J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

mount123 said:
Batos' revolts, I've set the apostrophe on the wrong place. Yes, Bellum Batonianum. But certainly the whole process of the "incorporation" of the Illyrian core region into the Roman Empire was brutal to the Illyrian ethnos. Population displacements and replacements followed.
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The Revolt of 6 AD was one of the few occasions where different Illyrian peoples entered in a coalition against a common enemy. The main Illyrians who contributed to the alliance were the Daesitiates, Breuci, Dalmatae, Andizetes, Pannonians, Pirustae, Liburnians and Japodes( the latter two fighting under an unknown leader).[10] The Daesitiates were led by Bato the Daesitiate, while the Breuci were led by their king Pinnes and Bato the Breucian, their army commander.

The Liburnians and the Japodes where led by women and did not participate once the 4 year war began.

see others below who did not participate


and only the purple and yellow areas in map below where in the war
 
Trojet said:
From the newly published "The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe" we have the following J2b-L283 samples:
Hopefully we can get deeper classification for some of the samples once the BAM files are out, especially the MBA sample (~1800 BCE) from Shkrel Albania, but not very hopeful as the coverage is not ideal. Will add them to the J2b-L283 aDNA map then.
Main takes: Cetina sites in Croatia seem to be dominated by J-Y15058>Z38240, where we have the oldest J-PH1602 which is even older than its estimated TMRCA. All MLBA samples from Velika Gruda, Montenegro seem to be under J-Z1297, one of them more specifically J-Y21878 which has also appeared in an "early Iapygian" sample from Apulia, Italy. It shows us that at least some Iapygian tribes have migrated from around modern Montenegro, as expected.
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Since the BAM files have been published, I looked into the raw data for some of these samples. Below are some improvements/corrections.


I8471, 1880-1695 calBCE, ALB_BA, Shkrel, Albania: J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
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He is showing negative at J-Z40052, J-Z38240, and J-Z638. The coverage is not ideal, so assuming the reads are correct, he should either be J-Y146400, J-Z2507*, or J-Z597*.


I17633, 700-400 BCE, Çinamak, Albania: J2b (L283?)
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As expected, he is confirmed J-L283 (SNP calls: Z589+, Z622+). The coverage is too low for anything more specific, but he is showing negative at J-Y21878.


I16253, 658-403 calBCE, Çinamak, Albania: J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
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He can be classified more specifically: J-Y21878>CTS6643>CTS11100>Y37121. (SNP calls: Y37818+, Y106264+, FT29003-, FT34408-, Y110968-, F3754-)


I18746, 2000-1600 BCE, HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia: J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
I18712, 2500-800 BCE, HRV_BA, D. Ostrvica-Pasičine, Croatia: J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
I5073, 1732-1542 calBCE, HRV_BA, Koprivno, Croatia: J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
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The paper implied we got J-PH1602 samples older than its estimated TMRCA. However, all these three are positive to the J-Z38241 SNP with J-PH1602 no coverage. It seems the authors classified them as PH1602 because in an earlier version of the YFull tree, Z38241 used to be part of the PH1602 subclade.


I18830, 500-1 BCE, HRV_Anc, Velim-Kosa, Croatia: J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
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This IA sample is indeed J-PH1602. He is also showing negative at J-Y86930 and J-PH502, which means we have a J-PH1602 lineage further south unrelated to the "Iapydes" J-Y86930 subclade.


I5723, 514-391 calBCE, HRV_IA, Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia: J2b-L283>?
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He is negative at J-Z600. Further, I found that he shares one of YF067770 Private SNPs, namely FT185586, which means he is: J-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586. This is our first ancient/BCE sample from the rarer J-YP91 branch. (I know YFull thinks ORC007 is YP91+, but to me there is not enough evidence considering it's low coverage/one read, combined with no coverage at J-Z600).

As usual, this information has been added to the J2b-L283 ancient DNA map.
 
