J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Dema]

Yes, I agree with your map. Of course I’m just parroting what others, who are better versed than me on this subject, have been saying for years. I think it’s worth noting that Maciamo Hay, who started this site, long ago postulated that J2b M205 came from the Zagros area and that J2b L283 spread to Europe via the Caucasus Mtns and the Steppe with the Indo European westward migrations. It’s all part of his article on J2 here on Eupedia. He was way ahead of just about everyone. It’s one of the reasons I like this site and this forum.

Well yes, regarding Maciamo, he was probably the first person who in details tried to explain all haplogroups and their sublcades.
I have exceptional respect for his work and courage to try to connect and explain all these genetical dots.
Many people maybe detected some mistake or wrong theory of Maciamo somewhere, and they were first to criticise but then none of them tried or dared to do such a enormous work and explanation for all these possibilities.

Maciamo was for sure right when he connected L283 to Indo-European expansion while others were in that time connecting E-v13 and J2b-L283 to Neolithic Europe.
However, many of Maciamo texts are outdated and need to be additionally worked on. I hope that Maciamo is well and that he will continue to update his articles and his work regarding Y-DNA exploration. Also he often kinda gives possibility to more then one theory.

You are right Maciamo said it here:

"No Neolithic sample from Central or South Asia has been tested to date, but the present geographic distribution of haplogroup J2 suggests that it could initially have dispersed during the Neolithic from the Zagros mountains and northern Mesopotamia across the Iranian plateau to South Asia and Central Asia, and across the Caucasus to Russia (Volga-Ural). The first expansion probably correlated with the diffusion of domesticated of cattle and goats (starting c. 8000-9000 BCE), rather than with the development of cereal agriculture in the Levant."

However, here he speaks about J2, J2-M172 (J2a + J2b), what Maciamo says here is that J2-M172 is entirely from Zagros. I have to admit i didn't explore J2a enough to make a decent opinion. Also J1 haplogroup. There is possibility that when GHIJK haplogroup diversified that J1 and J2a were dominant in Caucasus while J2b was more dominant more south in Zagros mountains.
There were both Neolithic J1 and J2a samples found in Caucasus, but also J2a in ancient Zagros, and these haplogroups are found in decent percentages in modern Caucasus population, in contrast to J2b which seems to be Zagros expansion. Then further in J2 text Maciamo debates about Caucasus J2a TMRCA and that it all might be recent arrival from Zagros mountains, and i will investigate this in future but for now i dont have enough material to comment on it. Also Maciamo in his J2 text makes many Kura-Araxes hypothesis, but i am not sure that any of these Kura-Araxes theories were actually proven.

Also he mixes J2b1 and J2b2 entire time, as many of threads and people in Eupedia did for years. In J2b-L283 text the J2b1 is mentioned entire time even tho their migration path is different since probably 10 000 years ago.

The vast majority of J2b lineages belong to J2b2 and its subclades. While J2b* and J2b1 lineages are mostly restricted to the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia and the Balkans, J2b2 is found throughout Europe, in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, in Central Asia and in South Asia, particularly in India. Although J2b2 itself was formed 14,000 years ago, almost all European J2b2 members belong to the L283 branch and share a common patrilineal ancestor who lived 6,000 years ago. What's more, 99% of them fall under the Z628 (aka Z597) clade, with a shared common ancestor who lived only 4,500 years ago. This Z628 clade is also found in India, Armenia and the Levant, among others.

J2b1 mentioned here is for sure not restricted to the Caucasus neither eastern Anatolia but its so to say none-existent in Caucasus and eastern Anatolia, it can barely be found in Caucasus and Anatolia but rather as already concluded long ago, it had exclusive Bronze Age Middle Eastern Fertile Crescent expansion.

Indians mentioned here under Z628 are probably European expansion giving that they share TMRCA of 3200 ybp with Europeans like Albanians, they could indeed be from Alexander the Great army : ) Also their closest brother clades are in Brasil and Colombia which could indicate European expansion to American continent.

The most likely hypothesis is that J2b2a1 (L283) penetrated into the Pontic Steppe region during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic period, by crossing the Caucasus from western Iran, then migrated to the Volga-Ural region, where it was absorbed by the R1a-Z93 tribes in the Early Bronze Age. As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions approximately from 4,300 to 3,500 years ago. Other J2b lineages could have ended up in the Balkans during a number of Steppe invasions from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages.

