J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Aspurg]

I agree, I'm just using the modern populations of the world as an example of how Y-DNA frequencies differ from region to region, and I imagine it wouldn't have been much more different in the ancient times. Some Illyrian regions might have more J2-L283, some more E-V13, and so on. What I'm kind of touching at is that we do not really have much data on the mainland Illyrians or the southern ones. Most of the samples we have are from coastal Dalmatia. This is why people like Riverman are so obsessed with making E-V13 fit into his Daco-Thracian frankenstein speculation, despite most Illyrian regions being completely untested, and I'd argue in fact the most important regions are not tested at all, such as Mat-Glasinac.

Just get into your head that E-V13 has nothing to do with the Glasinac-Mat culture as evidenced by all ancient DNA and as predicted by me long ago because Glasinac-Mat is deeply connected to the MBA Posušje culture which again shows two J2b2 samples of two different clades. Daunians are descended of Southern Illyrians and they do now show E-V13. Just the mere fact that almost all Illyrians are J-L283 and almost all Daco-Thracians are E-V13 is enough to blast worthless ramblings of so many internet Albanians into oblivion. The reason is the same as for I1 not being Celtic, or U152 not being Scandinavian.

The reason why Albanians have so much E-V13 is also obvious, Albanians are not Illyrians. They do not speak an Illyrian descended language as affirmed by Matzinger recently and as affirmed by all available evidence about the proto-Albanian language. They might be plenty of Illyrian descended J-L283 carriers in Albanians but mostly they are locals, part of whom belonged to the Romanized Komani culture. They are descended of Latin speakers who lost the Illyrian language by 3rd, 4th century AD. Part of them might have been elsewhere, in Dardania, as it seems proto-Albanians or proto-Vlachs there met some remnants of Illyrians who passed onto them some influence.

Albanians also autosomally have little to do with Illyrians. Take this G25 model with proto-Slavic AV2, with Iron Age Bulgarian/Thracian and with no less than 3 IA Illyrians from Dalmatia.
Target: AlbanianDistance: 2.3147% / 0.02314740
70.6 BGR_IA
26.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
3.0 HRV_EIA

Despite having all these Illyrians in the model, Albanians are autosomally mostly Iron Age Bulgarian with some Slavic and little Illyrian influence. The earliest named leaders of Albanians from the very early 13th century carried titles typical for Vlachs, typical for shepherds. One of them even had a Romanian name. All of this is an indication that not so long before the first mention of Albanians they were not located in Albania, but likely somewhere in Dardania. Also the term Arbanas is obviously from historical sources just based on being settled in Arban region. Also interestingly Shqiptar is actually much older than I thought, it does date at least to 14th century.

EDIT: WTF is wrong with this place, space and enter don't work... (tried now with a different browser)

 

[mount123]

Just get into your head that E-V13 has nothing to do with the Glasinac-Mat culture as evidenced by all ancient DNA and as predicted by me long ago because Glasinac-Mat is deeply connected to the MBA Posušje culture which again shows two J2b2 samples of two different clades. Daunians are descended of Southern Illyrians and they do now show E-V13. Just the mere fact that almost all Illyrians are J-L283 and almost all Daco-Thracians are E-V13 is enough to blast worthless ramblings of so many internet Albanians into oblivion. The reason is the same as for I1 not being Celtic, or U152 not being Scandinavian. The reason why Albanians have so much E-V13 is also obvious, Albanians are not Illyrians. They do not speak an Illyrian descended language as affirmed by Matzinger recently and as affirmed by all available evidence about the proto-Albanian language. They might be plenty of Illyrian descended J-L283 carriers in Albanians but mostly they are locals, part of whom belonged to the Romanized Komani culture. They are descended of Latin speakers who lost the Illyrian language by 3rd, 4th century AD. Part of them might have been elsewhere, in Dardania, as it seems proto-Albanians or proto-Vlachs there met some remnants of Illyrians who passed onto them some influence. Albanians also autosomally have little to do with Illyrians. Take this G25 model with proto-Slavic AV2, with Iron Age Bulgarian/Thracian and with no less than 3 IA Illyrians from Dalmatia. Target: AlbanianDistance: 2.3147% / 0.0231474070.6 BGR_IA26.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad3.0 HRV_EIA Despite having all these Illyrians in the model, Albanians are autosomally mostly Iron Age Bulgarian with some Slavic and little Illyrian influence. The earliest named leaders of Albanians from the very early 13th century carried titles typical for Vlachs, typical for shepherds. One of them even had a Romanian name. All of this is an indication that not so long before the first mention of Albanians they were not located in Albania, but likely somewhere in Dardania. Also the term Arbanas is obviously from historical sources just based on being settled in Arban region. Also interestingly Shqiptar is actually much older than I thought, it does date at least to 14th century. WTF is wrong with this place, space and enter don't work...

