J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Riverman said:
Well, I realised that we have already some autosomal profiles, even if just singular samples from rather irregular burials, so with some uncertainty, from F�zesabony/late Otomani, Kyjatice and G�va. All three show a clear pattern, being more Corded Ware/Beaker shifted than the J2b block of Illyrians, all three having a pull towards WHG.
In the new British paper are 4 E-V13 samples, they are all on different positions, but essentially along a cline of F�zesabony (most Corded-shifted) to BGR_IA/MDA_Scythians (Least Corded-shifted), together with other Neolithic haplogroups and R-Z2103, which mixed Balkan samples (Southern pulled) are in some respects intermediate between E-V13 and J2b in position, so between West and East Balkan. The E-V13 being split between Pannonian and East Balkan, J2b is West Balkan.
So I think my thesis of E-V13 spreading on both sides of the Carpathians is well and alive, even though so far only the Eastern pathway is well-proven with Psenichevo and the Basarabi related finds. If its early on both sides of the Carpathians, regardless of where it was before, E-V13 must have spread with G�va/Channelled Ware. We need the context of the samples, but going by their autosomal profile, it looks that way I'd say.
And the only proven E1b1b heavy group in the later Neolithic period being Lengyel, secondarily Michelsberger. Lengyel and Michelsberger were connected, because Lengyel did colonise early deep into Southern Germany, Michelsberger later moved to the East also.
The Lengyel samples are older
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...I&ll=47.38747731264397,17.143077896289014&z=7
And could have spread over the Danubian pathway.
Also, recently read that exactly where F�zesabony, Kyjatice and G�va were coming up, in the Northern Carpathians, Lengyel survived the longest, and they were reknowned miners and metallurgists to their end. Same goes for F�zesabony and Kyjatice-G�va. If there a Northern Pannonian cluster is real, which contains R-Z2103, E-V13, J2a, H and I2, it would fit into the scheme for a mixed group with Lengyel elements in included.
The new Verteba paper adds another possibly G�va related (female) individual to this North Pannonian cluster and it adds that in the Pannonian-Carpathian-Ukrainian zone a WHG pulled Neolithic population existed, which we later see in Mako. And this population brought up, by mixing with Epi-Corded and other Neolithics, this North Pannonian cluster. So there is definitely something going on in the North Carpathians and this mixed group did expand two times, first with Unetice, second with Urnfield. The unusually high WHG in the Tollense samples might be related to this too.
Click to expand...
Thank you, I seem to have missed this Verteba paper and this British paper, as I haven't been on in a while, is there a link to the 4ev13? They are autosomally plotting corded ware like?
 
Johane Derite said:
Thank you, I seem to have missed this Verteba paper and this British paper, as I haven't been on in a while, is there a link to the 4ev13? They are autosomally plotting corded ware like?
Click to expand...

No, one plots like F?zesabony, so more Corded Ware than G?va and Kyjatice, one plots close to G?va-Kyjatice, but somewhat more Southern (like where I would expect Eastern Hallstatt), a third looks more ancient, Mokrin like, but could very well be from the Central Balkans and a 4th is East Balkan oriented, so either from Bulgaria or close by, or, that's where he plots closest, related to Moldovan "Scythians". There was already one Geto-Scythian with a similar profile which was E-V13 from Glinoe.

I wrote about it here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41672-To-burn-or-not-to-burn-LBA-EIA-Balkan-case/page8