I agree with this just what in the world made Maciamo conclude that J2b-L283 expanded to Europe with R1a-Z93 tribes ? After crossing Caucasus from Zagros mountains J2b2-L283 most likely spread to Europe with R1b tribes. There are strong indications that J2b2-L283 spread with R1b Bronze Age Indo-European tribes.

Furthermore they for sure didnt cross from "western Iran" as Maciamo says, simply because Iran didnt exist back then. I understand that he is talking about modern Iranian territory but that is whole another thing. Actually best would be to use term Zagros mountains, since its obvious that this mountain is what we are talking about.

Also I agree with Bronze Age J2b-L283 migration but Middle Ages ? I dont believe this. TMRCA, diversification, and Bronze Age Dalmatian ancient DNA of L283 clearly indicate Bronze Age expansion.

Another conceivable possibility is that a minority of J2b2-L283 accompanied R1b-M269 from the Caucasus region and migrated to the Volga-Ural region in the early Bronze Age, propagating with them the Proto-Indo-European language and bronze technology to the Caspian steppe before the expansion of this new culture to Central and South Asia. The drawback of this hypothesis is that it doesn't explain why R1b lineages strongly outnumber J2b2 in Europe but not in South Asia.

This is the correct theory regarding L283 and its IE expansion to Europe. While South Asian J2b2-Z2432 is formed 9700 ybp, meaning they are distant to European J2b2-L283 9700 years, and that South-Asian J2b2-Z2432 is of Pre-IE origin like Dravidians. While Indian IE speakers are R1a.

Both J2b1 and J2b2-L283 are also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Graecia). However they are almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. The only variety of R1b that is found at reasonably high frequencies in Southeast Europe, and particularly in Greece, is R1b-Z2103, the branch found in the eastern Yamna culture, including the Volga-Ural region.

I agree with almost everything said here, and this theory sounds most plausible to me. Also i agree that J2b-L283 was most likely spread to Europe after joining with Yamna R1b-Z2103 tribes. However Maciamo again mentions J2b1 here under L283 text. J2b1 has formed date 16 000 years and had completely other migration route. J2b1 expanded in Bronze Age Middle East and expanded to Europe thru Phoenicians, Canaanites and Roman Empire, while J2b-L283 with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.




Regarding J2b1:

J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect.

J2b1 originated just as all J2b most likely in Zagros mountains where oldest and only J2b* ancient DNA was found.
Again, J2b1 did not originate in Iran because Iran did not exist back then. Oldest J2b* ancient DNA is found in Zagros mountains and about the same distance and very close either to Baghdad in west or Tehran in east. In Iran as mentioned above J2b2 is almost none existent and the 1 % there seems to go mostly into group spread among Iranian Africans. While J2-M205 in Iran is mostly found among Iranian Armenians. Really neither J2b-L283 neither J2b-M205 cannot be connected to Iranian people but rather to Zagros mountains which is only partially part of modern western Iran and that is the only reason why Iran is mentioned.

Also this text about J2b1 is really old and outdated now. Maciamo says Y22069 in Balkans is distinct from East Mediterranean and Caucasian branches. Maciamo based this theory upon outdated and wrong Yfull tree, where Balkan Y22069 was wrongly positioned in Yfull, just the same as it is wrongly positioned in main Eupedia J2 phylogenetic tree as it can be seen in article.

With Yfull update Y22069 was confirmed PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+, and Y22075+
These are all major SNP that Y22069 shares with Middle Easterners like Palestinians where biggest diversity of CTS1969 is found atm.

Balkan Y22059 shares most of these SNP also with French, Italian, and Spanish samples. But also Greek and Albanian ones like CTS1969 SNP.

Italian, Spanish and French samples share PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+, and Y22075+ SNPs with Balkan and Palestine and other Middle Eastern nations like Qatar, Jordan, and so on. And other Mediterranean populations like Greeks are yet to be uploaded to Yfull but most likely they are also CTS1969. So Balkan Y22059 is not more distant or different then any other Mediterranean J2-M205.

 

[Dema]

Something like this:

Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.

About this map is important to note that few of these subclades are closer one to another. They are distant 10 000 to 16 000 years one from another actually.

European L283 and Indian Z2432 have TMRCA 9700 ybp. European L283, Indian Z2432 and Middle Eastern Z2453 have TMRCA 13800 YBP.
And European L283, Indian Z2432, Middle Eastern Z2453, and Middle Eastern M205 have TMRCA 15800 ybp.

