J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

It blows my mind when people say things like, "Well Northern Illyrians had Celtic shields and Gaul/Celt admixture, so they can't be true Illyrians"
But they don't apply that logic to Southern Illyrians, or any other group (every group has influences from neighbors)
Southern Illyrians had Macedonian/Dorian shields, and probably had more Southern shifted Greek-like admixture.. so they must not be true Illyrians..
If Northern Illyrians can't be true Illyrians because they were influenced by Celts, then Southern Illyrians can't be true Illyrians either because they were influenced by Greeks! How insane does that sound? As if the ancestors of Albanians can't be anything because they were influenced by other groups... like every other people in Europe... Are Greeks not true Greeks because they were influenced by Thracians and Illyrians?
Where does one draw the line haha. Every group was influenced by their neighbors. Are Northern Italians not true Italians because they have Celtic admixture? No, they are true Italians, only the Albanian must have pure, isolated ancestors!
How can we apply it to south illyrians when we have like 1 sample and that 1 sample is right next to the liburnian border? Also, wasnt even this furthest southern sample heavily mixed with celtic?

Just remember that the true illyrians were below river revetka, once we get 3, 4, 5 samples below the region from 800BC-200BC we can say for sure the illyrians carried this and that line
 
Those are clearly Illyrian samples so that is not up for debate. No one cares what that internet persona thinks.

Why the hell would you expect South Illyrians to be Greek like in autosomal DNA?
I'm not saying "like a greek" I'm saying more shifted in that direction due to having more farmer DNA. Prior to Indo European invasions, Balkans was EEF heavy. Heavy farmer DNA pulls you closer to Greeks/Near East. The earliest Greeks, Minoans and Mycenaeans, were mostly farmer DNA.

Early IE people are northern shifted, because they didn't have much farmer DNA yet, they just arrived from the Steppe. After some generations of mixing with EEF people, the farmer genes increased. In Southern Europe, there were more farmers than in Northern Europe, which is why there's more farmer admixture in Southern Europeans compared to Northern Europeans, as well as more paternal farmer DNA surviving in the South too (G2a, I2, T, etc).

The earliest samples of J2b2 and E-V13 are northern shifted, as time goes on they get more Southern shifted.. from mixing with EEF people on their way down the Balkans

I would expect that if we get future samples from Bosnia/Montenegro/Albania/Macedonia they would be more southern shifted than the ones from Croatia Slovenia Hungary & Italy.
 
I'm not saying "like a greek" I'm saying more shifted in that direction due to having more farmer DNA. Prior to Indo European invasions, Balkans was EEF heavy. Heavy farmer DNA pulls you closer to Greeks/Near East. The earliest Greeks, Minoans and Mycenaeans, were mostly farmer DNA.
Early IE people are northern shifted, because they didn't have much farmer DNA yet, they just arrived from the Steppe. After some generations of mixing with EEF people, the farmer genes increased. In Southern Europe, there were more farmers than in Northern Europe, which is why there's more farmer admixture in Southern Europeans compared to Northern Europeans, as well as more paternal farmer DNA surviving in the South too (G2a, I2, T, etc).
The earliest samples of J2b2 and E-V13 are northern shifted, as time goes on they get more Southern shifted.. from mixing with EEF people on their way down the Balkans
I would expect that if we get future samples from Bosnia/Montenegro/Albania/Macedonia they would be more southern shifted than the ones from Croatia Slovenia Hungary & Italy.
They are northern shifted because they were found near the celts. Do you believe j2b l283 and v13 expanded with celtic admixture or do you believe they were already further south (and were less northern shifted) before moving up and receiving celtic input? The point is we have nearly almost zero south european y dna from bronze age and iron age except for a few j2a and g2 ancient greeks

Where do you put r1b z2103 in all of this and why is it still absent from bronze age and iron age samples?
 
I'm not saying "like a greek" I'm saying more shifted in that direction due to having more farmer DNA. Prior to Indo European invasions, Balkans was EEF heavy. Heavy farmer DNA pulls you closer to Greeks/Near East. The earliest Greeks, Minoans and Mycenaeans, were mostly farmer DNA.

The earliest samples of J2b2 and E-V13 are northern shifted, as time goes on they get more Southern shifted.. from mixing with EEF people on their way down the Balkans

I would expect that if we get future samples from Bosnia/Montenegro/Albania/Macedonia they would be more southern shifted than the ones from Croatia Slovenia Hungary & Italy.

The J2b-L283 samples form their own cluster.
 
