Or by late Celts through backflow from the Pannonian-Illyrian sphere.
Or by late Celts through backflow from the Pannonian-Illyrian sphere.
Yes, we should not rule out that possibility. However, the problem is there is zero aDNA J2b-L283 from Hallstatt/La Tène, and there is quite a few samples already. Odds are, J-Z631 being such an expansive subclade, would've been found by now in Central Europe before the common era. Also, in the yet to be published paper, which seems to have a lot of Celtic samples, there is zero J-Z631 as you can see here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...t-al-in-review&p=812982&viewfull=1#post812982
So yeah, at this point it remains a speculation or a hypothesis
Another thing, if you look right upstream of J-Z631, the parallel/brother lineage has been found in the western Adriatic (Chieti, Italy): https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8421/
And nevermind that all other upstream clades have been observed in the western Balkans, starting with J-Y21045 which you correctly pointed out as showing an old diversity in the western Balkans, but I would say not the only such J-L283>Z597 subclade by any means. YFull will not show the whole picture
Anyways, let's wait and see where J-Z631 shows up before the common era..
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Fustan
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Apparently there are quite a few Celtic samples, and none show J2-L283, don't you think we would've had a Celtic J2b2 sample by now?
Since it's been suggested, we're actually working on such a spreadsheet/map for ancient J2b-L283 samples. I'll update the forums when it's available.
Fustan
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I'm so happy to hear that. It's kind of a pain to find them now for me as a layman so I'll be happy to look at the spreadsheet once it's up. I also hope there will be a spreadsheet for ancient R-L23 and E-V13 samples , basically all haplogroups relating to Albanians. Obviously I prioritize the J2b2 spreadsheet since I am an honored member of this haplo myself :wary2: but it would also be nice to have an organized list of the other haplos that make up our ethnicity as well
Ghurier
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That's very interesting ... a lot of J-Z2432 and subclades ...
Is there any list with the GPS coordinates of the samples ?
So yeah, at this point it remains a speculation or a hypothesis
Oh sure, it remains a model, that can be proven wrong.
J-L283 peoples ... probably the best guys at playing hide-and-seek in Europe since Bronze age ...
I very much doubt we'll find any J-Z2432 here (i.e. "the South Asian branch"). So those specific ones are very likely false positives. I've seen this software erroneously assign Y haplogroups to female samples especially.
All there is available right now is the raw data of the ancient samples (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB47891?show=reads), based on which haplogroups and autosomal DNA can be extracted. We'll have to wait until the actual paper is published to get all the other details, which I'm guessing will be soon.
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Yep, that was my main concern ... "teleporting" Indians there in 500BC would be "surprising" (and them having to vanish totally before modern times would be weird too).
Are you familiar with this software ? Because the output sounds not very intuitive to me.
What kind of information is supposed to carry the percentage number between parenthesis ? Some value are negative ...
Is there somewhere a paper with a proper qualification of this tool ?
Like an estimation of the mixing matrix between "reconstructed haplogroup" vs "real ones".
Naïvely, if these individuals are not female as you suggest, could this tool misclassify L283 as Z2432 ?
Should point out that we have more information for some of these samples:
Additionally, I heard there should be around 20 samples from Croatia and a few more from Slovenia included in this paper.
Additionally, I heard there should be around 20 samples from Croatia and a few more from Slovenia included in this paper.
You can also cross check the Y haplogroups by following this and downloading the .txt file: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...on-et-al-in-review/page66&p=812461#post812461
This one should be more reliable, as there isn't any J-Z2432, but overall they're the same.
For the rest, we need to wait until the paper is published..
Fustan
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Regarding the I2a1b sample in this paper, I cannot find where this region "Grofove njive" is. I assume this sample is not related to the Illyrians?
It's hard to say at this point without further information. Iron Age Slovenia had significant Celtic influence, and the samples under R1b-L51 may be just that since it's found in Iron Age France and Netherlands as well.
This I2a is under I2a-M223, so not related to I2a-Y3120 formerly "I2a Dinaric".
Ghurier
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Negative to Z2507, it splitted from the Z631 line around 2400BC. Thus, not relevant for a potential Z631-La Tène relation.
Anyway, this Z597 sample is a very good example to illustrates my position against ancient DNA to track rare haplogroups ... you need to be super-lucky.