So by formed date none of this subclades is closer one to another then 9700 years going by Yfull L283 formed date. So Indian and European clades are closest with difference 9700 years, their MRCA was most likely Zagros mountaineer where one of his descendant tribes expanded north (L283), and one south (Z2432) most early 9700 years ago.

 

[Trojet]

Something like this:
Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.

I generally agree with this map, but I don't think J-L283 was that far north. IMO, it likely migrated around the northern shores of the Black Sea. As previously reported here, the new Armenian J-L283* is actually negative for ~7 SNPs at current J-L283 level, so the split with the European branches, and the TMRCA of J-L283, should be around 6000 ybp. This makes it very likely that it migrated to Europe sometime after 6000 ybp, but no later than 4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA). And it's possible that it expanded into the Balkans/Italy independently from an R1b clade, perhaps even preceding it. To me the J-Z600 branch, and more specifically J-Z597, seems pretty Western Balkan/Adriatic, so it was probably already in the region at the time of its TMRCA. Some argue that YFull ages can be around 15% underestimated, under which scenario the J-Z597 TMRCA should be ~5000 ybp. These Early Bronze Age Tumuli from Montenegro are very interesting. I hope they can eventually get aDNA. If not some R1b-M269 clade, J-L283 (J-Z597?) would be my next best guess: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html?m=1

 

[Dema]

I generally agree with this map, but I don't think J-L283 was that far north. IMO, it likely migrated around the northern shores of the Black Sea. As previously reported here, the new Armenian J-L283* is actually negative for ~ 7 SNPs at current J-L283 level, so the split with the European branches, and the TMRCA of J-L283, should be around 6000 ybp. This makes it very likely that it migrated to Europe sometime after 6000 ybp, but no later than 4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA). And it's possible that it expanded into the Balkans/Italy independently from an R1b clade, perhaps even preceding it. To me the J-Z600 branch, and more specifically J-Z597, seems pretty Western Balkan/Adriatic, so it was probably already in the area at the time of its TMRCA. Some argue that YFull ages can be around 15% underestimated, under which scenario the J-Z597 TMRCA should be ~5000 ybp. These Early Bronze Age Tumuli from Montenegro are very interesting. I hope they can eventually get aDNA. If not some R1b-M269 clade, J-L283 (J-Z597?) would be my next best guess: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html?m=1

Thank you Trojet! You are right, i have just made lines without any precision.
Here i redone it only for J2-L283, i hope this is probably more realistic.

 

[Dema]

This just reminded me of that tool that people were hyping not long ago, the Phylogeographer, somehow it calculates that L283 went strait from West Middle East to Anatolia and to Europe which would be Neolithic farmer route. There is no need to say that this is completely wrong. In 8000 BCE this specific part where J-M241 is shown was dominated by E1b tribes, probably by first time leaving Africa and conquering Middle East. E1b-V13 is probably their expansion giving that Natufians are oldest out of Africa E1b found. Furthermore West Middle East was dominated by E1b and T1 tribes since Neolithic to Bronze Age where J1 and J2 seems to conquer the territory from direction of Zagros mountains in time of Early Bronze Age or a bit earlier. This can easily be seen by checking the ancient DNA in this zone.

Phylogeographer on J-L283:

 

[Aspurg]

E1b-V13 is probably their expansion giving that Natufians are oldest out of Africa E1b found. Furthermore West Middle East was dominated by E1b and T1 tribes since Neolithic to Bronze Age where J1 and J2 seems to conquer the territory from direction of Zagros mountains in time of Early Bronze Age or a bit earlier. This can easily be seen by checking the ancient DNA in this zone.

Phylogeographer on J-L283:

No, Natufians were not earliest E1b1b's out of Africa, Iberomaurusians already had stronger Eurasian than "Ancestral North African". So E1b1b must have been wandering around the Middle East before that. Also because Iranians have E-M215+, M35- that is unrelated to Somalian (of Arabian origins) E-V16!! If Iranian is V16+ then V16 is not African at all.

Phylogeographer generally is of little use.

