J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Hawk]

Perhaps a bit of memory problem on your part. He is the one that fearsomely opposed anyone who claimed that Cetina may have carried L283. He believed Posusje and Cetina were two different cultures that never mixed like water and oil, while Posusje being L283 and Cetina V13

To me it looks you messed up two different persons, it was Aspurg/Huban who said that not Aspar.

 

[hrvat22]

If for now we can say that J2b2-L283 is proto-illyrian, what about E1b-V13 and R1b branches?
If we look at the bigger picture of Albanian E1b-V13 branches there exist some Bulgarian connections which could say that E1b-V13 branches in Illyrian time exist somewhat east of Croatian areas towards Kosovo and Bulgaria.

It is interesting that for now E1b V13 Albanian branches if we look at YFull have more points of contact with Bulgaria than with Greece.

Also if we follow the genetics of Bosnian Croats they have 1% of J2 which says (if we use living genetics) that the newly arrived Slavs ie Croats are not really mixed with Illyrians while Bosnian Serbs have 9% of J2 which means that they come to Bosnia from an area where exist more of J2 branches, probably from more directions ie Bulgaria, Albania, etc(we will see in the future).

 

[Trojet]

Also if we follow the genetics of Bosnian Croats they have 1% of J2 which says (if we use living genetics) that the newly arrived Slavs ie Croats are not really mixed with Illyrians while Bosnian Serbs have 9% of J2 which means that they come to Bosnia from an area where exist more of J2 branches, probably from more directions ie Bulgaria, Albania, etc(we will see in the future).

You have the same story with other South Slavic nations. J2b-L283 doesn't even exceed 5% among any of them. Bosnian Serbs usually have elevated levels of J2b-M205 (due to a recent founder effect of J-Y22059) which has never been found among any Illyrians. It's interesting that in today's day and age, people still lump "J2" macrohaplogroups together which split over 15 000 ybp...

 

[Trojet]

The first to propose the connection between Cetina and J2b2-L283 was Aspar. Nice catch and analysis.

If you followed forum "Foleja", the first person to propose it was user Kelmendasi back in 2017 when I4331 from MBA Dalmatia was first published. I remember like today, because I thought it was somewhat young for Cetina culture and more likely a "Proto-Illyrian" sample. Well, years later, it seems both of us turned out right :awesome:

 

[hrvat22]

You have the same story with other South Slavic nations. J2b-L283 doesn't even exceed 5% among any of them. Bosnian Serbs usually have elevated levels of J2b-M205 (due to a recent founder effect of J-Y22059) which has never been found among any Illyrians. It's interesting that in today's day and age, people still lump "J2" macrohaplogroups together which split over 15 000 ybp...

I mentioned and Bulgarian conection ("probably from more directions ie Bulgaria....."). And there is included J2b-M205 which stretches from Bulgaria to Croatian Serbs. As for "J2" and "lumping" I used Eupedia for a rough conclusion and because we don't know which branches and how many exist in our area(reduced scope of private dna research).

(due to a recent founder effect of J-Y22059) which has never been found among any Illyrians

Yes, and it says exactly what I said. It is not autochthonous in the Bosnian or Croatian area, but comes very likely with Vlach migrations but from where is not clear. Primarily (in the context of historical records) they could come from direction of Albania, Montenegro etc but genetically from the territory of Bulgaria. And maybe it's something else. In this context, I present the conclusion and mention Bulgaria and Albania, but also and etc.

 

[Wanderer]

because all the major albanian cities where created by corinthian greeks from 730BC

The lands where ruled by macedonian and epirote tribes .............until the romans took it prior to their war against hannibal

The early roman -illyrian wars where in modern Montenegro

The Taulantii originated in modern Montenegro and where pushed into modern Albania , by other illyrian tribes moving south from the north ..............and the eel people of lake Ohrid, came via Budva Montenegro no earlier than 580BC......is their anyone else?

the 3 main Dardanian tribes is where the proto-albanian originate .............their "cousins" are the Paeonians

Most ancient samples of J-L283 are in the balkans within or close to croatia. With most by the adriatic sea. Some found in sardinia. Long before any of those greek cities.
So J-L283 is indeed proto illyrian. Don't know about e-v13 subclades.