Sorted coordinates from rafc:
Sample_name Hg Coords (scaled)
I16272 E1b1b1a1b1~ Celtic_paper:I16272,0.125205,0.132019,0.062602,0.0 62985,0.041854,0.013945,-0.001175,-0.000923,0.008385,-0.005103,-0.012829,0.00015,0.000595,0.008808,0.012758,0.0059 67,-0.00339,-0.001267,0.000628,0.012631,-0.000499,0.004575,0.000246,-0.003735,-0.00491
I18527 E1b1b1a1b1~ Celtic_paper:I18527,0.122929,0.142174,0.04714,0.02 7778,0.042162,0.003068,0.00094,0.004154,0.018612,0 .013303,-0.01494,0.003897,-0.008474,0.001376,-0.004207,-0.003978,0.000913,-0.0019,0.002388,-0.003252,-0.003119,0.004575,-0.000739,-0.012532,-0.007185
I18832 E1b1b1a1b1a Celtic_paper:I18832,0.121791,0.149283,0.019987,-0.024871,0.029852,-0.010319,-0.002585,-0.003,0.009817,0.030433,-0.002598,0.004946,-0.015758,-0.005367,-0.024294,0.002121,0.025295,0.006841,0.008296,-0.007379,-0.016471,0.000618,0,0.008555,-0.001916
I14465 E1b1b1a1b1a20~ Celtic_paper:I14465,0.132035,0.145221,0.041483,-0.004199,0.047393,-0.009761,-0.00564,0.006692,0.01084,0.02041,-0.005196,0.01094,-0.01115,0.00812,-0.009908,-0.009679,0.011995,0.000127,0.006662,0.009379,-0.004243,0.006801,0.000493,-0.021087,-0.001317
I22940 J2b2a1 Celtic_paper:I22940,0.124067,0.152329,0.036581,-0.00646,0.039392,0.002231,-0.001175,0.000692,0.017794,0.034078,0.004709,0.007 343,-0.023042,-0.002752,-0.0038,-0.023203,-0.01356,0.005954,0.006913,-0.000125,-0.006738,0.001731,-0.003451,-0.004217,0.002634
I24345 J2b2a1 Celtic_paper:I24345,0.122929,0.147252,0.064111,0.0 20672,0.035699,-0.021475,0.015746,0.009,-0.001841,0.016401,-0.007795,0.005995,-0.048463,-0.018029,-0.005836,0.001724,-0.028684,0.012542,0.00905,-0.016008,-0.010232,-0.004451,0.003451,-0.009881,0.003592
I5691 J2b2a1a1a~ Celtic_paper:I5691,0.129758,0.146236,0.043369,0.00 6783,0.044008,-0.000837,-0.002585,-0.000231,0.012885,0.028429,0.002761,0.008243,-0.016501,-0.011423,0.002443,-0.001989,0.004433,0.00228,-0.002137,0.002001,0.000374,0.006925,-0.000616,0.001687,0.000239
I26726 J2b2a1a1a1a1a Celtic_paper:I26726,0.121791,0.14319,0.029038,-0.013243,0.024928,-0.000837,-0.006345,-0.006461,0.007772,0.027518,0.013803,0.004796,-0.023191,-0.00289,-0.002172,-0.014452,-0.013951,0.003167,0.013575,-0.008129,-0.003743,0.008656,0.005546,0.003976,-0.000479
I23911 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I23911,0.126344,0.140143,0.032432,-0.005814,0.044316,-0.002231,-0.004935,0.002077,0.012271,0.038999,0.000325,0.010 94,-0.012042,-0.007432,0.005157,-0.005701,-0.001565,0.004687,0.011439,-0.004627,0.001872,0.001237,-0.002588,-0.002771,-0.005269
I24638 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I24638,0.129758,0.149283,0.033564,0.0 04845,0.038161,0.005857,0.00705,0.010846,0.011453, 0.028793,0.001949,0.011839,-0.020812,-0.008533,0.002172,-0.000796,0.002608,0.008108,0.006662,0.003001,-0.007612,-0.001978,0.002218,-0.012291,-0.003113
I24639 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I24639,0.124067,0.149283,0.028284,-0.002261,0.031083,0.000558,0.000705,0.005077,0.007 976,0.022962,0.001299,0.006594,-0.01115,-0.004542,-0.00475,-0.005171,-0.014342,-0.005574,0.004022,-0.005127,-0.0141,0.004822,0.003328,-0.006145,0.005987
I24882 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I24882,0.133173,0.146236,0.033941,0.0 01615,0.040931,-0.006972,-0.000235,0.000231,0.002863,0.019135,-0.000325,0.01169,-0.016204,-0.005367,-0.0019,0.00305,0.009257,-0.001014,0.007416,-0.006753,-0.003369,0.008285,0.001972,0.00976,-0.009101