If in a large list you find 1 single sample, it is enough to prove that the haplogroup was inside this population. But the likelyhood of missing an haplogroup with the same frequence inside the sampled population is fairly high.
Thus unless finding it somewhere else, the depth of ancient DNA sample is not sufficient to exclude the presence of an haplogroup.
At that time, there is ~20 line of Z631 that will survive until modern day, if I have time, I'll look at similarly diffused R1b subclades to see how many did have ancient DNA coverage (that is a simple way to evaluate the effective depth of ancient DNA sampling).
Yes, this is a good point. J-Z631 TMRCA at ~2800 ybp is kind of young in comparison to most available aDNA samples, so it may not be easy finding it before ~400 BC.
Are you J-Z631 btw? One of my ancestral lines is J-Z631
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I might have missed it upstream in the comments, but the ancient L283 from Albania will be in the following paper:
”The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge Between West Asia & Europe”
According to some users at Anthrogenica, the paper was submitted to Science in August/September for academic review. Maybe we’ll luck out and have it before Christmas. There are some heavy hitters associated with this paper: Iosif Lazaridis, David Reich, and Henry Shephard. Evidently Henry Shephard is “Mr Moldova”, so I’m thinking this paper might shed some light on this rumored L283 from Moldova.
https://ku-dk.academia.edu/DrHenryShephard/CurriculumVitae
This Budjak Culture is from the NW Black Sea region and is in the zone in terms of dates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak
The other big paper hopefully not too far away:
“Genomic Signals of Continuity and Admixture in the Caucasus” from Ghalichi Ayshin.
Lots of samples in this one (more than Wang 2019) with much more sampling from the NW Caucasus. Perhaps this will yield some L283 older than KDC001. There’s some speculation about a sample that dates back to 6100BC with EHG from NW Caucasus. Also, there is some very ancient R1b Z2103 from Dagestan rumored to be in this paper. The author works for Max Planck.
Davidski over at Eurogenes recently took down his old blog entry claiming L283 arrived in Europe with Mediterranean traders from the near East. Disappeared like a fart in the wind. Makes me a tad bit curious as to why he suddenly decided to take it down.
Last but not least, and I’m not sure if it’s of any significance or not, the formation and TMRCA dates for L283 and Z2103 have shifted a bit. For the longest time, Z2103’s downstream Yamnaya associated branches were 3400BCE and L283 (Z622, Z600, YP91, Z2509) were 3300BCE. Now they’ve flopped, with L283 at 3500BCE and Z2103 3400BCE.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z622/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M12149/
”The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge Between West Asia & Europe”
According to some users at Anthrogenica, the paper was submitted to Science in August/September for academic review. Maybe we’ll luck out and have it before Christmas. There are some heavy hitters associated with this paper: Iosif Lazaridis, David Reich, and Henry Shephard. Evidently Henry Shephard is “Mr Moldova”, so I’m thinking this paper might shed some light on this rumored L283 from Moldova.
https://ku-dk.academia.edu/DrHenryShephard/CurriculumVitae
This Budjak Culture is from the NW Black Sea region and is in the zone in terms of dates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak
The other big paper hopefully not too far away:
“Genomic Signals of Continuity and Admixture in the Caucasus” from Ghalichi Ayshin.
Lots of samples in this one (more than Wang 2019) with much more sampling from the NW Caucasus. Perhaps this will yield some L283 older than KDC001. There’s some speculation about a sample that dates back to 6100BC with EHG from NW Caucasus. Also, there is some very ancient R1b Z2103 from Dagestan rumored to be in this paper. The author works for Max Planck.
Davidski over at Eurogenes recently took down his old blog entry claiming L283 arrived in Europe with Mediterranean traders from the near East. Disappeared like a fart in the wind. Makes me a tad bit curious as to why he suddenly decided to take it down.
Last but not least, and I’m not sure if it’s of any significance or not, the formation and TMRCA dates for L283 and Z2103 have shifted a bit. For the longest time, Z2103’s downstream Yamnaya associated branches were 3400BCE and L283 (Z622, Z600, YP91, Z2509) were 3300BCE. Now they’ve flopped, with L283 at 3500BCE and Z2103 3400BCE.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z622/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M12149/
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Archetype0ne
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Polska what black magic is this? You always come up with the best news. These questions I have been bugging members on forums for ages and all of a sudden, as in other instance the answer pops up in your posts.