The mixing of the Illyrians and the other ''group'' definitely happened much earlier than the Middle Ages. The Albanians as such predated the Slavic hordes in Southeastern Europe. The Illyrian language is incredibly undocumented, so no real conclusions can be drawn here.


As for the other propaganda diarrhea, Ukraina po t'thirr.

 

[Fustan]

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E-V13 or R1b-Z2705 might be represented in some Illyrian groups after various mixings, but they do not form the core of Illyrian ethnogenesis.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Did you see that post? Maybe I got my golden blond hair and grey green eyes from the Sumerians [FONT=&quot][/FONT] Still waiting for that tan though… bregdet vacation can be quite painful.[/FONT]

Not the core of the Illyrian ethnogenesis, maybe, but they must have been represented in Illyrian enthos otherwise most Albanians don't descent from Illyrians which is not true.
As for Aspurg, save your WPM for a coauthorship with some random idiot on poreklo or stormfront. Not worth engaging with someone who celebrated a contaminated Slavic I2a sample.

 

[mount123]

At this point, as per usual, I kindly remind everyone that this thread is only about "J2b-L283 (Proto-Illyrian).

I am very much sure that there are other fora where you can share nationalistic pseudoscientific "hypotheses" with other weird people.

 

[Hawk]

mount123/enter_tain/Thraco-Illyrian/Fatherland how many alternative accounts will you open?

 

[Hawk]

Just get into your head that E-V13 has nothing to do with the Glasinac-Mat culture as evidenced by all ancient DNA and as predicted by me long ago because Glasinac-Mat is deeply connected to the MBA Posušje culture which again shows two J2b2 samples of two different clades. Daunians are descended of Southern Illyrians and they do now show E-V13. Just the mere fact that almost all Illyrians are J-L283 and almost all Daco-Thracians are E-V13 is enough to blast worthless ramblings of so many internet Albanians into oblivion. The reason is the same as for I1 not being Celtic, or U152 not being Scandinavian. The reason why Albanians have so much E-V13 is also obvious, Albanians are not Illyrians. They do not speak an Illyrian descended language as affirmed by Matzinger recently and as affirmed by all available evidence about the proto-Albanian language. They might be plenty of Illyrian descended J-L283 carriers in Albanians but mostly they are locals, part of whom belonged to the Romanized Komani culture. They are descended of Latin speakers who lost the Illyrian language by 3rd, 4th century AD. Part of them might have been elsewhere, in Dardania, as it seems proto-Albanians or proto-Vlachs there met some remnants of Illyrians who passed onto them some influence. Albanians also autosomally have little to do with Illyrians. Take this G25 model with proto-Slavic AV2, with Iron Age Bulgarian/Thracian and with no less than 3 IA Illyrians from Dalmatia. Target: AlbanianDistance: 2.3147% / 0.0231474070.6 BGR_IA26.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad3.0 HRV_EIA Despite having all these Illyrians in the model, Albanians are autosomally mostly Iron Age Bulgarian with some Slavic and little Illyrian influence. The earliest named leaders of Albanians from the very early 13th century carried titles typical for Vlachs, typical for shepherds. One of them even had a Romanian name. All of this is an indication that not so long before the first mention of Albanians they were not located in Albania, but likely somewhere in Dardania. Also the term Arbanas is obviously from historical sources just based on being settled in Arban region. Also interestingly Shqiptar is actually much older than I thought, it does date at least to 14th century. WTF is wrong with this place, space and enter don't work...