They are northern shifted because they were found near the celts. Do you believe j2b l283 and v13 expanded with celtic admixture or do you believe they were already further south (and were less northern shifted) before moving up and receiving celtic input? The point is we have nearly almost zero south european y dna from bronze age and iron age except for a few j2a and g2 ancient greeks
Where do you put r1b z2103 in all of this and why is it still absent from bronze age and iron age samples?

The Adriatic Illyrian samples form their own cluster nothing "Celtic" about them. Also the Illyrian sample from Mathieson is also from South Dalmatia in Patterson et. al 2021 we have 2 samples from South Dalmatia which in total makes 3 already.

In regards to the latter: ever seen the IA Thracians data?
 
I can't vote more today, but the following post would had one if possible:

How can we apply it to south illyrians when we have like 1 sample and that 1 sample is right next to the liburnian border? Also, wasnt even this furthest southern sample heavily mixed with celtic?
Just remember that the true illyrians were below river revetka, once we get 3, 4, 5 samples below the region from 800BC-200BC we can say for sure the illyrians carried this and that line

This is indeed the way to go, collecting at least a bit of statistics before speaking.
And you are right to specify that it will tell which line were carried by this population.
Contrary to what many believe, it won't say what line aren't there.

I already mentionned it, but ancient DNA statistical depth is riddiculously small (maybe north Czechia with Patterson et al. 2021 can start to be considered having a reasonable coverage). The only things that can be really done is exclusion by presence in unrelated context.

Just excluding at 3 sigma* a clade with a 5% frequence requires ~150 samples (without finding one). We are far from close to such statistical depth in most the places/epoch.

*if someone don't know what it means, you can ask for details or not.

Then for southern Balkans, we have Albania with 1200 BCE diversity. This one is a given in southern Balkan by BA-Collapse.
When did it properly entered modern Albanian-lands is more tricky without ancient samples.
Likely this clade was on the adriatic coast (southern Croatia/Bosnia/Montenegro) by 1700 BCE (co-diffusion with Y15058) at worst and maybe as early as 2200 BE (Bell-Beaker/Cetina diffusion hypothesis).
Did this clade arrived early in Albania or did it finished to be pushed south by Bronze-Age-Collapse ? It is hard to say.
But the easier is to have this clade to arrive at the same time than the Patterson et al. 2021 Z1297+ sample.

Anyway, at that time it would be fallacious to speak of Illyrians, Illyrians are an IA-population.
Then, on the Illyrian context, Y21045 is without doubt fitting the bill.
 
Are you basing your wishful thinking on this map below?........good luck

I love how this "contours" are not even trying to consider Italian samples :LOL: or even the Hungarian one.
Without speaking of nearly half of the circled area having 0 ancient DNA coverage.

I'm also a bit puzzeld by the Z517 (J-Z515 or G-FT68976 ???) being located around Z638 :LOL: ... ok I'm joking, but the typo is funny in a propaganda map.

A more objective circling would have consisted of a Italy+western Balkan+Hungary/Austria border circle labelled Y15058 and then acknowledging some isolated samples inside/at the border of this diffusion area (with 1700 BCE diversity).




PS: A slightly more reasonable map :

J-Z38240.png


We can't barely say more, but from modern diversity, I would expect Y27522 in north-Italy (shifted toward France), Z8421 around Austria, and Y21045 around Albania.
Which would therefore favorise either co-migration of some Z638 with Z38240 (but Z638s didn't diversifies with the same intensity) or a Z638 wide area with a replacement by Z38240s.

Note how the 1700 BCE diversity is distributed (red-yellow-green no observed mixing yet) on a wide Area.
These expansion could have two explanations:
-Diffusion around 1700 BCE followed by in-situ founder effects around 1200 BCE.
-1200 BCE diffusion during BA-collapse.

Relation to Z638 diffusions possibilities :
If going for Z638 co-migration with Z38240 then, then Z38240 need to diffuse by 1700 BCE
If going for a Z38240 replacement, Z638 can predate Z38240 and be as early as 2200 BCE.
 
it is north of Dubrovnik
Are you basing your wishful thinking on this map below?........good luck

Pleraei


Pleraei are part of illyrian proper ...that is the non celtinized illyrians

 
I love how this "contours" are not even trying to consider Italian samples :LOL: or even the Hungarian one.
Without speaking of nearly half of the circled area having 0 ancient DNA coverage.

I'm also a bit puzzeld by the Z517 (J-Z515 or G-FT68976 ???) being located around Z638 :LOL: ... ok I'm joking, but the typo is funny in a propaganda map.

A more objective circling would have consisted of a Italy+western Balkan+Hungary/Austria border circle labelled Y15058 and then acknowledging some isolated samples inside/at the border of this diffusion area (with 1700 BCE diversity).