 

[Polska]

I generally agree with this map, but I don't think J-L283 was that far north. IMO, it likely migrated around the northern shores of the Black Sea. As previously reported here, the new Armenian J-L283* is actually negative for ~7 SNPs at current J-L283 level, so the split with the European branches, and the TMRCA of J-L283, should be around 6000 ybp. This makes it very likely that it migrated to Europe sometime after 6000 ybp, but no later than 4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA). And it's possible that it expanded into the Balkans/Italy independently from an R1b clade, perhaps even preceding it. To me the J-Z600 branch, and more specifically J-Z597, seems pretty Western Balkan/Adriatic, so it was probably already in the region at the time of its TMRCA. Some argue that YFull ages can be around 15% underestimated, under which scenario the J-Z597 TMRCA should be ~5000 ybp. These Early Bronze Age Tumuli from Montenegro are very interesting. I hope they can eventually get aDNA. If not some R1b-M269 clade, J-L283 (J-Z597?) would be my next best guess: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html?m=1

The link you’ve provided is very interesting to me, especially the part regarding the silver axe. My family is many generations (120 years) separated from life in the Carpathian Mountains in Poland (we’re all from Arizona), but everyone still displays the CIUPAGA (pronounced CHOO-PAGA) in their homes. We usually have them mounted on the wall as a reminder of our roots in the mountains of Poland. These ciupagas are very similar to the silver axe mentioned in your link.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd's_axe

 

[Dema]

No, Natufians were not earliest E1b1b's out of Africa, Iberomaurusians already had stronger Eurasian than "Ancestral North African". So E1b1b must have been wandering around the Middle East before that. Also because Iranians have E-M215+, M35- that is unrelated to Somalian (of Arabian origins) E-V16!! If Iranian is V16+ then V16 is not African at all.

Phylogeographer generally is of little use.

I'm sorry for late reply. As far as i know Natufians are earliest out of Africa E1b found. In Western Middle East 12000 - 10000 ybp.
Oldest city in the world Jericho was probably dominated with E1b and T1 tribes.

However, looking by ancient DNA, J-M304 seems to conquer the territory from direction of Zagros mountains in Early Bronze Age, or a bit earlier.

Therefore possibly pushing E1b and T1 further to Anatolia and Europe, but also intermixing with them with J-M304 becoming major line since Bronze Age.

Iberomaurusians, probably as other Northwestern African wings were in that time also colonising Europe from Iberia. In Iberia we have oldest European Neolithic E1b>L618 sample. Therefore its possible that E-v13 is either Iberomaurusian and expanded thru Iberia, or either Natufian and Jericho remains that moved to Europe thru Anatolia.

By all evidences L618, settled Europe somewhere in late Neolithic but it was minor line. Until specific part of L618, more specifically v13 joined with Indo Europeans and had successful expansion. Probably wiping out other pre-BA natives, together with his other L618 relatives. Therefore, out of entire L618, only one part (TMRCA 4900 ybp) of E-v13 managed to survive. And few isolated samples like L618+ and v13- in Sardinia and Albania.

Also regarding Fertile Crescent, there is possibility that Sumerians were E1b and T1 dominant, while their conquerors Akkadians were J-M304 dominant.

J-M304 when separated from GHIJK haplogroup, it was most likely spread from Caucasus to Zagros and surrounding areas.

 

[torzio]

I'm sorry for late reply. As far as i know Natufians are earliest out of Africa E1b found. In Western Middle East 12000 - 10000 ybp.
Oldest city in the world Jericho was probably dominated with E1b and T1 tribes.

However, looking by ancient DNA, J-M304 seems to conquer the territory from direction of Zagros mountains in Early Bronze Age, or a bit earlier.

Therefore possibly pushing E1b and T1 further to Anatolia and Europe, but also intermixing with them with J-M304 becoming major line since Bronze Age.

Iberomaurusians, probably as other Northwestern African wings were in that time also colonising Europe from Iberia. In Iberia we have oldest European Neolithic E1b>L618 sample. Therefore its possible that E-v13 is either Iberomaurusian and expanded thru Iberia, or either Natufian and Jericho remains that moved to Europe thru Anatolia.

By all evidences L618, settled Europe somewhere in late Neolithic but it was minor line. Until specific part of L618, more specifically v13 joined with Indo Europeans and had successful expansion. Probably wiping out other pre-BA natives, together with his other L618 relatives. Therefore, out of entire L618, only one part (TMRCA 4900 ybp) of E-v13 managed to survive. And few isolated samples like L618+ and v13- in Sardinia and Albania.

Also regarding Fertile Crescent, there is possibility that Sumerians were E1b and T1 dominant, while their conquerors Akkadians were J-M304 dominant.