 

[1337_]

what are you talking about ?...............are you stressed that I use different names for different sites? ..............you missed a few of my ID's as well,
you need to accept that the true Albanians belong to the ancient Dardanians ..........a land locked people and not a coastal people like illyrians, Italians and Greeks who where all in the Adriatic sea in iron-age times ...............

With these kind of theories, the only one who has nationalistic theories is you. There is nothing that suggests that proto-Albanians were supposedly never coastal people. Might of been driven away from the coast after Roman occupation, Albania with it's mountain terrain would be favorable for where a language could survive.

Dardanians were definitely Illyrians. And there are Albanoi inscriptions found close to their capital Scupi.

In the archaeological record, the Albanoi and Albanopolis have been directly attested on two funeral inscriptions. The toponym Albanopolis has been found on a funeral inscription in Gorno Sonje, near the city of Skopje (ancient Scupi), present-day North Macedonia.^[14] It was excavated in 1931 by Nikola Vulić and its text was curated and published in 1982 by Borka Dragojević-Josifovska. The inscription in Latin reads "POSIS MESTYLU F[ILIUS] FL[AVIA] DELVS MVCATI F[ILIA] DOM[O] ALBANOP[OLI] IPSA DELVS" ("Posis Mestylu, son of Flavia Delus, daughter of Mucat, who comes from Albanopolis"). It dates to the end of the 1st century CE and the beginning of the 2nd century CE. Dragojević-Josifovska added two lines to the existing reading: VIVA P(OSUIT) SIBI/ ET VIRO SUO. Delus Mucati is an Illyrian name and his home region was Albanopolis (domo Albanopoli). Dragojević-Josifovska proposed that like others he had settled in Macedonia from southern Illyria.^[15]

 

[Trojet]

I mentioned and Bulgarian conection ("probably from more directions ie Bulgaria....."). And there is included J2b-M205 which stretches from Bulgaria to Croatian Serbs. As for "J2" and "lumping" I used Eupedia for a rough conclusion and because we don't know which branches and how many exist in our area(reduced scope of private dna research).



Yes, and it says exactly what I said. It is not autochthonous in the Bosnian or Croatian area, but comes very likely with Vlach migrations but from where is not clear. Primarily (in the context of historical records) they could come from direction of Albania, Montenegro etc but genetically from the territory of Bulgaria. And maybe it's something else. In this context, I present the conclusion and mention Bulgaria and Albania, but also and etc.

Fair enough, I just wanted to make the point that we should be careful with regards to which J2 branches to call "Illyrian", when the data nowadays is right in front of our eyes.

 

[mount123]

With these kind of theories, the only one who has nationalistic theories is you. There is nothing that suggests that proto-Albanians were supposedly never coastal people. Might of been driven away from the coast after Roman occupation, Albania with it's mountain terrain would be favorable for where a language could survive.

Dardanians were definitely Illyrians. And there are Albanoi inscriptions found close to their capital Scupi.

The Albanians that are Illyrian off springs were indeed, those that aren't definitely not. There is a clear difference.

 

[1337_]

If for now we can say that J2b2-L283 is proto-illyrian, what about E1b-V13 and R1b branches?
If we look at the bigger picture of Albanian E1b-V13 branches there exist some Bulgarian connections which could say that E1b-V13 branches in Illyrian time exist somewhat east of Croatian areas towards Kosovo and Bulgaria.

It is interesting that for now E1b V13 Albanian branches if we look at YFull have more points of contact with Bulgaria than with Greece.