Galaxy Overlord said:
I have a theory but and I was wondering if you guys think its relevant that the western Balkan samples of Cetina and Maros cultures appear to correlate as both being periphery bell beaker and likely both received migrations from Austria/West Hungary bell beakers.

View attachment 13540
View attachment 13542
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An expansion of J-Z597 as a Bell-Beaker periphery is among top-tier hypotheses for the diffusion of this clade between 2500 and 2000 BCE.
The question from "where" it came exactly (from Eastern-Alps Bell Beaker to Balkanic Vucedol) will likely remain an open question.

After that, the expansion of J-Y15058 and initial diffusion of J-Y21878 match well with the Cetina culture.
This two clades also played a significant role in the demographic boom (around 1300 BCE) linked with the Glasinac-culture.
It is no surprised that this two clades are the one showing-up in that area.
J-Y21045 is probably a little more southern than J-Y21878 by that time.

The J-Z597 diffusion case is now nearly fully solved with the ancient samples we have ... combined with diversity and diversification histories of subclades, nearly all main events are now secured. I said "J-Z597", because J-L283 earliest stages are still largely an open question with very variable possibilities.
My favorite hypothesis remains a "Thyrrhenian sea" diffusion center around ~3000 BCE due to modern diveristy and ancient samples.

There is maybe one last foggy part about J-Z597s : J-Y27522 diffusion.
This clade have yet to be found during BCE times, and its diversification history didn't exactly match the Glasinac-culture demographic boom. We can also note that there isn't the typical "Roman-times" diversity burst entcoutered by identified Balkanic J-Z597s.
It brings the question of "where" were these dudes during Iron-Age, likely not far from the Adriatic but several reasonable options remains.
 
Here we go again with the old Tyrrhenian/Sardinian hypothesis. Even the Southern Arc paper states this:

"J-Z2507 (within J2) is found in 21 individuals. It is part of haplogroup J-M102 for which it was written in 2004 on the basis of present-day samples that: “J-M12 is almost totally
represented by its sublineage J-M102, which shows frequency peaks in both the southern
Balkans and north-central Italy”(471) In the ancient data we find it in 3 samples from Rome,(436) with the earliest being R474.SG (700-600 BCE). All remaining samples are from the Balkans and indeed the Western Balkans (Montenegro, Croatia, Albania) and most of them are from the Bronze Age. Thus, J-Z2507 has a peri-Adriatic ancient distribution in agreement with the present-day distribution and may represent a Bronze Age or later expansion in the area. The immediately upstream nodes of J-Z2507 are J-Z585, J-Z615, J-Z597 with a similar time depth and include two additional Bronze Age samples from Albania and Croatia, and are thus part of the same pattern. J-Z600, the parent node of J-Z585, includes four additional individuals, one of which is from Croatia, and three of which are from the Late Bronze Age Nuragic culture in the island of Sardinia,(20, 453) thus suggesting that this culture included individuals of Bronze Age Western Balkan origin (these might have Italian intermediaries, but we do not detect any J-Z600 in mainland Italy prior to the aforementioned Iron Age sample from Rome)."
 
Trojet said:
Here we go again with the old Tyrrhenian/Sardinian hypothesis. Even the Southern Arc paper states this:

