confusing.

It is assumed that the earliest shaft-hole axes were developed in the the north Caucasus by the Maikop culture sometime between 3500 and 3128 BC.

The problem is that this dating is based on the fact that their shape is generally comparable to axes or moulds for axes from the northern Caucasus and Koban region, like the mold from Lebedi or from the Kura-Araxes Culture which were dated to that period. But the type is so simply shaped that even comparisons to much later axes are possible, and this makes the dating of the Baniabic type axes uncertain. The southeast European types of Dumbrăvioara, Izvoarele, Darabani and Kozarac have short shaft tubes and can be grouped to the second morphological trend. In some cases their tubes are faceted or ribbed. This feature is also found on one axe from the hoard of Stublo (Steblivka) in the western Ukraine. These types can be dated mainly to the earlier half of the third millennium BC.... "

https://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html

 

[Archetype0ne]

double posted while trying to edit - deleted

 

[Archetype0ne]

Yes, the oldest layers from these tumuluses seem to be archeologically dated to ~2700 BCE. I'm not sure if there is any actual radiocarbon data, which is more reliable. I suppose the upcoming samples are radiocarbon dated, and so we'll have to wait and see what it actually says, unless there is more details that can be shared. What seems certain is these samples are archeologically identified as EBA Cetina Culture. There is some interesting information here.

For those who understand Montenegrin/South Slavic languages, there is also this fairly recent documentary about these tumuluses. And they do mention there is samples for DNA analysis at Harvard


https://youtu.be/fwpeDIY9qYM

Anyone else notice the pattern?


Here are some reposts of mine from Anthro:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne
I meant it more relating to earlier comments by different fora users that L283 had to come to Albania from the North, when in my mind coming from a probably Yamnaya context akin to Maros other finds will be further in the hinterland. And futhermore they dont necesarily have to have come to Albania from Croatia, in Albania in fact they might predate the ones in Croatia. Hence a North to South move along the Adriatic is not a foregone conlusion.

The golden dagger:

The dagger is leaf shaped with straight edges and rounded top. It has a short tong for attaching it to the handle and a triple profiled central ridge. Similar daggers are found in Anatolia dating to the mid 3rd millennium bc. Her is the Mala Gruda dagger and its Anatolian comparisons:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne
I meant it more relating to earlier comments by different fora users that L283 had to come to Albania from the North, when in my mind coming from a probably Yamnaya context akin to Maros other finds will be further in the hinterland. And futhermore they dont necesarily have to have come to Albania from Croatia, in Albania in fact they might predate the ones in Croatia. Hence a North to South move along the Adriatic is not a foregone conlusion.






https://www.academia.edu/32957386/Th...driatic_region


What haplogroup do you think will be found in Shtoj?
PS: I am coming across these articles just randomly following tangents from various sources talking about the Velika/Mala Gruda sites.

2. Tumulus 6 in Shtoj
In the plain of the village Shtoj that extends immediately to the east of Lake Skadar and to the north of Skadar (Fig. 1,1) ca. 160 tumuli were lebit), central Adriatic (Dalmatia) and southern Adriatic documented, eleven of which were excavated in 1980-1990.3 the excavations brought forth some very interesting results that were partially published on several occasions, but are slightly contradictory. It was only with the comprehensive publication presented in 2012 that detailed considerations and investigations of the tumuli became possible.4 Tumuli 6 and 10, in which burial began in the Early Bronze Age, turned out to be the earliest among those excavated, and also most likely represent the earliest such monuments along the Adriatic.

---

 

[mount123]

What interests me is what the general consensus on Veliki Vanik is. Was it rather a Dinaric/Posusje site or just as Gudnja for example also attested to be Cetina? The same would go for Velim-Kosa.

In case some forgot there was a low coverage J2b-L283 from Velim-Kosa whose dating was kind of a mish-mash of placements of time frames as in MBA_LBA_EIA something along those lines (but then nearly 1000 BCE) quite confusing.

 

[mount123]

What interests me is what the general consensus on Veliki Vanik is. Was it rather a Dinaric/Posusje site or just as Gudnja for example also attested to be Cetina? The same would go for Velim-Kosa.

In case some forgot there was a low coverage J2b-L283 from Velim-Kosa whose dating was kind of a mish-mash of placements of time frames as in MBA_LBA_EIA something along those lines (but then nearly 1000 BCE) quite confusing.

Still haven't found any good sources that provide more quality information on this topic. It would be great if someone knowledgeable on Cetina culture and Dinaric (Posusje) culture could share some useful resources.