I26742 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I26742,0.122929,0.148267,0.024136,-0.010013,0.034776,-0.003068,0.000705,0.000692,0.010431,0.032256,0.004 222,0.006444,-0.024083,-0.012524,-0.006515,0.00358,0.00691,0.00076,0.012947,-0.010255,-0.002496,0.001607,0.00419,0.011447,-0.006826
I4998 J2b2a1a1a1b~ Celtic_paper:I4998,0.118376,0.161469,0.016216,-0.022287,0.034776,-0.009203,-0.003525,0.001615,0.01268,0.028247,0.003573,0.0041 96,-0.019772,-0.008533,-0.010315,0.01074,0.025686,-0.004181,0.003897,0.011881,-0.002496,0.006677,0.007272,-0.000723,-0.008502
I23995 J2b2a1a1a1b2~ Celtic_paper:I23995,0.122929,0.146236,0.026021,0.0 01292,0.036007,0.002231,0.00564,0.000692,0.009204, 0.026242,-0.007795,0.009142,-0.014866,-0.00234,0.000271,0.001458,0.005476,0.007601,0.0084 22,0.004002,0.000125,-0.003215,-0.003574,-0.005061,0.000718
I0371 R1b1a1b1b Celtic_paper:I0371,0.124067,0.097491,0.041483,0.10 9821,-0.022158,0.04769,0.00846,0.000231,-0.050926,-0.067792,-0.002111,-0.003447,0.004906,-0.018992,0.027416,0.005834,-0.011604,0.00228,-0.002514,0.007128,-0.004367,0.003586,0.002095,0.020244,0.002994
I17312 R1b1a1b1b Celtic_paper:I17312,0.126344,0.125926,0.058454,0.0 31654,0.041854,0.016455,-0.004465,0.021691,0.009817,0.003098,0.000325,0.002 098,-0.000743,0.007294,0.007057,0.005436,0.006389,0.011 529,0.013827,0.005002,0.003993,0.009645,-0.007765,-0.001325,-0.002275
I0231 R1b1a1b1b3a Celtic_paper:I0231,0.119514,0.080227,0.043746,0.11 2405,-0.033237,0.053268,0,-0.006231,-0.055017,-0.074717,-0.001949,0.002398,0.003271,-0.023121,0.03203,0.019225,0.007302,-0.00152,-0.002765,0.012256,-0.005241,-0.004328,0.005053,0.011206,0.002754
I0438 R1b1a1b1b3a Celtic_paper:I0438,0.121791,0.085304,0.045254,0.11 9188,-0.030159,0.046854,0.002585,0.001846,-0.063402,-0.077633,0.001949,0.005245,-0.010258,-0.029314,0.030401,0.002121,0.004172,-0.005068,-0.008673,0.018884,0.002121,0.00643,0.014173,0.0231 36,-0.007664
I0440 R1b1a1b1b3a Celtic_paper:I0440,0.127482,0.091398,0.040352,0.11 079,-0.033237,0.045459,0.00705,0.004384,-0.05604,-0.077268,0.002273,0.001199,-0.002973,-0.013074,0.035966,0.005436,-0.011343,-0.005701,-0.010559,0.009505,-0.001747,0.002844,0.012202,0.022533,0.001317
I13467 R1b1a1b1b3a Celtic_paper:I13467,0.124067,0.122879,0.055814,0.0 84303,0.012002,0.032072,0.002585,0.006461,-0.015748,-0.037723,-0.001461,0.002548,-0.011893,-0.010872,0.029044,-0.009281,-0.017471,0.001267,0.003645,0.007128,0.002745,-0.001731,0.003204,0.010242,0.001078
I4996 R1b1a1b1b3a Celtic_paper:I4996,0.132035,0.145221,0.04978,0.022 61,0.044931,0.016176,0.00188,0.005538,0.01718,0.01 4579,-0.005521,0.006294,-0.007582,-0.006606,-0.003257,0.008618,0.002347,0.003041,0.010559,0.000 875,0,0.000866,0.008751,0.004699,0.001078
I14983 R1b1a1b1b3a1 Celtic_paper:I14983,0.127482,0.144205,0.056568,0.0 323,0.042777,0.008367,0.004465,0.004846,0.009613,0 .006743,-0.002923,0.005245,-0.013825,-0.012248,0.008007,0.005304,0.004303,0.003421,-0.002137,0.005628,0.018093,0.014838,0.007272,-0.000482,0.005987
I23207 R1b1a1b1b3a1a Celtic_paper:I23207,0.124067,0.153345,0.047517,0.0 10659,0.048624,0.001116,0.00188,0.001385,0.016362, 0.023508,0.002923,-0.001349,0.001338,0.00578,-0.0095,0.017369,0.02047,-0.003801,0.00264,0.005628,0.00287,0.007543,-0.006902,-0.016629,0.000359
I23209 R1b1a1b1b3a1a Celtic_paper:I23209,0.126344,0.149283,0.036958,-0.006137,0.042777,-0.010319,0.00141,0.001615,0.003272,0.024784,-0.003735,0.006744,-0.014866,-0.005918,-0.012622,0.006762,0.02047,0.001014,0.013198,0.0077 54,-0.010232,0.005935,-0.005423,-0.008917,0.003712