"J-Z2507 (within J2) is found in 21 individuals. It is part of haplogroup J-M102 for which it was written in 2004 on the basis of present-day samples that: “J-M12 is almost totally
represented by its sublineage J-M102, which shows frequency peaks in both the southern
Balkans and north-central Italy”(471) In the ancient data we find it in 3 samples from Rome,(436) with the earliest being R474.SG (700-600 BCE). All remaining samples are from the Balkans and indeed the Western Balkans (Montenegro, Croatia, Albania) and most of them are from the Bronze Age. Thus, J-Z2507 has a peri-Adriatic ancient distribution in agreement with the present-day distribution and may represent a Bronze Age or later expansion in the area. The immediately upstream nodes of J-Z2507 are J-Z585, J-Z615, J-Z597 with a similar time depth and include two additional Bronze Age samples from Albania and Croatia, and are thus part of the same pattern. J-Z600, the parent node of J-Z585, includes four additional individuals, one of which is from Croatia, and three of which are from the Late Bronze Age Nuragic culture in the island of Sardinia,(20, 453) thus suggesting that this culture included individuals of Bronze Age Western Balkan origin (these might have Italian intermediaries, but we do not detect any J-Z600 in mainland Italy prior to the aforementioned Iron Age sample from Rome)."
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There is more -z585 in sardinia actually.
Z2507 is way downstream. For cetina
We also have one z600. But coverage was low i think. Also it says there is z600 but it doesn't say its z600* so its coverage is just likely low. It just says question marks.
 
There is more -z585 in sardinia actually.
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On top of that, the area of Sardinia where the J-L283 have been found during Nuragic times have basically no coverage for previous time-periods between 3500 BCE and the Nuragic samples.
Considering that even during Nuragic times no J-L283 are not found on other sites in Sardinia, it would be weird to expect them on those other sites instead of the area where they were found by Nuragic times.

A Sardinian origin at Z585 level is definitely a possibility (among others), ignoring it when we basically have no "very-old" samples for J-L283 (meaning around ~3000 BCE) is non-sense.
It is not the only "working" solution ... but it has significant arguments in its favor.
Dissmissing this possibility so easily is not really serious.

Anyway, J-L283 have to enter Sardinia a significant amount of time before the Nuragic samples:
1- By that time (Nuragic culture) mainland Europe is full of Steppic admixture ... therefore if a J-L283 arrive in Sardinia they need some time to have their Steppic admixture "cleaned" by locals. Also, the migrating population need to be very small compared to the size of the local population.
2- Considering the Sardinian diversity, it is suspect that such diversity can enter in Sardinia a long time after diversification without a big population (which would make Steppic admixture nearly "un-cleanable").
3- Insular environnement is normally good to produce high-competition between clades ... you therefore expect diverse clades to have less chances to survive in such places than on a whole continent. Not finding some clades outside of Sardinia and having them with big bottle necks is exactly what you would except from a clade stuck on an Island (and in this precise case, we have at least 2 super-old clades, YP113 & YP157, with big bottlenecks, that are purely Sardinian).
4- The "pile-up" hypothesis, if it can work, and is even likely, for some L283 subclades in Sardinia ... start to become cumbersome when all surviving branches of Z585 have to cluster around Tyrrhenian sea and all of them but one have to survive nowhere else (not impossible, but not considering this signal is weird). The whole idea of "pile-up" signal is to have the clades surviving in other regions of the world to inject them on the Island at different epochs (if a clade is rare on the continent it is not likely for this clade to participate to a pile-up signal) ... if found nowhere-else than the claimed "piled-up" signal, such clade is a serious flaw in the "pile-up" theory.

Therefore, without ancient samples from the Z585 diversification epoch (3000 BCE), ignoring the Thyrrhenian-centered signal for this clade is not reasonable and likely is motivated by ideological biases.
I didn't claim it is the only solution ... alternatives do exists. But this possibility have strong arguments, and yet their is no data that are inconsistent with this hypothesis.
 
Guys I just saw this on the j-l283 Facebook group so I’ll repost:

There are 5 new ancient J2b-L283 samples from the August 2022 study "The Anglo-Saxon migration and formation of the Early English Gene pool": https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...899?show=reads (ENA-FIRST-PUBLIC:2022-08-08)

ADN001 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z 8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)

ADN005 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043 (xY32998,Y154639,Y29721,FGC58561,Y36972,Y129853,FT 131786,CTS11760,Y191359,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)

ADN009 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z 8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)

ADN010 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z 8429>A25649>Y12007 (xY12000,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)

S20654 West Heslerton, Yorkshire, United Kingdom; Anglo-Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z638>Z1297 (xY27522,FT29003,Y32373,Y83688,CTS8364,Y166564,Y85 328,Y82184,Z8421)

Don’t see them on the map yet


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I'm surprised at the popularity of Z631 in western Europe. It's downstream of Z638 which seems to be a central/southern Illyrian marker. Plenty of Z631 has been found in modern and ancient times in that region too, so its origin is surely there.