As mentioned before, my main area of ​​interest is whether sites like Veliki Vanik and Velim-Kosa are also Cetina sites alongside Bronze Age Dinaric (Posusje), and what is the relationship between the two. Additionally, what is the general archaeological consensus about the overlap in terms of time frame?

 

[Polska]

Still haven't found any good sources that provide more quality information on this topic. It would be great if someone knowledgeable on Cetina culture and Dinaric (Posusje) culture could share some useful resources.

As mentioned before, my main area of ​​interest is whether sites like Veliki Vanik and Velim-Kosa are also Cetina sites alongside Bronze Age Dinaric (Posusje), and what is the relationship between the two. Additionally, what is the general archaeological consensus about the overlap in terms of time frame?

Here are a couple links to studies…the second link I’ve seen posted either here or Anthrogenica (RIP) by Trojet. That’s probably the best article I’ve read to date, at least as it pertains to Cetina. In the first link, Pages 173-174 have an interesting couple paragraphs regarding the difficulty differentiating between Posusje and Cetina.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3460

https://www.zora.uzh.ch/id/eprint/155372/1/ZORA_NL_155372.pdf

 

[mount123]

Here are a couple links to studies…the second link I’ve seen posted either here or Anthrogenica (RIP) by Trojet. That’s probably the best article I’ve read to date, at least as it pertains to Cetina. In the first link, Pages 173-174 have an interesting couple paragraphs regarding the difficulty differentiating between Posusje and Cetina.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3460

https://www.zora.uzh.ch/id/eprint/155372/1/ZORA_NL_155372.pdf

Thank you!

 

[HolyGoose]

I am J2b2>L283>Z1043>FGC55778 originating from Luxembourg.

 

[mount123]

There are 5 new ancient J2b-L283 samples from the August 2022 study "The Anglo-Saxon migration and formation of the Early English Gene pool": https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB54899?show=reads (ENA-FIRST-PUBLIC:2022-08-08)

ADN001 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)

ADN005 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043 (xY32998,Y154639,Y29721,FGC58561,Y36972,Y129853,FT 131786,CTS11760,Y191359,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)

ADN009 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)

ADN010 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z8429>A25649>Y12007 (xY12000,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)

S20654 West Heslerton, Yorkshire, United Kingdom; Anglo-Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z638>Z1297 (xY27522,FT29003,Y32373,Y83688,CTS8364,Y166564,Y85 328,Y82184,Z8421)

 

[1337]

Interesting. From when is their time period ? Confirms an expansion from Germany, Switzerland and Austria into the Western Balkans ?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34436-Celts?p=653955#post653955

 

[mount123]

There are 5 new ancient J2b-L283 samples from the August 2022 study "The Anglo-Saxon migration and formation of the Early English Gene pool": https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB54899?show=reads (ENA-FIRST-PUBLIC:2022-08-08)

ADN001 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)

ADN005 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043 (xY32998,Y154639,Y29721,FGC58561,Y36972,Y129853,FT 131786,CTS11760,Y191359,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)

ADN009 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)

ADN010 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z8429>A25649>Y12007 (xY12000,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)

S20654 West Heslerton, Yorkshire, United Kingdom; Anglo-Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z638>Z1297 (xY27522,FT29003,Y32373,Y83688,CTS8364,Y166564,Y85 328,Y82184,Z8421)

"The history of the British Isles and Ireland is characterized by multiple periods of major cultural change, including the influential transformation after the end of Roman rule, which precipitated shifts in language, settlement patterns and material culture. The extent to which migration from continental Europe mediated these transitions is a matter of long-standing debate. Here we study genome-wide ancient DNA from 460 medieval northwestern Europeans – including 278 individuals from England – alongside archaeological data, to infer contemporary population dynamics. We identify a substantial increase of continental northern European ancestry in early medieval England, which is closely related to the early medieval and present-day inhabitants of Germany and Denmark, implying large-scale substantial migration across the North Sea into Britain during the Early Middle Ages."

 

[1337]

You think these were originally Celts from central Europe ?

 

[1337]

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne
I meant it more relating to earlier comments by different fora users that L283 had to come to Albania from the North, when in my mind coming from a probably Yamnaya context akin to Maros other finds will be further in the hinterland. And futhermore they dont necesarily have to have come to Albania from Croatia, in Albania in fact they might predate the ones in Croatia. Hence a North to South move along the Adriatic is not a foregone conlusion.