Also if we follow the genetics of Bosnian Croats they have 1% of J2 which says (if we use living genetics) that the newly arrived Slavs ie Croats are not really mixed with Illyrians while Bosnian Serbs have 9% of J2 which means that they come to Bosnia from an area where exist more of J2 branches, probably from more directions ie Bulgaria, Albania, etc(we will see in the future).

So how can all these J2b2-L283 branches come from Bulgaria when they are found in Western Balkans ? How do you explain the similarity in autosomal DNA ? These samples are quite a good match for Albanians. Even some of the Illyrian samples that cluster like Northern Italians come out like 60%-80% Northern Albanian. I remember years ago that female sample found from Dalmatia she got like almost 80% match with Albania on K36 despite she was not even plotting with Albania.

Can you show us this Bulgarian connection please ? How are the major EV-13 Albanian branches supposedly linked to Bulgarians ? Maybe linked to the Bulgarian Empire ?


Indeed , by Y-DNA South Slavs don't seem very much mixed with Illyrian due to a huge founder effect of I2a1b/R1a.

 

[mount123]

You have the same story with other South Slavic nations. J2b-L283 doesn't even exceed 5% among any of them. Bosnian Serbs usually have elevated levels of J2b-M205 (due to a recent founder effect of J-Y22059) which has never been found among any Illyrians. It's interesting that in today's day and age, people still lump "J2" macrohaplogroups together which split over 15 000 ybp...

My speech, also made that clear to another poster one page ago. Imagine lumping haplogroups together under a macrohaplogroup designation with a formation date of 31600 ybp, total non sense. None of these posts have actually anything to do with J2b-L283 and no one here is obligated to explain what the scientific data, that is available to everyone, says nor the phylogeny of J2b-L283. This is not some uni course for people who don't actually bother about the content of a lecture

 

[broder]

To me it looks you messed up two different persons, it was Aspurg/Huban who said that not Aspar.

Ah yes, you quoted him so I thought you were saying Aspurg lol

 

[mount123]

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[1337_]

The Albanians that are Illyrian off springs were indeed, those that aren't definitely not. There is a clear difference.

Well, there are also Vlachs who have been assimilated into Albanians so EV-13 could be a Vlah Y-DNA ? Maybe all these EV-13 Albanians are Albanized Vlachs ? or Albanized Gogs ? Not that I know much about EV-13 Vlachs or how much EV13 they got.

Doesn't mean it was proto-Albanian just because some branches are found in Bulgaria or anywhere else. Vlachs lived in Western Bulgaria, Eastern Albania, Kosovo, Southern Serbia, Herzegovina, Montenegro etc. Some of these branches could of come with different populations.

 

[mount123]

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[hrvat22]

.....

So how can all these J2b2-L283 branches come from Bulgaria when they are found in Western Balkans ?

I was speaking in general and explained in the previous comment. I mentioned J2 in the context of Bulgaria and etc. In context of Bulgaria is J2b-M205. I also used the historical context(Vlach migration) because we do not live in time when genetics has 100% shown that something is correct and final. In this context I also mentioned Albania and etc.

These samples are quite a good match for Albanians.

Probably yes, I did not dispute that.

Can you show us this Bulgarian connection please ? How are the major EV-13 Albanian branches supposedly linked to Bulgarians ?

If archaeogenetic data show that E1b V13 branches are not exactly(in large numbers) in the proto-illyrian area(western Balkans) and time, then at this moment we would have to use living genetics and the epicenter of E1b V13 in the Balkans, which is the area of Kosovo. Also we use and YFull in which a possible connection with Bulgaria is visible (in some common ancestral or brother mutations). If we use this for some conclusion then conclusion is that E1b V13 peoples in Illyrian time or early Illyrian time live somewhere further east. Where exactly I don't know, but possibly around Kosovo or towards Bulgaria or hilly Albania. But Illyria is also here. It is possible that there were separate groups in early Illyrian time, towards Croatia one group, towards Albania and Bulgaria other group, etc. I am expressing my opinion, which is open to criticism.