Let's wait for Southern-arch paper, we will have enough samples to make conclusion. But, you might be right anyway, either fully or partially.

 

[mount123]

Not the core of the Illyrian ethnogenesis, maybe, but they must have been represented in Illyrian enthos otherwise most Albanians don't descent from Illyrians which is not true.
As for Aspurg, save your WPM for a coauthorship with some random idiot on poreklo or stormfront. Not worth engaging with someone who celebrated a contaminated Slavic I2a sample.

We have strong paternal and most definitely also Illyrian autosomal heritage. But saying all E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 is of Illyrian descent is very exaggerated.

As for that "Asuprgistan guy" I just wanted to make it clear with my last North-East-Geg or as we call it over here "Guha e Fush Dardhes" sentence, that I don't agree with his Anti-Albanian/Anti-Kosovar sentiment driven propaganda (I mean would be ironic if I did).

 

[Fustan]

At this point, as per usual, I kindly remind everyone that this thread is only about "J2b-L283 (Proto-Illyrian).

I am very much sure that there are other fora where you can share nationalistic pseudoscientific "hypotheses" with other weird people.

True, let's get back on topic of our great Illyrian haplogroup.

 

[Fustan]

We have strong paternal and most definitely also Illyrian autosomal heritage. But saying all E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 is of Illyrian descent is very exaggerated.

As for that "Asuprgistan guy" I just wanted to make it clear with my last North-East-Geg or as we call it over here "Guha e Fush Dardhes" sentence, that I don't agree with his Anti-Albanian/Anti-Kosovar sentiment driven propaganda (I mean would be ironic if I did).

Sure, but I'm not completely familiar with the EV13 or R-L23 clades at all. My position is that the largest of their respective clades that Albanians fall into were part of the Illyrian ethnos. Some might be ancient Greek or even Thracian. No ethnicity ever belonged or belongs to just one haplogroup. J2-L283 was obviously the founding one, and looking at this thread it's us who have to teach our EV13 Albanians about it all over again, it's come full circle.

 

[mount123]

As for Aspurg, save your WPM for a coauthorship with some random idiot on poreklo or stormfront. Not worth engaging with someone who celebrated a contaminated Slavic I2a sample.

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Honestly, I don't care about them now, so I won't deal with them. Only joined this forum as I am the son of a Krasniqi man and a Korbi woman and am therefore very interested in our haplogroup and Illyrian heritage. It would all be much more relaxed without the input of weird people galloping from one "theory" to another.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot](The other accounts do not belong to me, nor do I have anything to do with these people. I am saying this since that „Hakuna matata“ person is claiming that )[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]I'm a physics student so I've never looked into biological subjects like population genetics before, but these fora are for sure a magnet for twitter historians.


Yeah that Slavic sample and the "people" who celebrated it was for sure cringe af.[/FONT]

 

[Aspurg]

Not the core of the Illyrian ethnogenesis, maybe, but they must have been represented in Illyrian enthos otherwise most Albanians don't descent from Illyrians which is not true.
As for Aspurg, save your WPM for a coauthorship with some random idiot on poreklo or stormfront. Not worth engaging with someone who celebrated a contaminated Slavic I2a sample.

I "celebrated" the I2a sample?? Why would I do that, I was just trolling.. Obviously autosomally it doesn't fit into an Illyrian.