J-M304 when separated from GHIJK haplogroup, it was most likely spread from Caucasus to Zagros and surrounding areas.

you forgot Haplogroup L
Every T ydna person has Haploroup LT snp's ( 100% )..........so wherever you think of the beginning of any T , you must also think about haplgroup L .
and also, before haploroup LT ....they where all under haplgroup K-M9

Most likely scenario for the L and T split would be somewhere near the caspian sea...............my guess is South Central Asia, Turkmenistan or northern Iran area

The only haplogroup out of Africa would be E and C ...............but they are also found in neolithic samples in ancient europe and asia

 

[Dema]

you forgot Haplogroup L
Every T ydna person has Haploroup LT snp's ( 100% )..........so wherever you think of the beginning of any T , you must also think about haplgroup L .
and also, before haploroup LT ....they where all under haplgroup K-M9, Most likely scenario for the L and T split would be somewhere near the caspian sea...............my guess is South Central Asia, Turkmenistan or northern Iran area

There was no haplogroup L found together with T. And even if they were, there is no connection as L and T split 42600 years ago according to Yfull.
Since this split was so early, there is no wonder they are not related and neither shared same migrations. At least not probably in last 30 000 years. L and T probably colived together 40000 - 30000 years ago.

The only haplogroup out of Africa would be E and C ...............but they are also found in neolithic samples in ancient europe and asia

All haplogroups are out of Africa, but in different period and migration waves, look here: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml




Also i would like to add that Western Middle East in Neolithic and Epipaleolithic was dominated by E1b tribes. Then in Chalcolithic, it seems T1 tribes conquered the territory and become dominant. And finally in Early Bronze Age there is domination and appearance of J1 and J2 (J-M304) tribes.

Partial reference : https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/mi...e-chalcolithic-also-marked-by-distinct-y-dna/



However, some final aDNA tests are needed to finalise this story. Like ancient sites in Iraq.

 

[torzio]

There was no haplogroup L found together with T. And even if they were, there is no connection as L and T split 42600 years ago according to Yfull.
Since this split was so early, there is no wonder they are not related and neither shared same migrations. At least not probably in last 30 000 years. L and T probably colived together 40000 - 30000 years ago.




All haplogroups are out of Africa, but in different period and migration waves, look here: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml




Also i would like to add that Western Middle East in Neolithic and Epipaleolithic was dominated by E1b tribes. Then in Chalcolithic, it seems T1 tribes conquered the territory and become dominant. And finally in Early Bronze Age there is domination and appearance of J1 and J2 (J-M304) tribes.

Partial reference : https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/mi...e-chalcolithic-also-marked-by-distinct-y-dna/



However, some final aDNA tests are needed to finalise this story. Like ancient sites in Iraq.

when haplogroup IJ split into I , J1 and J2 is when haplogroup LT formed ( same time ) from haplogroup K-M9, so the J haplogroups where already in motion in the "middleast" and dominating the area with E and C
the link in regards to Chalcolithic has already been discussed and their origins is Kura-Araxes area
the Dominating haplogroup in the Middle east seems to be J1 , then J2 then the E and C , then came T and L ( into the levant )

Since IJ split and I entered Europe , I can see J also entering Europe with haplo I .............so, any J discussion for Europe should be older in time

 

[Dema]

when haplogroup IJ split into I , J1 and J2 is when haplogroup LT formed ( same time ) from haplogroup K-M9, so the J haplogroups where already in motion in the "middleast" and dominating the area with E and C

Not really, i think you should go back to the drawing board : )
As i told you in Neolithic E1b was dominating with no T or J, then in Chalcolithic T was dominant with some E but still no J. And finally in Bronze Age J was dominating with some E and T. If you checked ancient DNA, which was my main source of bringing out these opinions you would understand it also. Or actually read the link i posted.

Where do you see haplogroup J here ? or even T? This one sample of T but its negative to T1a1 which was later found in Chalcolithic.


Epipaleolithic and Neolithic:

11840-9760 BCE	Raqefet Cave	Israel	E1b1
11840-9760 BCE	Raqefet Cave	Israel	CT
11840-9760 BCE	Raqefet Cave	Israel	CT
11840-9760 BCE	Raqefet Cave	Israel	E1b1b1b2
11840-9760 BCE	Raqefet Cave	Israel	E1b1b1b2
8300-7900 BCE	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	CT(xE,G,J,LT,R,Q1a,Q1b)
8300-7900 BCE	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	CT
8300-7900 BCE	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	E1b1b1b2
8197-7653 calBCE (8790±50 BP, Poz-81101,	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	E1b1b1
7940-7600 calBCE [7938-7580 calBCE
7722-7541 calBCE (8590±50 BP, Poz-81097)	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	T(xT1a1,T1a2a)
7733-7526 calBCE (8580±60 BP, Poz-81098)	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	E1b1b1a