I would think the Slovenian/Northern Croatian clades would be more popular in western Europe, but it seems it's this southern marker that made its stamp.
 
Hawk said:
I agree with Paleo on this one, the non-Slavic part of Croats pulls them to North-Italy so it must be Illyrian/Pannonian-Illyrian, i highly doubt it's Thracian, it's just a calculator-effect.



I doubt it's Sredni Stog, it must be somewhere in North Caucasus which joined some Yamnaya rank (perhaps some northern variants of Maykop Culture), or even latter joiners than Yamnaya (some Bell-Beaker group), also, one must not forget Belotic Bela Crkva, the Early Bronze Age Culture from Western Serbia which might be quite important for J2b2-L283.
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Only samples I have seen so far that cluster like North Italy in Croatia are all from the Bronze Age / Iron Age and even among these there are some Iberian, Albanian and Greek like samples and even Slavic like samples. Later samples I have seen from Croatia are all entirely Greek and Albanian like.
 
Galaxy Overlord said:
Guys I just saw this on the j-l283 Facebook group so I’ll repost:
There are 5 new ancient J2b-L283 samples from the August 2022 study "The Anglo-Saxon migration and formation of the Early English Gene pool": https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...899?show=reads (ENA-FIRST-PUBLIC:2022-08-08)
ADN001 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z 8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)
ADN005 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043 (xY32998,Y154639,Y29721,FGC58561,Y36972,Y129853,FT 131786,CTS11760,Y191359,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)
ADN009 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z 8429>A25649>Y12007>FGC5382 3* (xY16536)
ADN010 Hannover-Anderten, Lower Saxony, Germany; Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>Z8427>Z8424>Z 8429>A25649>Y12007 (xY12000,FT83787,Y155803,Y16536)
S20654 West Heslerton, Yorkshire, United Kingdom; Anglo-Saxon: J2b-L283>Z615>Z638>Z1297 (xY27522,FT29003,Y32373,Y83688,CTS8364,Y166564,Y85 328,Y82184,Z8421)
Don’t see them on the map yet
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This was discussed here about a month ago. That study has not been published yet, only the raw data. I suppose it will be published "soon". In case I miss/missed it, someone please post it.

Those should be ~Early Middle Age samples, btw.
 
Also speaking of samples, why don’t we have any samples from the Romans who died in Teutoburg forest.

Supposedly 16,000 - 20,000 were killed but there are no DNA samples? Have the remains not been found or have they but not been tested?


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There is another basal J2b-L283 Hungarian on YFull id:YF109411 from Fejér.
 
mount123 said:
There is another basal J2b-L283 Hungarian on YFull id:YF109411 from Fejér.
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Yes, but as can be seen in the "live" version of the YFull tree, he forms a new subclade defined by J-Y250639 plus 45 other SNPs with the existing Hungarian from Vas, which means they are not too distantly related, perhaps ~1000 ybp TMRCA.

So currently there is still one "basal" J2b-L283 lineage in Hungary.
 
Tell me you know nothing of the stuff you want to "inform" others about without telling me you know nothing of the stuff you want to "inform" others about. Not even worth being paid a biologist's minimum wage via temporary employment. Ridiculous.
mount123 said:
From the supplementary "info guide":

"Interestingly, rather than in one of the more cosmopolitan trading centres like Groningen, Schleswig, or Copenhagen, we find J2-L228 in Anderten, where the haplogroup peaks due to the presence of a paternally–related kin group of four males. Within England, haplogroup J2-L228 was first observed in a Roman individual from York who originated from the Middle East, as suggested by genomic and isotopic evidence121."