Now about Albanians. The only proto-Albanian clades can be those present in both Ghegs and Tosks. And these are:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4465/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y173822/

Is there a single Tosk here?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/

I'm not sure.

So why Tosks lack J-L283 and not only do they lack it but they show different clades, they show more of J-Z631 as opposed to Ghegs. It seems some population roaming around carrying Z2705, BY4465 and Y173822 picked up these J2b2 people that were sitting there and "Albanized" them.

 

[mount123]

True, let's get back on topic of our great Illyrian haplogroup.

Po Ilir jena! :bigsmile:

Sorry on my behalf too for engaging in conversations with these people.

 

[mount123]

I "celebrated" the I2a sample?? Why would I do that, I was just trolling.. Obviously autosomally it doesn't fit into an Illyrian.

Now about Albanians. The only proto-Albanian clades can be those present in both Ghegs and Tosks. And these are:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4465/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y173822/

Is there a single Tosk here?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/

I'm not sure.

So why Tosks lack J-L283 and not only do they lack it but they show different clades, they show more of J-Z631 as opposed to Ghegs. It seems some population roaming around carrying Z2705, BY4465 and Y173822 picked up these J2b2 people that were sitting there and "Albanized" them.

Laughs in Korbi J2b-Z631

 

[Aspurg]

Let's wait for Southern-arch paper, we will have enough samples to make conclusion. But, you might be right anyway, either fully or partially.

Yes for sure we are waiting for that paper. I am very interested in any V13 samples and where will they appear (other than those samples from Bulgaria that we know of).

Having seen these Albanian leaders and especially their shepherd titles from the 1204. Ragusian document. Here son of the first Albanian ruler Progon, Dimitri is mentioned alongside some other nobles (one progenitor of an Albanian noble house). It is hard to imagine these people having anything to do with the Comani-Kroja culture which was not pastoral. One can still see they carried "Vlachoid/shepherd" titles at that time... This was recently published by a Serb historian who is a Byzantine specialist, so he has been researching also the area of Albania.

 

[enter_tain]

I love the tactics of these people. Years ago, Albanians were Turks. Then they came from the Caucaus or North Africa or something. Then now it's the Balkans, but it's not Illyrian it's Dacian or Thracian. Now that linguistically neither Dacian/Thracian show Albanian conventions, it's some random ghost population.

Every year the possibilities are shrinking more and more to where they can displace a tribe that was literally mentioned to be there for over 2000 years. Now they're relegated to southern Serbia or something.

 

[enter_tain]

Just get into your head that E-V13 has nothing to do with the Glasinac-Mat culture as evidenced by all ancient DNA and as predicted by me long ago because Glasinac-Mat is deeply connected to the MBA Posušje culture which again shows two J2b2 samples of two different clades. Daunians are descended of Southern Illyrians and they do now show E-V13. Just the mere fact that almost all Illyrians are J-L283 and almost all Daco-Thracians are E-V13 is enough to blast worthless ramblings of so many internet Albanians into oblivion. The reason is the same as for I1 not being Celtic, or U152 not being Scandinavian.

The reason why Albanians have so much E-V13 is also obvious, Albanians are not Illyrians. They do not speak an Illyrian descended language as affirmed by Matzinger recently and as affirmed by all available evidence about the proto-Albanian language. They might be plenty of Illyrian descended J-L283 carriers in Albanians but mostly they are locals, part of whom belonged to the Romanized Komani culture. They are descended of Latin speakers who lost the Illyrian language by 3rd, 4th century AD. Part of them might have been elsewhere, in Dardania, as it seems proto-Albanians or proto-Vlachs there met some remnants of Illyrians who passed onto them some influence.