Chalcolithic:

the link in regards to Chalcolithic has already been discussed and their origins is Kura-Araxes area

Did they test Kura-Araxes? No? Then Kura-Araxes remains unknown until tested. Its possible that T1 from Chalcolithic arrives from Kura, but that is only a theory while things im saying here are actually facts based on already tested ancient sites.

the Dominating haplogroup in the Middle east seems to be J1 , then J2 then the E and C , then came T and L ( into the levant )

Since IJ split and I entered Europe , I can see J also entering Europe with haplo I .............so, any J discussion for Europe should be older in time

That is true for modern people, but when looking at ancient DNA both J1 and J2 appear together in Early Bronze Age, therefore we can say that J-M304 (J1 + J2) brotherhood arrived together in same time even tho in various subclades like J1, J2a or J2b.

Pretty much all sites that yielded Neolithic E1b or Chalcolithic T1a, in Early Bronze Age were J1 or J2.

Bronze Age:

I1705 J1(xJ1a) Jordan_EBA
I1730 J(xJ1,J2a,J2b2a) Jordan_EBA

+ both Bronze Age Canaanite graves in Lebanon were J1 and J2 = J-M304


Thats why i said that pred-Semitic Sumerians were likely E1b and T1 dominant, while their conquerors Akkadians were likely J-M304.

However Sumerians and ancient sites in Iraq are not tested for aDNA and this just remains mystery. Also rivers Euphrates and Tigris are very close to where actually Zagros Neolithic J samples were found, so everything is possible. We will see in future.

 

[torzio]

Not really, i think you should go back to the drawing board : )
As i told you in Neolithic E1b was dominating with no T or J, then in Chalcolithic T was dominant with some E but still no J. And finally in Bronze Age J was dominating with some E and T. If you checked ancient DNA, which was my main source of bringing out these opinions you would understand it also. Or actually read the link i posted.

Where do you see haplogroup J here ? or even T? This one sample of T but its negative to T1a1 which was later found in Chalcolithic.


Epipaleolithic and Neolithic:

11840-9760 BCE	Raqefet Cave	Israel	E1b1
11840-9760 BCE	Raqefet Cave	Israel	CT
11840-9760 BCE	Raqefet Cave	Israel	CT
11840-9760 BCE	Raqefet Cave	Israel	E1b1b1b2
11840-9760 BCE	Raqefet Cave	Israel	E1b1b1b2
8300-7900 BCE	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	CT(xE,G,J,LT,R,Q1a,Q1b)
8300-7900 BCE	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	CT
8300-7900 BCE	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	E1b1b1b2
8197-7653 calBCE (8790±50 BP, Poz-81101,	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	E1b1b1
7940-7600 calBCE [7938-7580 calBCE
7722-7541 calBCE (8590±50 BP, Poz-81097)	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	T(xT1a1,T1a2a)
7733-7526 calBCE (8580±60 BP, Poz-81098)	'Ain Ghazal	Jordan	E1b1b1a

Chalcolithic:

Did they test Kura-Araxes? No? Then Kura-Araxes remains unknown until tested. Its possible that T1 from Chalcolithic arrives from Kura, but that is only a theory while things im saying here are actually facts based on already tested ancient sites.



That is true for modern people, but when looking at ancient DNA both J1 and J2 appear together in Early Bronze Age, therefore we can say that J-M304 (J1 + J2) brotherhood arrived together in same time even tho in various subclades like J1, J2a or J2b.

Pretty much all sites that yielded Neolithic E1b or Chalcolithic T1a, in Early Bronze Age were J1 or J2.

Bronze Age:

I1705 J1(xJ1a) Jordan_EBA
I1730 J(xJ1,J2a,J2b2a) Jordan_EBA

+ both Bronze Age Canaanite graves in Lebanon were J1 and J2 = J-M304


Thats why i said that pred-Semitic Sumerians were likely E1b and T1 dominant, while their conquerors Akkadians were likely J-M304.

However Sumerians and ancient sites in Iraq are not tested for aDNA and this just remains mystery. Also rivers Euphrates and Tigris are very close to where actually Zagros Neolithic J samples were found, so everything is possible. We will see in future.