First and foremost, it is J2b-L283 and the oldest aDNA samples are centered in the East Adriatic region (EBA-IA). The J2b-L283 samples from Anderten are autosomally what you would expect from that region of that time and their ancestors are not the result of some 2011 mysterious trade pocket theory but most likely of Roman legionaries with descent from the Western Balkans. The sample from York is not J2b-L283 but J-M205.

I am not exactly sure what that individual thought whilst typing that supposedly "info" text in. Bear in mind it is wrong and complete non sense and on top of that a total butchering of the nomenclature he/she desperately tried to make baseless theories about.
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In regards to maros culture
https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/maros-shows-yamnaya-derived-east-bbc-ancestry-and-local-admixture/

Interesting that they completely ignored the neolithic aegean ancestry in the northern Balkans! And instead focus on yanmaya [emoji849][emoji849]
Intersesting excerpts about this 2100-1800 BC cemetery (emphasis mine):

Ancestry
The individual Mokrin genomes are best modelled as a mixture of Central European hunter-gatherers, Aegean Neolithic farmers and influences from the Eastern European steppes (mean qpAdm tail probability individually 0.46, pooled 0.08).

We observed no significant variation in the eastern European steppe-like component between individuals. Pooling individuals, admixture proportions are estimated to be around 8% (± 1.2% SE) western hunter gatherers, 55% (± 2.5% SE) Aegean Neolithic farmers , and 37% (± 2.3% SE) Eastern European steppe-like population. Quantification of shared drift to other temporally and geographically close ancient individuals via outgroup f3 statistics did not reveal any particularly close affinities, reflecting the genetic homogenization of Europe during the Bronze Age.
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Maybe this is why the more basal ancient J-L283 samples seem to appear in sardinia. Perhaps after the greeks invaded the agean and depopulated the agean islands before repopulating them they migrated and left westward to the adriatic and to sardinia. But its possible some migration was done early before the invasion by the greeks.

The high status of an individual of hg. J2b – likely J2b-L283, a lineage of Balkan/Central Mediterranean Neolithic distribution – as well as other high status burials, together with the lower status* of Yamnaya/Bell Beaker derived R1b-Z2103 (barring potentially sample 243, the nephew of 257B through his mother 257A) points to the increasing relevance of local lineages during the EBA in detriment of the likely ‘original’ Yamnaya/East Bell Beaker-derived patrilineally-related community of the earliest stage of the Maros group.[/b]
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Meanwhile there is no ancient J-L283 present in ukraine!!! Or the baltic!!
 
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani
They were among the oldest Balkan peoples, and their society was very complex.....
Most ancient sources classify Dardanians as Illyrians.[6]Strabo and Appian explicitly referred to them as Illyrians.[7] Strabo, in particular – also mentioning Galabri and Thunatae as Dardanian tribes – describes the Dardani as one of the three strongest Illyrian peoples, the other two being the Ardiaei and Autariatae.[8][9] Dardanians were an 'Illyrian' people[10][11] but not in the same sense of the word as those tribes/peoples dwelling in the central and southern coast of the eastern Adriatic Sea and its hinterland.[12] They shared the same origins and culture with them but they had developed their own distinct social-political formation in Dardania .[13] Dardanians were also related to the Thracians and to Asia Minor.[10] Classical ethnography linked them with the Dardanoi of Troy[14] The ethnic frontier between Dardanians and Thracians was located on the South Morava (ancient Margus) up to the Danube to the north, splitting in two parts the Dardanian region, with the eastern part significantly "thracianized" at a later date.[7] The Thracian tribe to the east of the Dardanians were the Maedi.[15]
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At 2:55 we see ancient testimonial of ancient macadonian/ pelasgians /paeonians [ maros derived culture]

7285accda4d2dab3db91835a72a649d9.jpg
220015fc955e5526614462b8792bcee4.jpg
 
I thought Maros culture comes from bell beaker around east Austria/West Hungary
 

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