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18885-A-theory-about-the-origin-of-E-V13&p=814369&viewfull=1#post814369

The exact subclades are not always safe of course, but the general grouping is fairly safe at this point.
 
Galaxy Overlord said:
Is this proven by direct descendant DNA testing? like the House of Lubomirski was proven to be J-L283 via a family tree direct descendent. Or is this jsut a theory based on various men of similar surname or claimed descendence?
Click to expand...

It is based of a scientific study of male lines. But they were not homogenous.

file

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803#s2


The fact that it is the most numerous (9 samples), as well as the only Basarad haplogroup spread in more than one region geographically, while at the same time being a haplogroup not typical of the area lends credibility to the House of Basarab, and with it the house of Draculesti (Vlad the Impaler) having been L283. Nonetheless this is not conclusive, barring the analysis of confirmed Basarab Princely bones.

Both E-V13 and L283 are way overrepresented compared to Romanian baseline. The issue is that 9 of the L283 samples are of the same branch, whereas V13 is split in 3 different branches. I came to know of this and to this conclusion from Asprug, a member very knowledgeable on V13 being one himself, and he was leaning to wards this paper hinting at L283 being the Basarab haplogroup.
 
Riverman said:
Do you know which branches = subclades?
Click to expand...

Not really sure. Maybe Aspurg might know.

"None is an exact haplotype match, and these coincidences may be caused either by sharing a recent common ancestor with the Basarab, or by the homoplastic nature of STR mutation. Three Basarab founding lineages are found in haplogroup E1b1b1a2-V13; if they were considered together, their joint age would be 1740±615 years, well beyond the establishment of the Romanian nobility. Similarly, if the two lineages in haplogroup I2a-P37.2 were pooled, their joint age would be 960±480 years, or 250 years before the actual founding of the Basarab dynasty. Only Basarab individuals were considered in the age estimations."
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803#pone-0041803-t002

There is a table with DYS values in that link, maybe that is a way to find out. But as you can see the above analysis kinda points out to the impossibility of those three branches having split after the first Basarab Noble created the line.
 
Riverman said:
I was going for Lengyel for quite some time now if you read my posts from the last weeks. But E was there too, just a minority. But this could have been a Western migrant, even more so since they had connections to the Carpathian zone. Lengyel was in the Carpathians and it has proven samples with E1b1b. Even the Michelsberger samples might be closer connected to Lengyel colonisation of the Southern German-Danubian zone, rather than vice versa, though this is debatable.
But the example of Lengyel-Sopot also shows how careful we must be, because in the Southern Sopot samples which came out recently, not a single E was found! They were all closer to the Middle Danube-Balaton area:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...ll=46.983580749742856,18.115367935351514&z=10

So especially widespread cultures need more careful sampling, even more so if they being found to be quite diverse already (like Lengyel-Sopot was).
Click to expand...

Odds for Lengyel look minimal as well. The Tisza Culture from North Carpathians have 0% E-L618. They belong to G2a and I2a. Just as Trypillian Neolithics didn't carry J2b2-L283, again they are a mixture of G2a and I2a.
 
Hawk said:
Odds for Lengyel look minimal as well. The Tisza Culture from North Carpathians have 0% E-L618. They belong to G2a and I2a. Just as Trypillian Neolithics didn't carry J2b2-L283, again they are a mixture of G2a and I2a.
Click to expand...

There might have been up and down migration along the Tisza multiple times, but I wouldn't be sure about the North Carpathians yet, the samples are rather limited - the more F?zesabony-like sample might be really interesting in this respect.


In this context, here is a short but quite telling video about the Carpathian Late Bronze Age - no ancient DNA, but important hints nevertheless:

There is also a graph showing the cultural formations by period up to the Late Bronze Age:

Gava-OF-INCINERATION-BURIALS-AND-FUNERARY-METALS-DURING-LBA-IN-THE-EASTERN-CARPATHIAN.jpg


https://ibb.co/T1Z18xf

Screenshot from: OF INCINERATION BURIALS AND FUNERARY METALS DURING THE LATE BRONZE AGE IN THE EASTERN CARPATHIAN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0duSqW6aHQo

Berkesz-Demecser, also sometimes included Csorva and Suciu de Sus, being among the "pre-G?va" cultural formations and Lăpuș II being basically seen as G?va so we have this group of cultures out of which G?va and Channelled Ware in the wider sense develops concentrated in the Upper Tisza and North Western Transyvlanian, generally North Pannonian-Carpathian zone. Very important notes from this lecture are the richness of Lăpuș in particular as well as the very early MBA-LBA usage of iron in these groups.