Can you forget about the Calcolithic T in the levant .....they came and departed from that area and none are there now , they all are gone .....they all belong to the T-CTS2214 ( all 100% of them ) same marker we have in ancient samples in iberia and coastal Morocco ...here are some of the samples ( I can give you all if you like )

Peqi'in Cave ( 6150 yBP - Late Chalcolithic )


I1155
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: K1a
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.09
Other IDs: CHPK021 / S1155.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1160
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: N1a1b
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 308
Other IDs: CHPKL101B-005, CHPKL101B-011 / S1160.E1.L1, S1161.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1165
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: HV1a’b’c’
Sample: Petrous

They are all ( 100% ) CTS2214 in SNP

The detailed paper stated they came into the levant from the North ( eastern Anatolia )

lets move on ...........the J1 came via sumerians in the upper parts of the persian gulf......or what they call "Arab marshes"

The issued I want to speak about is the split between IJ ...............we all know about E and C

 

[Dema]

Can you forget about the Calcolithic T in the levant .....they came and departed from that area and none are there now , they all are gone .....they all belong to the T-CTS2214 ( all 100% of them ) same marker we have in ancient samples in iberia and coastal Morocco ...here are some of the samples ( I can give you all if you like )

Peqi'in Cave ( 6150 yBP - Late Chalcolithic )


I1155
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: K1a
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.09
Other IDs: CHPK021 / S1155.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1160
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: N1a1b
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 308
Other IDs: CHPKL101B-005, CHPKL101B-011 / S1160.E1.L1, S1161.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1165
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: HV1a’b’c’
Sample: Petrous

They are all ( 100% ) CTS2214 in SNP

The detailed paper stated they came into the levant from the North ( eastern Anatolia )

lets move on ...........the J1 came via sumerians in the upper parts of the persian gulf......or what they call "Arab marshes"

The issued I want to speak about is the split between IJ ...............we all know about E and C

Thats not important were they come from. And so what if they are CTS2214 lol? Its T1a haplogroup with fairly high TMRCA. What is important is there was no haplogroup L together with T as you claimed before. Just as can be seen in Chalcolithic Middle East, there is plenty of haplogroup T but not a single L. Therefore your theory that T always moved with L is not right.

Also its clear that Middle East in Epipaleolithic and Neolithic was settled mostly with haplogroup E1b, then in Chalcolithic with haplogroup T1, and finally in Bronze Age haplogroup J1 and J2 both appear in same time and become most prevailing haplogroups.

In Europe same thing, there was no haplogroup J before Bronze Age. Haplogroup I and J had completely different migrations just as T and L had. Therefore no need to mention them together unless we are speaking about period of 40 000 years ago, when eventually they split and lived together for some period of time.

You said that J was in Europe in same time as haplogroup I since they split from IJ, but that is not correct. There was no haplogroup J in Europe before Bronze Age while there is plenty of haplogroup I. I think you should check all available ancient DNA and trying to understand it better before trying to bring conclusions.

Best regards, and take care !

 

[torzio]

Thats not important were they come from. And so what if they are CTS2214 lol? Its T1a haplogroup with fairly high TMRCA. What is important is there was no haplogroup L together with T as you claimed before. Just as can be seen in Chalcolithic Middle East, there is plenty of haplogroup T but not a single L. Therefore your theory that T always moved with L is not right.

Also its clear that Middle East in Epipaleolithic and Neolithic was settled mostly with haplogroup E1b, then in Chalcolithic with haplogroup T1, and finally in Bronze Age haplogroup J1 and J2 both appear in same time and become most prevailing haplogroups.

In Europe same thing, there was no haplogroup J before Bronze Age. Haplogroup I and J had completely different migrations just as T and L had. Therefore no need to mention them together unless we are speaking about period of 40 000 years ago, when eventually they split and lived together for some period of time.

You said that J was in Europe in same time as haplogroup I since they split from IJ, but that is not correct. There was no haplogroup J in Europe before Bronze Age while there is plenty of haplogroup I. I think you should check all available ancient DNA and trying to understand it better before trying to bring conclusions.

Best regards, and take care !

I never said that T and L moved together , I said when they split could not be in the middle east or else they would have been found together in ancient times.............the most likely is they split in south central asia ( some say North-caucasus area ) ...with L initially moving towards the east and India and T moving towards the west and the caspian sea
T samples have already been found in neolithic Europe , at Germany and Bulgaria , 3 in each site .........

same with IJ, if as you say, J did not reach europe until the bronze age, then the split was where ? ...................you cannot just place ancient samples out of the sky into a land you like , you need some sort of trail .................what we know is IJ where together, fact , then they split, fact ..................to say J first appeared in bronze-age Europe to justify some sort of agenda does not cut it

I think we will never agree.............you like to find a grandfather and that is it ..............i like to find a grandfather and then want to know about his father

 

[Kelmendasi]

There was no haplogroup J in Europe before Bronze Age while there is plenty of haplogroup I. I think you should check all available ancient DNA and trying to understand it better before trying to bring conclusions.