PS: A slightly more reasonable map :

J-Z38240.png


We can't barely say more, but from modern diversity, I would expect Y27522 in north-Italy (shifted toward France), Z8421 around Austria, and Y21045 around Albania.
Which would therefore favorise either co-migration of some Z638 with Z38240 (but Z638s didn't diversifies with the same intensity) or a Z638 wide area with a replacement by Z38240s.

Note how the 1700 BCE diversity is distributed (red-yellow-green no observed mixing yet) on a wide Area.
These expansion could have two explanations:
-Diffusion around 1700 BCE followed by in-situ founder effects around 1200 BCE.
-1200 BCE diffusion during BA-collapse.

Relation to Z638 diffusions possibilities :
If going for Z638 co-migration with Z38240 then, then Z38240 need to diffuse by 1700 BCE
If going for a Z38240 replacement, Z638 can predate Z38240 and be as early as 2200 BCE.


The Dauniians ones in Foggia Italy are part of the Iapodes



do you have numbers on them ?
 
Actually, you might be right on this one torzio, the confusion that Daunians came from South Albania comes from the fact that Matt Painted Pottery Culture which was present in Southern Italy, but if you take a look at this culture this started from somewhere in Central Greece and the phenomenon was spread to Macedonia, Thessaly then to Epirus and South Albania and eventually to Southern Italy.

I doubt this culture is represented by Daunians or Messapians (we still don't know if they were related), or if, it's probably foreign element which they acquired.
 
Pleraei are part of illyrian proper ...that is the non celtinized illyrians
Just about, yes-

"The Docleatae (Ancient Greek: Δοκλεᾶται, romanized: Dokleatai) were an Illyrian tribe that lived in what is now Montenegro. Their capital was Doclea[58] (or Dioclea), and they are called after the town. They had settled west of the Morača river, up to Montenegro's present-day borders with Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Docleatae were prominent for their cheese, which was exported to various Roman provinces within the Roman Empire.[59] They were composed of parts of the Taulantii, the Pleraei or Pyraei, Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, Labeatae[35] that came together after the Great Illyrian revolt. The Docleatae had 33 decuriae."

Could the pleraei be related to taulantii? They had a king called pleuratus

Anyway, plehra (plera) is a word in albanian that means trash. Probably unrelated but felt like bringing it up because kinda funny since a lot of illyrian "tribes" often fought each other
 
Actually, you might be right on this one torzio, the confusion that Daunians came from South Albania comes from the fact that Matt Painted Pottery Culture which was present in Southern Italy, but if you take a look at this culture this started from somewhere in Central Greece and the phenomenon was spread to Macedonia, Thessaly then to Epirus and South Albania and eventually to Southern Italy.

I doubt this culture is represented by Daunians or Messapians (we still don't know if they were related), or if, it's probably foreign element which they acquired.

Matt Painted Pottery seems to be associated with Doric.

We know the Messapic alphabet is an adaptation of the Tarantinian Greek alphabet.
 
Just about, yes-
"The Docleatae (Ancient Greek: Δοκλεᾶται, romanized: Dokleatai) were an Illyrian tribe that lived in what is now Montenegro. Their capital was Doclea[58] (or Dioclea), and they are called after the town. They had settled west of the Morača river, up to Montenegro's present-day borders with Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Docleatae were prominent for their cheese, which was exported to various Roman provinces within the Roman Empire.[59] They were composed of parts of the Taulantii, the Pleraei or Pyraei, Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, Labeatae[35] that came together after the Great Illyrian revolt. The Docleatae had 33 decuriae."
Could the pleraei be related to taulantii? They had a king called pleuratus
Anyway, plehra (plera) is a word in albanian that means trash. Probably unrelated but felt like bringing it up because kinda funny since a lot of illyrian "tribes" often fought each other


as per Pliny census on the illyrians and their involvement in the Great Illyrian revolt ....................southern Illyrian ( illyrian proper ) were NOT involved



Pleraei and Taulantii have nothing in common except they where not Celtinized ....................plus the Taulantii where brutally assaulted and overwhelmed my macedonians in 314 BC ......they basically, never really recovered
 
as per Pliny census on the illyrians and their involvement in the Great Illyrian revolt ....................southern Illyrian ( illyrian proper ) were NOT involved



Pleraei and Taulantii have nothing in common except they where not Celtinized ....................plus the Taulantii where brutally assaulted and overwhelmed my macedonians in 314 BC ......they basically, never really recovered

Looks like they did recover eventually and were given immunity by the romans along with many other south illyrian tribes -