First:
”The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge Between West Asia & Europe”
This will likely answer the question Gurier pointed out. An interesting thing is if there will be samples from Troy
." Iosif Lazaridis, David Reich, and Henry Shephard. Evidently Henry Shephard is “Mr Moldova”"
This is like the avengers of genetic history ensemble. = ) Moldovan sample autosomal DNA will prove a lot in this! If it is indeed there.
"Also, there is some very ancient R1b Z2103 from Dagestan rumored to be in this paper. The author works for Max Planck."
Maybe Anthony was not wrong after all?! And maybe Provyn can also be right?
This is all very exiting. They are doing peer reviewing for the 2nd month now? Sounds like its quite a substantial paper as far as novelty goes, since if it was in line with previous studies the peer review surely would have been finished by now.
Edit:
PS... Budjak also known as Bessarabia ?
For reference the house of the Draculesti (Vlad Tepes, Vlad the Impaler) was an offspring of the house of Basarab.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Basarab
Ghurier
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This will likely answer the question Gurier pointed out. An interesting thing is if there will be samples from Troy
Hopefully, but I have the bad feeling that if the "spoiled" Moldovan sample pops out, it will be from a late Trypillian site with mixed ancestry (Old-Europe/Steppe)
, it would be too easy to get a clear solution.
Archetype0ne
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Hopefully, but I have the bad feeling that[/COLOR] if the "spoiled" Moldovan sample pops out, it will be from a late Trypillian site with mixed ancestry (Old-Europe/Steppe)
Well it was me and you who in our previous posts were hoping for more samples
But nonetheless, this paper for sure will bring us closer to consensus.
If the Moldovan sample is found in it, it depends on the age. If its 6000bp... If it has even a tiny bit of steppe... well then the conclusion is obvious. Given the MRCA of L283.
But I am more interested in Troy tbh, it there will be samples from Troy! Since these likely might be the first wave of IE... the ones that ended up in Asia Minor. But I am speculating just off of my wishful thinking, since I have no clue if samples from Troy even exist.
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For sure I would "love" a 6000BP sample, either Trypillian or Steppe related, because, yeh, it would mainly close the discussion.
But I'm not rising my expectations too high, if something appears I expect it to be in the range 5500-5000BP.
We just have to wait and see ... first if something pops out, and then what it says
.Possibly you are right, but another possibility is that it was only present in the Eastern groups of Celts and so few made it further West, initially, that you need thousands of samples or good luck to find it.
E-V13 won't be as rare, but still concentrated in Alpine Celts and Celticised populations from the Alpine-Danubian and North Italian area. As usual, a major problem for various groups in this context is that they cremated their dead at different times.
That's part of the Unterkrainer group of Eastern Hallstatt, which practised the Illyrian burial rite and social rules. To their North were Daco-Thracian/Basarabi dominated groups, like Kalenderberg and Fr?g, but also further up the Danube and towards Czechia. This was how E-V13 spread, whereas other groups being more Illyrian influenced, like this individual from the Unterkrainer group.
Moldovan Scythians seem to be mostly the result of Daco-Thracians just adopting Scythian ways (Geto-Scythians) and they being heavily shifted towards BGR_EBA. There is however one outlier which plots more similar to the more G?va derived Thraco-Scythians in Hungary and the mixed Ukrainian ones. So there most likely was a "nest" of Southern backmigration through Psenichevo-Basarabi in Moldova. Both to their left (Pannonia) and their right (Ukraine) the mixed Daco-Thracian and Scythian groups look more like mixtures of F?zesabony-Kyjatice-G?va, but in that area, BGR_EBA/Aegean ancestry seems to have played a role.
Its unresolved whether that is how Daco-Thracians generally looked, or just the Eastern group. Because I recently read that the Channelled Ware in Bulgaria being directly connected to the Northern G?va-Holigrady groups, not Belegis II-G?va in the Tisza-Danubian sphere (Western Romania-Eastern Hungary-Serbia and downwards to Greece with expansion grups). So the Eastern Channelled Ware network connected Bulgaria with Moldova.
Let's see how this pans out.
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