Note that all early iron finds he brought up in the lecture come from the region of G?va, with sites like Demecser, Igrita and Lăpuș! They were definitely among the pioneers which used iron in this whole macro-region. The only exception was the site of Bobda.

Bobda being part of the so called Corva-Bobda I type:

Following the geographical disposing of the archaeological sites, in concordance with the evolution phases of the Cruceni-Belegi? culture, there were noticed few spreading directions. The causes of that movement of populations of Cruceni-Belegi? type were, probably, of economic order (the contacts with the Mycennean world) and they were maybe the result of a pressure coming from the Pannonian Plain (the so-called ?elements of Cs?rva-Bobda I type?
Click to expand...

https://de.scribd.com/document/84907405/THE-RELATIONS-OF-THE-CRUCENI-BELEGIŠ-CULTURE-WITH-THE

So the only more Southern iron find being because of an intrusive element coming down from the Pannonian plain.

About a more generalised view:

The earliest urnfields are observable in the north-eastern area. No Tumulus cultures existed on these territories in the Middle Bronze Age, or were only a marginal expression of the cultural and historical development, for example in the upper Tisza Basin, south-central Slovakia, and the hilly areas of northern Hungary. As far as geography and chronology are concerned, the south-eastern urnfields can be divided into western and eastern parts, and earlier and later phases. The western region saw the rise of the Piliny and Kyjatice cultures, while the Suciu de Sus, Berkesz-Demecser, and G?va cultures occupied the eastern part.
If we ignore the earlier cremation burials of Vatya and Hatvan cultures, the Piliny culture is the earliest Urnfield culture in central Europe, running from Bz B1 to Ha A1.
[...]

Taking into account both settlements (Vcelince) and cemeteries (Tornala) of the early period (Bz B1, the Otomani-Piliny horizon), the area over which the culture crystallised was small.
Click to expand...

https://books.google.de/books?id=hefUAAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
Does anyone know what Albanian tribes have the largest percent of J-L283?
 
Last edited:
Trojet said:
Here is a map/database that contains all the published ancient J2b-L283 samples. Will try to update it as new samples are published:


https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1luwBVUlmGoqbj7yzO2tyKKIJlvh7mtQX&usp=sharing
Click to expand...

Well done!

Not sure if a list/excel with age, location, paper could also be helpful.
An absolute boon would be links to the BAMs / G25 coordinates.

I could try to find the G25 coordinates, a bit harder to find the BAMs as I never really looked into those things.

With these addendums this would be the go to tool as far as ancient L283 goes!
 
Fustan said:
Excellent work Trojet! I was wondering though if some are missing like wasn't there a J2b2 Viking and the recent Slovenia sample?
Click to expand...

Good catch! I'm missing the two medieval J-Z631>Z1043 samples (KRA010, Germany and VK346, Sweden). Will add them too. The Iron Age Slovenian sample is not published in a paper yet. I'll add him as soon as published, along with the other samples from that upcoming paper.

Archetype0ne said:
Well done!

Not sure if a list/excel with age, location, paper could also be helpful.
An absolute boon would be links to the BAMs / G25 coordinates.

I could try to find the G25 coordinates, a bit harder to find the BAMs as I never really looked into those things.

With these addendums this would be the go to tool as far as ancient L283 goes!
Click to expand...

If you click on each sample on the map, you should actually be able to see all those details. So I don't think such list/excel is needed at this point.

Yeah, G25 coordinates would be useful. If someone is willing to find and send them to me, I can add them.
 
Interesting, maybe a similar map for E-V13 would be nice, if not made already.

Great work.
 
Trojet said:
Some prominent Albanian J2b-L283 tribes:
Click to expand...

Are there any studies that have shown the percents of J-L283 among the various tribes? I'm trying to find which tribe(or tribes) has the highest percent.
 
Galaxy Overlord said:
Are there any studies that have shown the percents of J-L283 among the various tribes? I'm trying to find which tribe(or tribes) has the highest percent.
Click to expand...

The problem is with the question. The way tribal society worked/works in North Albania is fully patrilineal (barring non paternal events/adoptions due to no offspring).

Meaning each tribe has one genuine Y-DNA.
So the question about percentages does not really apply here.
It is sometimes hard to grasp this as bona fide tribal societies are few in the west. But think of the clans in Scotland / Ireland, it should be similar.
 
Hmm... given FTDNAs database is quite bigger than Yfulls. Ph2ter mentioned the data is from FTDNA database.

This is quite significant

kAT6raD.png


Look at all that L283 around Swiss/SW Germany/SE France.
 
torzio take your medication and get out of my thread thank you
 
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