Albanians also autosomally have little to do with Illyrians. Take this G25 model with proto-Slavic AV2, with Iron Age Bulgarian/Thracian and with no less than 3 IA Illyrians from Dalmatia.
Target: AlbanianDistance: 2.3147% / 0.02314740
70.6 BGR_IA
26.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
3.0 HRV_EIA

Despite having all these Illyrians in the model, Albanians are autosomally mostly Iron Age Bulgarian with some Slavic and little Illyrian influence. The earliest named leaders of Albanians from the very early 13th century carried titles typical for Vlachs, typical for shepherds. One of them even had a Romanian name. All of this is an indication that not so long before the first mention of Albanians they were not located in Albania, but likely somewhere in Dardania. Also the term Arbanas is obviously from historical sources just based on being settled in Arban region. Also interestingly Shqiptar is actually much older than I thought, it does date at least to 14th century.

EDIT: WTF is wrong with this place, space and enter don't work... (tried now with a different browser)

Do you know how dumb you sound? Albanians cluster with Greeks, who are EV-13 heavy, and also RZ2103 heavy. Southern Illyrians heavily intermixed with northern Hellenized populations like Epirus and Macedonia. There are countless Greek colonies in southern Albania. Do you expect Iron Age southern Illyrians to be genetically isolated from Greeks?

Explain to me how a population in northern Serbia close to central Europe would autosomally be identical to another Mediterrenean population?

 

[torzio]

too many people are merging origin and ethnicity of a populace and think it is the same thing

Origin: is the beginning of a people

Ethnicity: This refers to cultural characteristics and what makes someone part of another group


Illyrian ethnicity is with Bosnians, Albanians, Croatians, Slovenians, Italians, Montenegrin and a few others ....................even some British in remnants of Roman-Illyrian troops that stayed in Britain

 

[enter_tain]

And look. From the Middle Bronze Age onwards, Greeks and Albanians experience the same shift from some of their ancient counterparts.

EV-13 and RZ2103 are not Dacian or Thracian or whatever you're spewing. These are markers of the early Bronze age that are common all throughout southern Europe and in the case of RZ2103 to the other side of the Black Sea.

 

[mount123]

too many people are merging origin and ethnicity of a populace and think it is the same thing
Origin: is the beginning of a people
Ethnicity: This refers to cultural characteristics and what makes someone part of another group
Illyrian ethnicity is with Bosnians, Albanians, Croatians, Slovenians, Italians, Montenegrin and a few others ....................even some British in remnants of Roman-Illyrian troops that stayed in Britain

Strongest Illyrian patrilineage J2b-L283 and autosomal survival is Kosovo, North Albania and certain areas in Albanian populated North Macedonia (we call that region Ilirida).

As for Croats and Bosnians they are very much Slavic scoring 80% + Slavic DNA in aDNA calculators there is no Illyrian patrilineage survival in Balkan Slavs ( 70%+ Slavic Y DNA in modern Bosnia even higher in modern Croatia I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches of R1a-M458 ) pre-Slavic component in Balkan Slavs is very Southern shifted so most likely Thracian or from Thracian like populations E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705, which was picked up by Slavs during their conquest.

 

[Aspurg]

Do you know how dumb you sound? Albanians cluster with Greeks, who are EV-13 heavy, and also RZ2103 heavy. Southern Illyrians heavily intermixed with northern Hellenized populations like Epirus and Macedonia. There are countless Greek colonies in southern Albania. Do you expect Iron Age southern Illyrians to be genetically isolated from Greeks?

Explain to me how a population in northern Serbia close to central Europe would autosomally be identical to another Mediterrenean population?

Do not mix apples and oranges. Being "close to central Europe" in a modern context doesn't really mean anything. 6000 years ago there were EEF's living all over central Europe and they were alot more Mediterranean than any of these modern populations.

It is not appropriate to compare modern Albanians and Greeks at face value, both have Slavic or other influences, this goes especially for some Greeks.

Based on aDNA samples, we can say that the significant parts of the Eastern Central Europe were also in IA rather Mediterranean autosomally.

So people are imagining modern genetically more Northern Central East Europe that came to be due to Germanic Slavic, Celtic invasions..