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne
I meant it more relating to earlier comments by different fora users that L283 had to come to Albania from the North, when in my mind coming from a probably Yamnaya context akin to Maros other finds will be further in the hinterland. And futhermore they dont necesarily have to have come to Albania from Croatia, in Albania in fact they might predate the ones in Croatia. Hence a North to South move along the Adriatic is not a foregone conlusion.

---

Why would J2b2-L283 specifically of come from Albania ? As far as I'm concerned, all the J2b2-L283 we have so far in the Balkans are mostly from the Iron Age/Bronze Age. If anything, if this Y-DNA spread with Indo-European speakers, or was picked up somewhere in Europe, it was in central Europe (maybe together with EV-13 and R1b-L23), from there it came into the Balkans, spread by Proto-Illyrians from the Hallstatt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture , Of course, it could of also been in the Balkans already and back migrated. But the fact it seems to have an Iron Age / Bronze Age expansion / bottle neck makes it unlikely.

R1b-L23 was a major IE marker so could of also come in different waves and the oldest R1b-L23 found in Croatia is far earlier than the J2b2 found and it was found in Vucedol which also some relate to Illyrians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture

 

[1337]

Of course some J2b2-L283, if it had come from the Steppes, could of also come directly from the Steppes or from Hungary and down to the Balkans. As did possibly some EV-13 and R1b-L23. Some could of course migrated north again. Anything is possible in this one big giant of a cluster ****.

 

[mount123]

There are many informative posts made by Trojet and others on this thread. It does not take much effort to pick the right information up. Besides that there is also a map of aDNA J2b-L283 samples with linked scientific papers.

I kindly ask you to stop derailing this thread with off topic correlation mish-mash "theories" that have absolutely no scientific basis. Spam posts as such are hindering to those who are interested in updates in regards to the threads topic.

 

[mount123]

There are 5 new ancient J2b-L283 samples from the August 2022 study "The Anglo-Saxon migration and formation of the Early English Gene pool": https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB54899?show=reads (ENA-FIRST-PUBLIC:2022-08-08)

ADN001 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)

ADN005 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043 (xY32998,Y154639,Y29721,FGC58561,Y36972,Y129853,FT 131786,CTS11760,Y191359,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)

ADN009 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)

ADN010 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z8429>A25649>Y12007 (xY12000,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)

S20654 West Heslerton, Yorkshire, United Kingdom; Anglo-Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z638>Z1297 (xY27522,FT29003,Y32373,Y83688,CTS8364,Y166564,Y85 328,Y82184,Z8421)

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

I see sample S20654 has three derived reads for Y37818 (G>T). So he should be more specifically J-Y21878 (xFT29003,Y32373,Y83688,CTS8364,Y166564,Y85328,Y82 184).


In other news, there is a new J-Z638 subclade at FTDNA, parallel to the more popular J-Z1297 and J-Y21045, namely J-FT31120, which contains samples from United Kingdom (YF019450 at YFull) and Switzerland with a TMRCA of ~4200 ybp. Then, each one of these are forming fairly recent subclades with unknown origin samples, which given the closeness, I suppose are within their respective regions. Considering the so far lack of Balkan samples within J-FT31120 and the high TMRCA, this would suggest J-Z638 was likely still in North Balkans area when it expanded. The currently oldest J-Z615 aDNA sample, which is upstream of J-Z638, comes from the very north of modern Serbia (MOK15; ~3950 ybp).

 

[1337]

There are many informative posts made by Trojet and others on this thread. It does not take much effort to pick the right information up. Besides that there is also a map of aDNA J2b-L283 samples with linked scientific papers.

I kindly ask you to stop derailing this thread with off topic correlation mish-mash "theories" that have absolutely no scientific basis. Spam posts as such are hindering to those who are interested in updates in regards to the threads topic.

Nobody is derailing anything you attention seeker.

In beginning our survey of Iron Age Indo-European peoples, it may be well to choose the earliest instance in which we can definitely identify a language with a culture and a racial entity. This is true of the so-called Hallstatt culture associated with the Illyrian branch of Indo-European speech. Although usually classified with Centum, Illyrian, like Tokharian B, belonged to an ancient form of Indo-European which perhaps antedated the clear segregation into Centum and Satem

- The Illyrians - Carleton Coon

Even that Matzinger guy supports this theory , as far as I'm concerned this theory still hasn't been disproven. Does not matter what it says on wiki.

From the new book on Illyrians by Matzinger & Lippert. Matzinger argues that Illyrian descended from the Indo-European "East Alpine Block

If this Y-DNA came with Indo-Europeans then it either came directly from the steppes together with some Dacians/Thacians and into the Balkans or from Central Europe / Hungary . If it's not IE then that's a different case.