J was in fact already present in Europe prior to the Bronze Age.

J2 has been found in multiple Neolithic European sites:
1) J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy
2) J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy
3) J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria, Linear Pottery Culture
4) J2a-SK1363 from Neolithic Croatia, Sopot Culture
5) J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary, Lengyel Culture

2 J1samples have also been found:
1) J1-YSC1262+ from Mesolithic Russia
2) J1-L255+ from Mesolithic Russia

 

[Dema]

J was in fact already present in Europe prior to the Bronze Age.

J2 has been found in multiple Neolithic European sites:
1) J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy
2) J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy
3) J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria, Linear Pottery Culture
4) J2a-SK1363 from Neolithic Croatia, Sopot Culture
5) J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary, Lengyel Culture

2 J1samples have also been found:
1) J1-YSC1262+ from Mesolithic Russia
2) J1-L255+ from Mesolithic Russia

That's true, there was few Neolithic ambiguous J2a samples. Even East European J1 samples that you mentioned.
However, they are few isolated samples in minority among majority of other haplogroups, and few drops dont make a rain : )
Ok, regarding these specific branches of J2a, we can assume they migrated to Europe since Neolithic.
J seems to spread to both West Middle East and Europe in time of Bronze Age or later, at least majority except few ambiguous J2a subclades which seems to migrate earlier regarding Europe.

Now of course, when we say J or rather J-M304, here we include all J1 and J2 subclades. But each major subclade has its own story and probably different migration time and place.
But for now as it seems most of J subclades spread in Bronze Age from Caucasus and Zagros mountains and few of them earlier like Neolithic J2a subclades found in Europe.


Also note that rest of J2a subclades also probably spread in Bronze Age, some of them even with Indo-Europeans and later, while almost entire J1 in Bronze Age or later Roman period. As said few drops dont make a rain.

 

[Dema]

Mesolithic Russian J1 samples are probably earlier Caucasus hunter gatherers that got lost chasing their prey : ) Also they probably liked the plains and different terrain so decided to stay.

Little joking

 

[Dema]

So, regarding Europe, J first appears in Early to Mid Neolithic but also can be seen in pre-IE Bronze Age in form of a fully developed J2a-M410*, in territories of modern Greece, Italy, Croatia, Austria and Hungary. We can assume that they were also partially Neolithic farmers which spread from Anatolia. And before that Mesolithic and Paleolithic Caucasus and Zagros hunter-gatherers.

Then in Middle Bronze Age we have first appearance of J2b-L283. Probably as Indo-europeanised earlier Caucasus and even earlier Mesolithic Zagros hunter-gatherers.
As it seems J2b-L283 conquered territory in Bronze Age primarily focused in Southeast Europe.

Then in Roman time also J1 and J2b-M205 also appear. Mostly from Phoenicians falling under Romans and joining them at the end.

Specifically in Roman Empire J takes considerable percentage where over 50 % of Imperial Romans were various branches of J-M304 haplogroup.

In later periods these percentages will fade down.


In West Middle East, Palestine, Lebanon and Israel, J first appears in Early Bronze Age in a from of fully developed J1 and J2b-M205, but also probably few other J2a and J2b subclades which were not yet found in aDNA but there is strong indications they were there.

So as said earlier. Regarding West Middle East in Paleolithic it was dominated with E1b tribes and in Chalcolithic with mostly T1 and few E1b tribes. But since the Early Bronze Age all samples were J-M304 with earlier aDNA found in Caucasus and Zagros Mountains since 10 000 BCE.


This is how J-M304 brotherhood conquered Middle East, Europe, Caucasus, and Zagros mountains. But also more further territories.

If we go 15 000 years back, all J were probably in range of Caucasus and Zagros mountains living together as various hunter-gatherer tribes. At least it seems the epicenter of J was there.

 

[torzio]

interesting read........................J-Z4133 would be the first confirmed lineage of J-L283 that was north of the Alps as far back as the Late Bronze Age.

https://phylogeographer.com/eleven-j-l283-lineages-of-poland/