Maybe linked to the Bulgarian Empire ?

Maybe it's about time of Bulgarian Empire but then the genetic links would be stronger, even linguistic ones, etc. It is possible that it is some older connection ie Thracians etc. I don't know the history of that area so I can't claim.

Indeed, by Y-DNA South Slavs don't seem very much mixed with Illyrian due to a huge founder effect of I2a1b/R1a

I think that west Illyrian population fled to the east and may have merged with E1b V13 peoples at that same time. There is also that option. But a new scientific paper says that the Slavs partly assimilated the Illyrians, so the matter is unclear.

If we use Slovenian genetics, which is the purest in terms of migrations in the Turkish era, I don't know how much Balkan genetics would show up in Slovenians. A couple of percentages, that's too little to conclude that the Slavs assimilated the Illyrians or a good part of the Illyrians ie Balkan population.

 

[Oroku Saki]

Do you have a link to this study that references the above sample? This guy looks a bit like my great grandfather.

https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=750458

Only 3 pictures, this one I18747, and sample from another site.

Great catch! Many samples come from pretty degraded remains which don't give us a lot about their physical type.

This one is an exception, also there is a picture of sample I18747, J-Y15058, that is his skull fragment. Stone cyst burials combined with abrasive conditions made sure most of excavated Cetina graves were in bad state.

 

[Oroku Saki]

I was speaking in general and explained in the previous comment. I mentioned J2 in the context of Bulgaria and etc. In context of Bulgaria is J2b-M205. I also used the historical context(Vlach migration) because we do not live in time when genetics has 100% shown that something is correct and final. In this context I also mentioned Albania and etc.

J2b-M205 is connected to the old Kriči tribe. It is also connected to the old family of Ugrenović. So it most definitely arrived from SE. But in Montenegro this cluster is no longer common, and it used to be a shame to claim to descend of them.

If archaeogenetic data show that E1b V13 branches are not exactly(in large numbers) in the proto-illyrian area(western Balkans) and time, then at this moment we would have to use living genetics and the epicenter of E1b V13 in the Balkans, which is the area of Kosovo. Also we use and YFull in which a possible connection with Bulgaria is visible (in some common ancestral or brother mutations).

Peričić et al. which tested 117 Kosovo Albanians, is the source of all claims of "Kosovo epicenter". 14/117 = 12 % belong to E-Y93102 Berisha-Sopi cluster and have a TMRCA of 650 ybp. They only have distant EIA relatives in Bulgaria and Romania, the E-Y60987.

Also 7 (6 %) samples in that study are R-FT25059, like Berisha-Sopi cluster, rare in Albania with TMRCA of 1300 ybp. So these two bottlenecks contributed 18 %, and there are plenty of others as well.

 

[torzio]

It does not matter, how you rule them out?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

republican Rome fought Teuta and the Illyrians of Montenegro ......imperial Rome fought a 4 year war against the illyrians of Dalmatia and Pannonia .............in between they had another 3 wars.

by 68AD the Illyrian race was either dead , enslaved or placed in other parts of the roman empire.

why would the Romans allow the Illyrians to sit around the lands their most important city in eastern Adriatic, ....Durres , a city created by Corinthian Greeks , a city which was the main hub of trade and transport to Constantinople ....it did not

Romans hated the Illyrians the most of any in the balkans , followed by the Thracians and Macedonians .....................it was only the Greeks they tolerated

Albanians are originally proto-dardanian and nothing else at the start ...............and like every other nation took in others as time goes by

 

[Oroku Saki]

J2b-M205 is connected to the old Kriči tribe. It is also connected to the old family of Ugrenović. So it most definitely arrived from SE. But in Montenegro this cluster is no longer common, and it used to be a shame to claim to descend of them.

Bruzmi (Maleschreiber) made Kriči into an Albanian tribe on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

So Dema is proto-Albanian after all. And likely proto-Illyrian, Cetina is J2b..