"Livy (1st century BC) reports that following the victory of 167, the Roman Senate decided to give freedom to "Issenses et Taulantios, Dassaretiorum Pirustas, Rhizonitas, Olciniatas", rewarded because they abandoned the Illyrian kingdom of Gentius a little before his defeat. For a similar reason Daorsi too gained immunitas, while half of the tax had to be paid by "Scodrensibus et Dassarensibus et Selepitanis ceterisque Illyriis" ("the inhabitants of Scodra, Dassarenses and Seleptani, as well as by other Illyrians").[30] Some scholars have suggested that Livy's material follows exclusively Polybius (2nd century BC). However, it is contradicted by the fact that Lyvian texts reports Illyrian toponyms and ethnonyms principally located in the core of the Illyrian kingdom (Ardiaean–Labeatan dynasty), north of Via Egnatia, except for Taulantii and Dassaretii, a situation different from that of the 2nd century BC. An evident relation between the Pirustae and Dassaretii appears in the text, but the Pirustae are thought to have been located much further north of Dassaretii. This could be explained by the possibility that the Pirustae had various locations in different periods, by the existence of two tribes with the same name or similar names, or by an unknown and hypothetical expansion of the Dassaretii to the north."
 
I love how this "contours" are not even trying to consider Italian samples :LOL: or even the Hungarian one.

I made that "contour" before the Hungarian samples were dumped (and it doesn't include that region), and we have no idea what subclades are in Italy. They were low res. These are all samples of a certain time period (M-LBA/IA) and from 1 paper.

If you want something more specific check Hunter Provyn's map, but even that doesn't have the new samples.
 
plus the Taulantii where brutally assaulted and overwhelmed my macedonians in 314 BC ......they basically, never really recovered

?? The Taulanti drove Cassander out for good out of the Albanian region. It might have been Pyrrhus who lived amongst the Taulantians, that maybe absorbed them as part of Epirus.
 
?? The Taulanti drove Cassander out for good out of the Albanian region. It might have been Pyrrhus who lived amongst the Taulantians, that maybe absorbed them as part of Epirus.
I have read the macedonians severely weakened the taulantii and then bardhylis II (dardanian king) absorbed their state? Either way it looks like the taulantii recovered eventually and kept their name (according to Livy)?
 
I have read the macedonians severely weakened the taulantii and then bardhylis II (dardanian king) absorbed their state? Either way it looks like the taulantii recovered eventually and kept their name (according to Livy)?

The Taulants controlled a lot of territory. It's very possible that Dardanians took large parts of their north. They were allies after all. But I recall Pyrrhus brought a lot of Greek colonies in Albania under his control (plus he was adopted by Taulants).
 
?? The Taulanti drove Cassander out for good out of the Albanian region. It might have been Pyrrhus who lived amongst the Taulantians, that maybe absorbed them as part of Epirus.

And as an aside, the Greeks actually translated a sister/local tribe as "Khelidoni" meaning "Swallow men". This is why linguists related Taulantii with the Albanian word Dallandyshe (Swallow). (We don't know the exact form of the word, but some sound laws like t -> d, and l -> ll, happened later in Albanian).
 
Looks like they did recover eventually and were given immunity by the romans along with many other south illyrian tribes -
"Livy (1st century BC) reports that following the victory of 167, the Roman Senate decided to give freedom to "Issenses et Taulantios, Dassaretiorum Pirustas, Rhizonitas, Olciniatas", rewarded because they abandoned the Illyrian kingdom of Gentius a little before his defeat. For a similar reason Daorsi too gained immunitas, while half of the tax had to be paid by "Scodrensibus et Dassarensibus et Selepitanis ceterisque Illyriis" ("the inhabitants of Scodra, Dassarenses and Seleptani, as well as by other Illyrians").[30] Some scholars have suggested that Livy's material follows exclusively Polybius (2nd century BC). However, it is contradicted by the fact that Lyvian texts reports Illyrian toponyms and ethnonyms principally located in the core of the Illyrian kingdom (Ardiaean–Labeatan dynasty), north of Via Egnatia, except for Taulantii and Dassaretii, a situation different from that of the 2nd century BC. An evident relation between the Pirustae and Dassaretii appears in the text, but the Pirustae are thought to have been located much further north of Dassaretii. This could be explained by the possibility that the Pirustae had various locations in different periods, by the existence of two tribes with the same name or similar names, or by an unknown and hypothetical expansion of the Dassaretii to the north."


As per the Pliny census ..............the southern Illyrians ( illyrian proper ) make up 20.4% ( I did not include Pannonians ).................he does not include the Liburnians who revolted 10 years before and also does not include the Histrians who by that time where merged with the Venetic to make roman province number ten .................I would say the true percentage of Illyrian proper would be around 10%
 

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